How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

Bison44 · April 30, 2022

Maybe a more realistic goal would be "when will we stop being anti-soccer?" I'd almost settle for a neutral response from most people.

ted · April 30, 2022

On 4/26/2022 at 11:09 PM, lamptern said:

When I can't watch both Champions League semifinals on neither of main stream TV channels (they played NBA highlights and world tour pokers instead)

I don't know if that is a metric of a "soccer nation". A competition on a different continent, involving foreign teams with almost no Canadian players isn't interesting to most fans.

I don't disagree with your basic premise, we are not YET a "soccer nation", but we are closer than we ever have been and as Bison44 put it, I'm just glad we are not an "anti-soccer nation" ATM.

On 4/27/2022 at 11:18 AM, gigi riva said:

When you think about it CPL has really only played 2 full seasons in 4 years . But have done some okay things like FORGE having decent runs in Champions League , And Pacific, and Calvary beating MLS teams

Another quibble: we have played one, single "full season" in 2019. 2020 was a truncated season played in a bubble and 2021 was also truncated as we played a bubble to start the season and then played some games in stadiums. IMO you cannot call something a "full season" if not every team plays in every stadium.

On the bigger question, the upcoming World Cup could push us much closer to the status of "soccer nation", especially if we have a good run in the tournament.

WestHamCanadianinOxford · April 30, 2022

10 hours ago, Free kick said:

Ok. I have had multiple streaming subscriptions to watch sports. And for several years now. I have cancelled and renewed some on and off multiple times. Its far from a novelty to me. I have used them a lot. For example, i really could not follow the Olympics were it not for streaming. They certainly have a place in market but their content is still niche. To my earlier point, all the big properties are still on linear service so the question is why? Because that's where the real money still is.

So while everything you say about people not watching television anymore is true. This doesn't apply to live sports. Live sports is the exception. In the case of the EPL they stayed on network TV in the US and that's a market that is 10 times our size. hence it has much more growth potential for the EPL clubs than Canada.

Obviously, the biggest bidder will win the rights and the DAZN wont the rights to Canada. Fair enough, but I still dont see that the EPL have expanded the audience (since that time) for soccer in Canada by doing this deal with DAZN. They have frozen the growth by locking in the audience that's is already there and was created when the games were on Rogers. In the years following the start of EPL on SN, we were starting to see (out in public) huge surge of EPL club merchandize being worn during the summer. I honest don't see as much anymore, or i definitely don't see the growth. I don't hear the same level of workplace conversation etc regarding EPL.

I honestly have to ammend or disagree with a number of your statements.

All the big properties are on linear service and streaming services, because that is were the money is and will be, respectively.

For instance: "According to Verified Market Research, the Global Sports Online Live Video Streaming Market size was valued at USD 18,119.35 Million in 2020 and is projected to reach USD 87,338.11 Million by 2028, growing at a CAGR of 21.26% from 2021 to 2028."

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2021/10/18/2315848/0/en/Sports-Online-Live-Video-Streaming-Market-size-worth-87-338-11-Million-Globally-by-2028-at-21-26-CAGR-Verified-Market-Research.html

Sky is the still the big thing for football in the UK but I get all Sky channels for £40 a month, I get BT free with my phone plan and with the few on Amazon Prime, that is all the Premier League football, I can legally watch.

I know you can watch all NBC's Premier League games on their streaming service in the States. I believe there are other ways to stream them as well, legally.

Beyond football, in Canada's case I believe you can get everything from Sportsnet, TSN as standalone streaming services. I know from friends that all the NFL games, wherever you live, are available streaming.

- Of course for people like yourself, live sport can be the exception but it is not for a lot of people. In fact, most people want to watch sports streaming, if recent market research is to be believed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevemccaskill/2021/07/31/sports-fans-are-ready-to-cut-the-cord-if-streaming-service-can-step-up/?sh=798ca7143eef

"Grabyo’s 2021 Sports Video Trends Report surveyed consumers across 14 countries to determine their video viewing and purchasing habits and found that 79% would watch exclusively on an online streaming platform if they could."

- I honestly cannot accept that you need something on traditional TV for it to grow. I have for over 20 years now, looked to the internet to find new things: answers, news, entertainment and sport. That is even more prevelant with people younger than me.

Again I think overall, your situation is not everyone's and I think most of the data shows there is money to be made now and especially in the future going the other way.

