CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[phil03]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

This will be the acid test for sharing a market with MLS.

If Vancouver succeeds then it can be argued that York is just doing something wrong.  If Vancouver fails then it looks like sharing with MLS is just a bad idea.

Fair enough. Forge and Pacific are special cases IMO, as Victoria and Hamilton have enough of a different local identity (and distinct enough geographically too) to make it work. York and Vancouver though? Yeah, the MLS clubs will come more into play.

Edited August 15, 2022 by phil03

[SpursFlu]

32 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Fair enough. Forge and Pacific are special cases IMO, as Victoria and Hamilton have enough of a different local identity (and distinct enough geographically too) to make it work. York and Vancouver though? Yeah, the MLS clubs will come more into play.

The Fraser Valley has enough geographical space but im concerned that they're not embracing that and solidifying that with their identity. I know from a few years ago Whitecaps season ticket holders numbers drop off considerably once you cross the Fraser River

[Kent]

15 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The Fraser Valley has enough geographical space but im concerned that they're not embracing that and solidifying that with their identity. I know from a few years ago Whitecaps season ticket holders numbers drop off considerably once you cross the Fraser River

It seems like Vancouver and York are doing opposite mistakes.

York gave itself a name to differentiate it from Toronto (although they dialed that back a bit with the rebrand from York 9 to York United), but then put the team in Toronto.

Vancouver seems to be branding itself as a Vancouver team (it seems, we still don't know the official name I guess) but the location is outside of Vancouver.

I think York United was always going to be a tough sell and had to do things very right to get itself a decent sized fanbase. It seemed like at first they knew it wasn't a good idea to be in Toronto, hence they made a point of branding it outside of Toronto and said that York Lions stadium would be temporary, and that they were going to build their own stadium in York Region. But then, as they seemed to predict, the team didn't do well in Toronto, and somehow that made them think it wasn't a good idea to move into their originally planned/marketed area. I have 0 doubt that if they built the stadium they originally planned on, they would draw more fans. Whether it would be enough or not I don't know.

On the plus side for York United, they have sold a decent number of players so far, so that should lessen the sting of the poor ticket sales.

[Kent]

Is anyone else a bit worried about Forge's attendance? After York and Edmonton, Forge is the next most concerning. This is a team that has been the best in the league, has won championships, have had relatively high profile matches in the Canadian Championship and CONCACAF League to help promote it, but attendance is just around 3500. What happens if/when they hit a rough patch for a couple years? Let's say Bobby Smyrniotis gets a better gig for next year and Forge becomes a middling or bad team. Do they then drop down below the 3000 fans per game mark?

I guess the reason why I am a bit worried about that is that I thought the Canadian Championship (with games against established MLS teams) and CONCACAF competitions would be a differentiator for CPL vs the 80's version of the CSL. I thought that could be a gateway to drawing more fans. So far it doesn't seem to be having that effect. Maybe the fans in Pacific will latch on more with the exposure CONCACAF League can give.

[SpursFlu]

6 minutes ago, Kent said:

It seems like Vancouver and York are doing opposite mistakes.

York gave itself a name to differentiate it from Toronto (although they dialed that back a bit with the rebrand from York 9 to York United), but then put the team in Toronto.

Vancouver seems to be branding itself as a Vancouver team (it seems, we still don't know the official name I guess) but the location is outside of Vancouver.

I think York United was always going to be a tough sell and had to do things very right to get itself a decent sized fanbase. It seemed like at first they knew it wasn't a good idea to be in Toronto, hence they made a point of branding it outside of Toronto and said that York Lions stadium would be temporary, and that they were going to build their own stadium in York Region. But then, as they seemed to predict, the team didn't do well in Toronto, and somehow that made them think it wasn't a good idea to move into their originally planned/marketed area. I have 0 doubt that if they built the stadium they originally planned on, they would draw more fans. Whether it would be enough or not I don't know.

On the plus side for York United, they have sold a decent number of players so far, so that should lessen the sting of the poor ticket sales.

Yah the York situation feels more like if CPL put a team at Swangard. I'm no gta expert but Langley is more like Oakville 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Is anyone else a bit worried about Forge's attendance? After York and Edmonton, Forge is the next most concerning. This is a team that has been the best in the league, has won championships, have had relatively high profile matches in the Canadian Championship and CONCACAF League to help promote it, but attendance is just around 3500. What happens if/when they hit a rough patch for a couple years? Let's say Bobby Smyrniotis gets a better gig for next year and Forge becomes a middling or bad team. Do they then drop down below the 3000 fans per game mark?

I guess the reason why I am a bit worried about that is that I thought the Canadian Championship (with games against established MLS teams) and CONCACAF competitions would be a differentiator for CPL vs the 80's version of the CSL. I thought that could be a gateway to drawing more fans. So far it doesn't seem to be having that effect. Maybe the fans in Pacific will latch on more with the exposure CONCACAF League can give.

