How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Soccer is the top sport in China even if the national team isn't very good. There are also some parts of India like Calcutta and Goa where it's extremely popular as well, so think that's a bit too sweeping a statement. Caribbean nations like Jamaica, T&T and Guyana are arguably better known for cricket rather than soccer in the same way as India is but that hasn't stopped recent immigrants from there making a massive impact on soccer in the GTA and over in the UK.

Basketball is big in China as well, as far as I understand. But yes, your point on the Caribbean and India shows it's not so clear cut. Continued immigration from all of these parts of the world is going to benefit soccer more than hockey, I imagine. That's a good thing in our quest to become a soccer nation. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Obinna

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Cicero The other aspect I forget to mention was that soccer is more affordable and accessible than hockey, so although the Asian immigration is not from soccer countries, the children are more likely to get funnelled into soccer than hockey. Even in our own national team set up players like Raposo, Baldisimo, Metcalfe, and Shome come to mind as players from backgrounds of the countries you mentioned. I am not as big of a hockey fan as I was as a kid (although the battle of Alberta is tempting me back in), so I am not up to date on all the players, but I am going to go out on a limb and say we don't have that same level of representation in hockey that we do in soccer, for what it's worth.

Edit: Shome's background is actually from Bangladesh, but the point stands. 

I find it interesting that Canada probably has more soccer players developing from "Asian" -  in English parlance (ie. Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas rather than further east which is "Oriental") - backgrounds than England does considering England's huge population from those areas and its huge population playing the sport. 

Neil Taylor (technically Welsh, I guess), Yan Dhanda and Hamza Choudhury are listed as the first British Asians to play for first teams and their debutes came from the 2010s and later.  Choudhury was the first in the Europa League in 2020. 

Probably because kids athletes from those communities are funnelled into cricket.  But if you want to talk about the dominant culture of a country as a whole not pushing kids to take up a certain sport, that has be a strong example.  Especially since the community has been there for so many year. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Basketball is big in China as well, as far as I understand...

That's what the sports media in North America prefers to emphasize rather than mentioning the soccer angle.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I find it interesting that Canada probably has more soccer players developing from "Asian" -  in English parlance (ie. Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas rather than further east which is "Oriental") - backgrounds than England does considering England's huge population from those areas and its huge population playing the sport. 

Neil Taylor (technically Welsh, I guess), Yan Dhanda and Hamza Choudhury are listed as the first British Asians to play for first teams and their debutes came from the 2010s and later.  Choudhury was the first in the Europa League in 2020. 

Probably because kids athletes from those communities are funnelled into cricket.  But if you want to talk about the dominant culture of a country as a whole not pushing kids to take up a certain sport, that has be a strong example.  Especially since the community has been there for so many year. 

I think that's exactly it. England are obviously more of a Cricket country than we are, so that makes a lot of sense. The pipeline into Cricket is already established, but not so for Canada, so soccer is the "default" sport, as it is for just about everyone as a child. 

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That's what the sports media in North America prefers to emphasize rather than mentioning the soccer angle.

Fair enough.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

...Neil Taylor (technically Welsh, I guess), Yan Dhanda and Hamza Choudhury are listed as the first British Asians to play for first teams and their debutes came from the 2010s and later.  Choudhury was the first in the Europa League in 2020...

Guess because Jazz Juttla played in Scotland certain segments of the British media will automatically just ignore his admittedly brief career:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_Juttla

Didn't quite make the grade with Rangers but Morton would have been full-time professional when he played for them. There is something a bit strange about how few players from that background have made it in a UK context. I think the idea it's all because of cricket is a bit of a stretch unfortunately.

There was also a player from an Anglo-Indian background who played for Liverpool and Arsenal in the early 90s but that angle wasn't talked up at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_(footballer)

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55536025

Edited May 20, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Free kick]

So we talked Broadcasting/media.  We talked Governments.   We talked day to day discourse.  Here is another example that might fall under the day to day discourse that suggests we are not a soccer nation.  
 