TOcanadafan · April 30, 2022

Here is one more article describing the shift in viewing habits: https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2286611

I don't think we can base whether or not Canada is a soccer nation or not based upon what TSN / Rogers is showing on tv, or promoting through their media coverage. It seems as though the big players (Rogers & Bell) already know they can't compete in the soccer market even if they wanted to at this point. They are just trying to grasp at holding onto the sports they have at the moment and perhaps one day they will have to give these up or drastically rethink their position/roll in the new streaming world.

We also have to understand that the #1 priority of TSN and Sportsnet is to serve their own brand - they will not devote resources to covering sports that they do not air... all of their media coverage (highlights / recap shows, webpage, etc.) is designed to get you to watch their programming... so that you watch the ads that they sell and watch ads for their own products (wireless, tv, and in TSN's case to promote CTV). Compare TSN SportsCentre to SN SportsCentral during the CFL season... CFL highlights are near the top of the show on TSN, while burried at the end of the show on SN. I'm convinced SN would skip CFL highlights altogether if it weren't for MLSE's ownership of the Argos.

We'll get our good share of soccer coverage from TSN in the months leading up to the World Cup, and then once again it'll fade into the background. I'm more interested to see if streaming services start to up their overall media game in the coming years, so that instead of tuning into SportsCentre we watch a Fubo version of the same thing, and start visiting the DAZN website instead of Sportsnet.ca.

Free kick · May 19, 2022

Other examples (non broadcasting related) that we are NOT a soccer nation. Specific to how governments at all levels (as well as local and national authorities) make decisions in favor of certain sports (like hockey) to the detriment of other of sports.

1) A local example from last weekend here in Toronto. Every single TFC game this year (played on Saturday), transit commuters have had to endure the closure of Line 1 subway service between Lawrence and St Clair station due supposedly to construction work on the new line . For commuting, this is hell and easily doubles the commuting time on this line because you have to get off at Lawrence, go out of the station, get in line for a bus, hopefully get on on the first bus, endure a gazillion stops and slow moving traffic...etc. . Didn't happen last weekend, they cancelled the closures. Wondered why? then realized there was game 7 of Leafs-Lightning that night. Hmmm could this have had anything to do with it? Yes, hockey is more popular, fair enough. But there are more people who attend TFC games in person than Leafs games and its the same owner(s) for both teams.

other examples:

2) Travel exemption during Covid: When the Montreal Impact were forced in exile to play all their games in the US (same with The Raptors, TFC, the whitecaps etc.), the Montreal Canadiens managed to get travel exceptions so that they could play their home game in the playoff series with Vegas and the Lightning. Yet, compared to the Habs, Its the soccer team in Montreal that suffers more from the lost revenue due to the pandemic.

3) The forced marriages that were imposed by local governments and agencies with respect to facilities and sharing of facilities for soccer clubs. Why weren't the Whitecaps allowed to get their own stadium and instead forced to play on a surface and facility suited their co-tenant who happens to draw fewer spectators? why does FCE have to cede and share with high school football teams? Why is it that soccer clubs like the old Lynx from the A-league had to play their games in remote, distant and substandard facilities.? could say the same about several other clubs.

4) Tax breaks and public funding. There is a very long list from Saputo's dispute with the City of Montreal to the substandard facilities that owners have to up-keep with their own money while watching the hundreds of millions poured into new NHL facilities in the same cities

+++

Conversely In several other countries, when the national teams play in the World Cup, there is a national holiday on that day. Or at the very least, employers let their employes stay home. Those are soccer nations.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Free kick

InglewoodJack · May 19, 2022

I don’t think Canada can be a soccer nation until we have a solid domestic league. I really hope that the CPL grows over the next few years, but it’s not even close to being a top 50 league in the world. I’d love to see salary caps removed and have a couple benevolent owners invest heavily in the top teams (HFX? Forge?) and model the league after Scotland and Serbia- get two really great teams that can compete in CONCACAF and attract some solid foreign players, and hope that the strong tide raises all ships.

Obinna · May 19, 2022

7 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Other examples (non broadcasting related) that we are NOT a soccer nation. Specific to how governments at all levels (as well as local and national authorities) make decisions in favor of certain sports (like hockey) to the detriment of other of sports.

1) A local example from last weekend here in Toronto. Every single TFC game this year (played on Saturday), transit commuters have had to endure the closure of Line 1 subway service between Lawrence and St Clair station due supposedly to construction work on the new line . For commuting, this is hell and easily doubles the commuting time on this line because you have to get off at Lawrence, go out of the station, get in line for a bus, hopefully get on on the first bus, endure a gazillion stops and slow moving traffic...etc. . Didn't happen last weekend, they cancelled the closures. Wondered why? then realized there was game 7 of Leafs-Lightning that night. Hmmm could this have had anything to do with it? Yes, hockey is more popular, fair enough. But there are more people who attend TFC games in person than Leafs games and its the same owner(s) for both teams.

other examples:

2) Travel exemption during Covid: When the Montreal Impact were forced in exile to play all their games in the US (same with The Raptors, TFC, the whitecaps etc.), the Montreal Canadiens managed to get travel exceptions so that they could play their home game in the playoff series with Vegas and the Lightning. Yet, compared to the Habs, Its the soccer team in Montreal that suffers more from the lost revenue due to the pandemic.