My answer is not yet.  I expected teams to drop compared to year one (the super covid years two and three don't really count for me).  The question is whether this represents the bottom.  If next year they start to improve, then good.  If they continue to drop then I'm worried.

I think what we're seeing in Hamilton and across the league is that CPL attendances are driven largely by the size of the core fan group.  It is really just the type of people who post on boards like these who are aware of the league and go to games.  You can pull in some extra fans for a really big game (say against an MLS team or a CONCACAF opponent) but even supposedly big rivalries don't move the attendance needle with a huge influx of casuals.  

This goes back to the chicken and egg discussion of exposure for the league.  How many people in town even know there is a team?  How many would consider going to a game?  How many of them actually get off the couch and go?  How many come back?  All of that.

For the league to survive long term, the owners are going to have to put in the sustained effort to make that core group large enough for a viable team.  Just paying salaries and field rental is, unfortunately, not enough.

[Aird25]

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I think what we're seeing in Hamilton and across the league is that CPL attendances are driven largely by the size of the core fan group.  It is really just the type of people who post on boards like these who are aware of the league and go to games.

In my experience, this is not at all the case in Victoria. I often sit with many casual fans that know very little about the team or league and are just there for an event.

[Bison44]

6 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

In my experience, this is not at all the case in Victoria. I often sit with many casual fans that know very little about the team or league and are just there for an event.

That wasnt my experience in WPG either.  I sat next to Bomber fans who knew nothing and seemed to enjoy themselves anyway.  

[Haligonian#1]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

That wasnt my experience in WPG either.  I sat next to Bomber fans who knew nothing and seemed to enjoy themselves anyway.  

Same thing for Halifax. At my workplace (government office), I would say that 1/4 of the staff have been to at least one match since CPL began playing. My office has about 200 staff. 

[phil03]

I do feel it is worth also considering local factors here. Speaking of Ottawa's situation (since its my team and I live there) I'd say that, on top of the issue with public transit I mentioned in this thread in the past, there is at least two groups that could be brought in but don't for their own reasons:

I. French-speaking fans in the National Capital Region who are unhappy with the CPL not doing enough to make their day to day coverage available in French. To Ottawa and OneSoccer's credits they have both down much to reach out to French-speaking fans but it is something of a sensitive matter so the league not doing the same has kept at least some fans away. 

Honestly, I do have to admit I kinda don't understand the CPL on this one. They have 22% of their prospective fanbase coming from a community for which it matters significantly and IMO wanting to be the Canadian league goes with certain obligations in that regard and all that they would have to do is hire like one translator...

II. There is still a descent chunk of the fanbase of the Furies who have yet to transfer to Atletico Ottawa. It is unfortunate, especially since I'd argue that the relationship between them and the CPL was actually way better then a lot of people remember. The Furies saying they planned to join at some point but wanted the league to stick around for sometimes to show viability before and the CPL (as well as the CSA) were understanding of both that and some of the stuff that would have come with the Furies making the transition from one league to another, only to see CONCACAF try to force the matter to happen earlier, which leaded to the mess we know. 

What has been done can't be undone though, and there is a sizable number of Ottawa Soccer fans who associate the CPL with the demise of their Furies. While some of them might never reconcile with Atletico I do think there is stuff that can be done to bring at least a good chunk of these disaffected fans in the tent, so to speak. Keeping a lot of familiar faces earlier by grabbing old Furies players was a great idea but I'd go further and perhaps have nights to honor some of their players and coach if they are game, and perhaps even games where they play with old Furies uniforms if they can have the rights to do so. Basically, anything they can do to depict themselves as a continuation of the Furies would help. Winning would be great for that too, obviously, as not making the playoffs for a few years while the Furies did was obviously not helpful and getting a trophy as well as games in continental tournaments, which I don't think the Furies ever got, would do wonders to help people fully turn the page.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

My answer is not yet.  I expected teams to drop compared to year one (the super covid years two and three don't really count for me).  The question is whether this represents the bottom.  If next year they start to improve, then good.  If they continue to drop then I'm worried.

This is my general stance with the league as a whole, and why I like Shermanator's numbers where he is comparing with last year's attendence. 2019 was always going to be a high bar, and 2021 was always going to be a low bar. But as long as the league grows from there, we should be good.

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I know from a few years ago Whitecaps season ticket holders numbers drop off considerably once you cross the Fraser River

Sure, but is that because of the distance or because there's less interest in soccer? We know the BC Lions definitely draw a significant base from across the Fraser River.