As I type this I am sitting at the Cage Aux Sports at the same time that Montreal is playing RSL.  The place is well frequented as always.  On the big massive Giant screen:  Car vs NYR.  In the little side screens, whereby you have to do contortions to watch, the live action of Mtl vs RSL.  Remember,  this is in Montréal.  
 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Free kick

[EJsens1]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

So we talked Broadcasting/media.  We talked Governments.   We talked day to day discourse.  Here is another example that might fall under the day to day discourse that suggests we are not a soccer nation.  
 

As I type this I am sitting at the Cage Aux Sports at the same time that Montreal is playing RSL.  The place is well frequented as always.  On the big massive Giant screen:  Car vs NYR.  In the little side screens, whereby you have to do contortions to watch, the live action of Mtl vs RSL.  Remember,  this is in Montréal.  
 

Hockey is still king and it is a playoff game. I agree that it is frustrating and you think to yourself, why don’t more people get engaged with the game? As much as the last year helped moved the cause for the MNT, most people are fickle and won’t pay attention until November. To me the true test will be in 2027 and beyond after we’ve hosted a World Cup.

[Free kick]

4 hours ago, EJsens1 said:

Hockey is still king and it is a playoff game. I agree that it is frustrating and you think to yourself, why don’t more people get engaged with the game? As much as the last year helped moved the cause for the MNT, most people are fickle and won’t pay attention until November. To me the true test will be in 2027 and beyond after we’ve hosted a World Cup.

Actually, i am not frustrated at all.  I dont really care either way.  This was more of an observation that I was share.   
 

Is hockey really king in canada when it comes to Carolina versus NYR.   I dont believe thats true, although we may be lead to believe that.    I think that reality is that people care about the NHL team in their own market.   The place is packed, as it always is, but nobody was watching NYR-Carolina. Most ppl were there to eat.  A few were watching Montreal versus RSL

Edited May 23, 2022 by Free kick

[Ally McCoist]

Hockey is a slowly dying sport in Canada simply because of the high barrier to entry. I watched a lot of hockey growing up but I've never once played hockey on ice because we could never afford it. Soccer was our go-to.  

And with Canada becoming even more unaffordable, hockey will further go down the priority list of sports parents will get their kids into.

[EJsens1]

46 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Actually, i am not frustrated at all.  I dont really care either way.  This was more of an observation.   
 

Is hockey really king in canada when it comes to Carolina versus NYR.   I dont believe thats true, although we may be lead to believe that.    I think that reality is that people care about the NHL team in their own market.   The place packed, as it always is, but nobody was watching NYR-Carolina. Most ppl were there to eat.  A few were watching Montreal versus RSL

 

11 minutes ago, Ally McCoist said:

Hockey is a slowly dying sport in Canada simply because of the high barrier to entry. I watched a lot of hockey growing up but I've never once played hockey on ice because we could never afford it. Soccer was our go-to.  

And with Canada becoming even more unaffordable, hockey will further go down the priority list of sports parents will get their kids into.

I agree with what you guys are saying, but I think the difference here is when you take a random CF Montreal game and then put it against say the Rangers-Hurricanes game like today, people in this country are still tuned in to what the hockey game is. I had no idea that soccer game was happening. I sure did know the hockey was on. In Ottawa, power is out everywhere due to that storm and I went out to a bar to watch anything as I was so bored with my internet down (not meant to disparage all the people without power still). It was hockey and PGA on every tv. Part of the problem for me, and this is just my take on it, is that we take some of the games the mens national team has played during qualifying and then compare those numbers to your average hockey night in Canada game as some sort of barometer. Numbers might look better by a substantial amount for the mens team relative to the past but they’re still second fiddle to hockey when it really matters I believe. I wish it was different and these donkeys who hate soccer would get their heads of out their asses, but sadly it’s still the way it is.

.