3) The forced marriages that were imposed by local governments and agencies with respect to facilities and sharing of facilities for soccer clubs. Why weren't the Whitecaps allowed to get their own stadium and instead forced to play on a surface and facility suited their co-tenant who happens to draw fewer spectators? why does FCE have to cede and share with high school football teams? Why is it that soccer clubs like the old Lynx from the A-league had to play their games in remote, distant and substandard facilities.? could say the same about several other clubs.

4) Tax breaks and public funding. There is a very long list from Saputo's dispute with the City of Montreal to the substandard facilities that owners have to up-keep with their own money while watching the hundreds of millions poured into new NHL facilities in the same cities

This is interesting to read.

I wonder if there's a Boomer versus Millennial dynamic to this.

Nuance aside, I typically view the struggle to become a soccer nation as Immigrant versus non-immigrant, but all of your examples show the decision makers in this country favour hockey, and the decision makers in society (for now) are the baby boom generation.

The Millennial generation is (I assume) more dominated by immigrants, and (probably) more likely to be soccer fans, and soon will be in the decision making positions of society.

I know there's a ton of assumptions here, and nuance I am probably glossing over, but basically I suspect that with time the demographics will change, the boomers will age out, the millennials will age in, and the examples you provide will be less common.

Obinna · May 19, 2022

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don’t think Canada can be a soccer nation until we have a solid domestic league. I really hope that the CPL grows over the next few years, but it’s not even close to being a top 50 league in the world. I’d love to see salary caps removed and have a couple benevolent owners invest heavily in the top teams (HFX? Forge?) and model the league after Scotland and Serbia- get two really great teams that can compete in CONCACAF and attract some solid foreign players, and hope that the strong tide raises all ships.

It will certainly help, but take a look down south for a second. Is Major League Soccer a solid domestic league? Definitely. Is the United States a soccer nation? I wouldn't say so.

I think attitudes toward the game are just as important as quality on the field, if not more so.

Gian-Luca · May 19, 2022

I'm often tempted to answer this question by citing the distance in kilometers Mexico is from Canada...

Aird25 · May 19, 2022

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

I’d love to see salary caps removed and have a couple benevolent owners invest heavily in the top teams (HFX? Forge?) and model the league after Scotland and Serbia- get two really great teams that can compete in CONCACAF and attract some solid foreign players, and hope that the strong tide raises all ships.

FYI this is the complete opposite of the strategy CPL has chosen, and I struggle to imagine teams from the 10 and 13th largest cities capturing nationwide support and becoming perennial powerhouses. I don't think your strategy really fits this country, particularly with the 3 MLS teams already in the 3 largest markets.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Aird25
Spelling

InglewoodJack · May 19, 2022

15 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

FYI this is the complete opposite of the strategy CPL has chosen, and I struggle to imagine teams from the 10 and 13th largest cities capturing nationwide support and becoming perennial powerhouses. I don't think your strategy really fits this country, particularly with the 3 MLS teams already in the 3 largest markets.

I mean, Green Bay is an NFL powerhouse and is like the 80th largest city in the country. Brighton & Hove is the 45th biggest city in the UK (and half the size of Halifax for example), and they’re in the premier league, etc. Yes, these teams have strong historic cultures, but we’re talking about Canadian cities that don’t have much going on in terms of sports, so I do think there’s an avenue to make these cities for lack of a better word “soccer towns”, especially since the season doesn’t really conflict with the CFL season either.

I’m talking about this on a much smaller scale than Celtic/Ranger or Red Star/Partizan, but if Halifax and Forge who I believe draw 5k a match (I think HFX draws up to 10k? Someone check me on that), maybe there’s potential of kicking it up a notch. I’d like a scenario in which the biggest CPL teams are able to former stars from some second or third tier European leagues and build from there. Let’s see HFX sign an over the hump League One star, or strong players from Finland or Hungary or Greece, etc.

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

It will certainly help, but take a look down south for a second. Is Major League Soccer a solid domestic league? Definitely. Is the United States a soccer nation? I wouldn't say so.