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, Kent said:

Is anyone else a bit worried about Forge's attendance? After York and Edmonton, Forge is the next most concerning. This is a team that has been the best in the league, has won championships, have had relatively high profile matches in the Canadian Championship and CONCACAF League to help promote it, but attendance is just around 3500. What happens if/when they hit a rough patch for a couple years? Let's say Bobby Smyrniotis gets a better gig for next year and Forge becomes a middling or bad team. Do they then drop down below the 3000 fans per game mark?

I guess the reason why I am a bit worried about that is that I thought the Canadian Championship (with games against established MLS teams) and CONCACAF competitions would be a differentiator for CPL vs the 80's version of the CSL. I thought that could be a gateway to drawing more fans. So far it doesn't seem to be having that effect. Maybe the fans in Pacific will latch on more with the exposure CONCACAF League can give.

Follow me on this, but: sometimes immediate success gets taken for granted. The Forge fans haven't know anything but winning, and simply expect it to continue. Compare that to Pacific, where the winning is a little bit more new. That can drive up some attendance and interest in the team. So you certainly don't want Forge to drop in attendance very much, but a few years of *not* winning might drive attendance higher once they do again.

[grasshopper1917]

6 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

Same thing for Halifax. At my workplace (government office), I would say that 1/4 of the staff have been to at least one match since CPL began playing. My office has about 200 staff. 

That's interesting - I work in a retail store and not a single one of my co-workers have ever been to a game. Could it say something about the fans? Wanderers more of a 'White collar' fan base maybe? Also my store is not located right downtown so maybe geography has something to do with it? Hard to say.

[Haligonian#1]

1 hour ago, grasshopper1917 said:

That's interesting - I work in a retail store and not a single one of my co-workers have ever been to a game. Could it say something about the fans? Wanderers more of a 'White collar' fan base maybe? Also my store is not located right downtown so maybe geography has something to do with it? Hard to say.

The fan base does appear to be mostly a white collar crowd.

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 hours ago, Kent said:

It seems like Vancouver and York are doing opposite mistakes.

York gave itself a name to differentiate it from Toronto (although they dialed that back a bit with the rebrand from York 9 to York United), but then put the team in Toronto.

Vancouver seems to be branding itself as a Vancouver team (it seems, we still don't know the official name I guess) but the location is outside of Vancouver.

It's not a  mistake. At least until it is. 

A  big soccer city should be able to handle two teams. 

Anyways, the Whitecaps are vulnerable enough for someone with a bit of sense to have a go at them.

I think it might be fun. 

I realize we're probably talking to a lot of TFC fans who won't give York or the CPL the time of day, don't know why we should bother really. Talk to them. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kingston]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I realize we're probably talking to a lot of TFC fans who won't give York or the CPL the time of day, don't know why we should bother really. Talk to them. 

I think more people are the other way.  I've been a TFC fan since day one and I'm also a CPL fan.  I have no problem wishing success to both.   I've seen it at VC games in Ottawa between TFC and the Fury where, honestly, most people in the stadium were probably fans of both teams.

[Tigers]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:56 PM, Kent said:

Oh, and the question about a hypothetical final in Ottawa got me curious. Here are the attendances of CPL finals so far.

2019 - October 26 - Hamilton - 10,486
2019 - November 2 - Calgary - 5,831

2020 - September 19 - Charlottetown - NA

2021 - December 5 - Hamilton - 7,488

I put the dates because I thought that could partially account for the drop for Hamilton (as well as the "not the first year" factor). It's an easier sell to get fans to games in October than in December.

 

On 8/12/2022 at 11:59 PM, jonovision said:

COVID played a factor in this number as well. Hamilton failed to sell out a home Grey Cup in the same month for some of the same reasons.

The Grey Cup itself probably ate up a bunch of disposable income and event attendance that might otherwise have gone to a Forge final.

[shermanator]

 

Love seeing the growth in Cavalry's attendance compared to both 2021 and 2019. They've done a lot of work marketing the club and working with local youth teams and it's paying off.

[RS]

13 minutes ago, shermanator said:

 

Love seeing the growth in Cavalry's attendance compared to both 2021 and 2019. They've done a lot of work marketing the club and working with local youth teams and it's paying off.

Cavalry now averaging one (1) more fan per game than Forge!

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Pacific vs Herediano:

 

[Kingston]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Pacific vs Herediano:

 

About one and a half times their average so a nice crowd for them for a big game.

[narduch]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

About one and a half times their average so a nice crowd for them for a big game.

Also a couple of hundred higher than the Waterhouse match (4,487)

[Aird25]

On 8/17/2022 at 5:39 AM, narduch said:

Also a couple of hundred higher than the Waterhouse match (4,487)

It felt like more than that to be honest. At least in my section. These concacaf matches, and the game against Vancouver, have been really fun and show what games could be like week in week out if we're lucky

Edited August 18, 2022 by Aird25

[Ftduck]

Question for anyone who attended last nights Concacaf game. Was there any away support for Costa Rica? Couldn't tell from the broadcast.