 

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, EJsens1 said:

 

I agree with what you guys are saying, but I think the difference here is when you take a random CF Montreal game and then put it against say the Rangers-Hurricanes game like today, people in this country are still tuned in to what the hockey game is. I had no idea that soccer game was happening. I sure did know the hockey was on. In Ottawa, power is out everywhere due to that storm and I went out to a bar to watch anything as I was so bored with my internet down (not meant to disparage all the people without power still). It was hockey and PGA on every tv. Part of the problem for me, and this is just my take on it, is that we take some of the games the mens national team has played during qualifying and then compare those numbers to your average hockey night in Canada game as some sort of barometer. Numbers might look better by a substantial amount for the mens team relative to the past but they’re still second fiddle to hockey when it really matters I believe. I wish it was different and these donkeys who hate soccer would get their heads of out their asses, but sadly it’s still the way it is.

.

 

Regarding the bolded part.   I would still say that in any city in Canada there are far far more people who care about their local team than they care about hockey in general.   I'll venture to say that 90-98% are Leaf fans, Habs fans, Sens, Jets, Flames, Oiler and Canucks fans and a very tiny or insignificant minority make it appointment viewing for your general run of mill NHL game that doesn't involve their local team. Its very very few, but we are lead to believe that that is not the case. Why?   I am going to go on limb here, so here it goes,  media companies pay an enormous fees for the rights to air these games and they know that their bread and butter is really Canucks, habs, leafs etc etc and not Carolina, Anaheim, NYR or even Tampa bay.   So, if you are in these media companies' marketing department, you gotta find a way to get as many people as possible to think its important to watch Car-NYR because there is possibility that many or all of these Canadian clubs could be eliminated or even miss the playoffs.   One way to do that is to plant the seed in people's minds that hockey is important to them because they are Canadian and that other Canadians care.  But is it really true? We will never really know but  can tell you, there must have been 200 people in there today and nobody was watching Car-NYR.  

Remember, as I was recounting this anecdote earlier,  I am in Montreal today.   So there may have been what 15-20K people there at SS to watch Montreal versus RSL.  Are there 15-20K people in Montreal who care about the outcome of Carolina versus NYR?  I don't think so.   Its just that people who run and manage these kind of establishments (who are working there for skills other than sports knowledge), make immediate assumption based on the seed that's been planted in their minds.  There maybe other factors too, such as:  this establishment is major sponsor of hockey content in media and has an sizable investment in the habs.  So there are synergies there between the retailer (like the Cage)  and the game of hockey in Montreal.   But all this has NOTHING to do with what masses actually really think or prefer.  If we were a true soccer nation, these synergies would exits with soccer clubs and the MNT in Canada as well.  some of these synergies exist with Baseball (the blue jays) in Canada.   This is one reason why i am a much bigger believer in MLS with its ownership groups like MLSE, Kerfoot and Saputo than I am with the ownership groups that make up the CPL.   you have a far more easier time creating and making these synergies profitable if you are MLSE than if if you are the owner of a CPL club.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Free kick

[red card]

20 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Regarding the bolded part.   I would still say that in any city in Canada there are far far more people who care about their local team than they care about hockey in general.   I'll venture to say that 90-98% are Leaf fans, Habs fans, Sens, Jets, Flames, Oiler and Canucks fans and a very tiny or insignificant minority make it appointment viewing for your general run of mill NHL game that doesn't involve their local team. Its very very few, but we are lead to believe that that is not the case. Why?   I am going to go on limb here, so here it goes,  media companies pay an enormous fees for the rights to air these games and they know that their bread and butter is really Canucks, habs, leafs etc etc and not Carolina, Anaheim, NYR or even Tampa bay.   So, if you are in these media companie's marketing department, you gotta makes you find a way to get as many people as possible to think its important to watch Car-NYR because there is possibility that many or all of these Canadian clubs could be eliminated or even miss the playoffs.   One way to do that is to plant the seed in people's minds that hockey is important to them because they are Canadian.  But is it really true? We will never really know but  can tell you, there must have been 200 people in there today and nobody was watching Car-NYR.  