I think attitudes toward the game are just as important as quality on the field, if not more so.

I think North America will always be an exception since both us and the states will always be hockey/football countries even if our teams were top 5 in the world. That said, Atlanta has the 12th best attendance of any club in the world. Charlotte is 25th (out drawing Chelsea and Ajax), Seattle is 36, and Nashville is 45, outdrawing teams like Napoli and Leipzig. Obviously this has a lot to do with stadium size and all, but I think a nation that can make cities like Charlotte and Nashville pretty solid markets, not to mention Atlanta going from not having a team to having one of the best attendances in the world in just a few years tells me that the US is not too far off from being a soccer nation. For this, these clubs needed to build an organic, authentic culture of supporters, not just corporate fans like some NBA or NFL teams. I don’t know the marker for what defines a soccer nation, but I think in our case and the US’, it’s not about being the most popular sport, rather it’s when you start seeing these rich soccer cultures emerge from secondary markets who shouldn’t be able to draw 30k+ to a match, yet they do.

FWIW TFC is 74th, which is obviously our highest attended team.

kacbru · May 19, 2022

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

FWIW TFC is 74th, which is obviously our highest attended team.

Really interesting. Where did you find the list?

InglewoodJack · May 19, 2022

3 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Really interesting. Where did you find the list?

https://www.transfermarkt.us/verein-statistik/zuschauerrangliste/statistik/stat/plus/0?verein=weltweit&wettbewerb=liga

I knew Atlanta drew because they play where the falcons play, but Charlotte outdrawing clubs like Rangers and Chelsea was shocking.

red card · May 19, 2022

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

https://www.transfermarkt.us/verein-statistik/zuschauerrangliste/statistik/stat/plus/0?verein=weltweit&wettbewerb=liga

I knew Atlanta drew because they play where the falcons play, but Charlotte outdrawing clubs like Rangers and Chelsea was shocking.

Charlotte also plays in the NFL stadium. Small sample size in an expansion year, so nothing to be shocked about. For expansion sides and/or new stadiums, the attendance post year 2-3 are more telling.

But Charlotte's stadium is right downtown and also has lots of people from 2 groups in the US that tend to be most attracted to soccer: Hispanics and higher income millennials/Gen Z working in financial services/tech. One of the reasons why it is often used for a Mexican Gold Cup match.

Edited May 19, 2022 by red card

Bison44 · May 19, 2022

4 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I’m talking about this on a much smaller scale than Celtic/Ranger or Red Star/Partizan, but if Halifax and Forge who I believe draw 5k a match (I think HFX draws up to 10k? Someone check me on that), maybe there’s potential of kicking it up a notch. I’d like a scenario in which the biggest CPL teams are able to former stars from some second or third tier European leagues and build from there. Let’s see HFX sign an over the hump League One star, or strong players from Finland or Hungary or Greece, etc.

I think they are up to 6500. Thats topped put, sellout every game, no more, maybe they could get 10k but its not possible. I figured you would know this and would have factored it in when you were talking about how big and what kind of stadiums we should be shooting for in CPL.

InglewoodJack · May 19, 2022

11 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I think they are up to 6500. Thats topped put, sellout every game, no more, maybe they could get 10k but its not possible. I figured you would know this and would have factored it in when you were talking about how big and what kind of stadiums we should be shooting for in CPL.

Where was I talking about stadiums?

Bison44 · May 19, 2022

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Where was I talking about stadiums?

Sorry attendance..and ie stadiums..Halifax cant sign an over the hill star and get big returns when they have already hit a bottle neck with their stadium size at 6500 eh?? The big american cities (and our MLS cities) can throw up 30-50k cathedrals and work that cycle, more money, bigger players, more buzz, bigger club etc etc. Maybe they have built a culture there...maybe not eh?? the old NASL drew pretty good then dissappeared. If we go capless with a few big clubs (ie scottish/serbia) 2 clubs dominate and the rest are also rans, we'll never see other teams win, build a culture, get exposure in interleague play etc. Even in MLS they pretend to try and keep a cap on spending.

Obinna · May 20, 2022

@InglewoodJack Joe Mason fits the profile of an over the hill English League One star.

narduch · May 20, 2022

20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@InglewoodJack Joe Mason fits the profile of an over the hill English League One star.

Damn. That's kinda harsh on Mason.

Obinna · May 20, 2022

30 minutes ago, narduch said:

Damn. That's kinda harsh on Mason.

Don't get me wrong, dude still got it, but if @InglewoodJack wants a scenario where CPL sides sign stars from 3rd tier leagues, Mason is a damn good start if you ask me.