Remember, as I was recounting this anecdote earlier,  I am in Montreal today.   So there may have been what 15-20K people there at SS to watch Montreal versus RSL.  Are there 15-20K people in Montreal who care about the outcome of Carolina versus NYR?  I dont think so.   Its just that people who run and manage these kind of establishments (who are working there for skills other than sports knowledge), make immediate assumption based on the seed thats been planted in their minds.  There maybe other factors too, such as:  this establishment is major sponsor of hockey content in media and has an sizable investment in the habs.  So there are synergies there between the retailer (like the Cage)  and the game of hockey in Montreal.   But all this has NOTHING to do with what masses actually really think or prefer.  If we were a true soccer nation, these synergies would exits with soccer clubs and the MNT in Canada as well.  some of these synergies exist with Baseball (the blue jays) in Canada.   This is one reason why i am a much bigger believer in MLS with its ownership groups like MLSE, Kerfoot and Saputo than I am with the ownership groups that make up the CPL.   you have a far more easier time creating and making these synergies profitable if you are MLSE than if if you are the owner of a CPL club.

The tv station knew. Though, it is more team chez nous > American hockey teams.

TVA put the CFM match on their main TVA Sports. The 2 afternoon hockey games were on TVA Sports 2.

So, it's more that the sports bar operators doing what has worked in the past till it stops working. 

 

[red card]

SUM just extended their agreement with the Mexican Fed for another 6 years. Or as some Mexican-Americans say, it's a deal to sell our culture back to us.

From Canada's view, it shows we aren't a soccer nation commercially and the national team isn't a cultural touchstone yet.

The SUM agreement means Mexico will continue to play 5 friendlies/yr in the US. The SUM deal consisting of match day revenue, US tv rights and sponsorship account for 1/3 of the Mexican Fed's revenue.

The number of Mexicans in the US is basically equivalent to Canada's total population. But the Mexican team has averaged over 50k per friendly match in the US since 2003. They don't make excuses for not attending. Ticket prices are higher than Canada ever charged during WCQ or for Iran. 50k+ includes when Mexico plays B or C versions of their team. For example, last year, over 70k attended in Atlanta for a Mexico B or C team vs Honduras post Nations League friendly.

Even if Canada had 5 cities with over 50k stadiums, we would have a hard time filling it at $100+ tickets unless there is a large demand from visiting team supporters.

The Mexican kit outsells the US version in the US. USSoccer recently signed a new 10 year deal with Nike. It is the largest ever commercial agreement for USSoccer. Dollar figure wasn't disclosed but note that the 10 year Nike deal that ended in 2006 has been reported to be worth US$120 million. 

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/mls-marketing-arm-extends-deal-110046348.html

 

[chalms04]

Shut ‘er down boys, we’ve made it. 
 

 

 

[gigi riva]

We are far from a Soccer nation. but I do see attitudes changing. For example in my hometown Guelph I have seen more Soccer pitches than Baseball diamonds being made, compared to when I was younger , would love to see 5 a side cages being made replacing some of the tennis courts that are not being used . On Saturday I saw a bunch of Indian guys playing Cricket on a Baseball diamond and I thought it was so cool, the best part of that was it seemed to annoy some of these fat ass white trash F - Trudeau crowd that were hanging around . 

   Its time we start creating our own Soccer / Footy culture here in this country , nothing wrong with stealing ideas from different countries , but we should start supporting your local team , In my case Guelph United , 

[Metro]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:05 PM, red card said:

The tv station knew. Though, it is more team chez nous > American hockey teams.

TVA put the CFM match on their main TVA Sports. The 2 afternoon hockey games were on TVA Sports 2.

So, it's more that the sports bar operators doing what has worked in the past till it stops working. 

 

When thar Apple/MLS streaming deal came out last week, it came out that TVA Sports paid CFM $5 million/year for the TV rights, which was among the most lucrative local deals in the league. So to their credit, TVA has been invested in the team.

[Joe MacCarthy]

17 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

the best part of that was it seemed to annoy some of these fat ass white trash F - Trudeau crowd that were hanging around .

Really Hillary?  Deplorables?  Hate speech is ok as long as only one side is allowed to do it.

[Vasi]

Well things are changing . Every day on my way to work i hear soccer news and scores on multiple radio stations. A few days ago they mentioned the u20 scores. So sport has definitely broken in to the mainstream. 

[gigi riva]

3 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Really Hillary?  Deplorables?  Hate speech is ok as long as only one side is allowed to do it.

Hillary ? really  your calling what I said hate speech, I am telling you what I witnessed how is that hate speech . Let me guess You support those no good for nothing  A- holes , the same people who contribute nothing to society, the same people who have made some of days miserable. The same people who will always complain no matter who is in charge . So explain to me Einstien how is what I said Hate speech , especially as I walking around that day and hearing these snickering  amomgst each other making fun of these guys playing cricket . Please Joe tell us all how its hate soeech what I witnessed .l

[RS]

[gigi riva]

3 hours ago, Vasi said:

Well things are changing . Every day on my way to work i hear soccer news and scores on multiple radio stations. A few days ago they mentioned the u20 scores. So sport has definitely broken in to the mainstream. 

Vasi it is slowly changing  Just out of curiosty what is your opinion on the recent MLS / Apple TV deal for 2023 

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 minute ago, gigi riva said:

Hillary ? really  your calling what I said hate speech, I am telling you what I witnessed how is that hate speech . Let me guess You support those no good for nothing  A- holes , the same people who contribute nothing to society, the same people who have made some of days miserable. The same people who will always complain no matter who is in charge . So explain to me Einstien how is what I said Hate speech , especially as I walking around that day and hearing these snickering  amomgst each other making fun of these guys playing cricket . Please Joe tell us all how its hate soeech what I witnessed .l

Ah, Rudi, always with the pithy commentary   Giga, there's something about the words "white trash" that somehow resonate.  Perhaps you could insert another intersectional word in there instead of white and see how it plays.

[Vasi]

16 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

Vasi it is slowly changing  Just out of curiosty what is your opinion on the recent MLS / Apple TV deal for 2023 

It is slowly changing. I agree, but there is definitely more coverage in places where there was no coverage a year ago. 

 

As for the MLS deal. Im happy they got money. But I'm not happy about them putting another pay wall. The good thing is that lots of ppl have apple tv as opposed to fubo or one soccer or what ever.

For me it does not matter as I watch most of my football on streams. So ill be ok. 

But i do understand ppls frustrations. 

[Joe MacCarthy]

6 minutes ago, Vasi said:

As for the MLS deal. Im happy they got money. But I'm not happy about them putting another pay wall. The good thing is that lots of ppl have apple tv as opposed to fubo or one soccer or what ever.

This is a tough one and I'm not sure if I can explain it properly as there are so many variables and forces at play here. 

Not being on network (OTA) TV is tough.  I know there will be some out there who will say that nobody watches network TV anymore, and the younger generation streams everything, but they are not mindful of what changes ATSC 3.0 will bring to bear in the coming years, something which I don't know either, yet.

Around 75% of U.S. TV households are expected to be within range of receiving ATSC 3.0 by the end of this year.  With inflation the way it is now people are more mindful of where they are spending their dollars.  OTA TV has been making a comeback even before the evolution of ATSC 3.0 and still getting stronger with SVOD services possibly reaching their Zenith

I am always mindful of the time when the NHL signed with SportsChannel America over ESPN way back in the early days of ESPN.  It was more money but less exposure, a mistake from which they've never really recovered in the US.  I would say something similar about the CFL and TSN.  They received decent money from TSN (relative to their position in the marketplace) but lessened exposure from not being on network OTA TV.  And if anyone doubts the power that network TV still has, look at the numbers any old piece of American bad programming can get on CTV

Is this a good deal for soccer fans, likely, but it is preaching to the choir, will it be the best to grow the game, I have some reservations