CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Kingston]

12 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I am not hitting the panic button on Ottawa yet, but if they can't grow their attendance in the next 5-6 years to a more sustainable level then I think we should all be concerned. I am very concerned about Edmonton and Winnipeg. York might survive a few more years...but that is about it.

Any team that's going to survive had better have reached a sustainable attendance level by five years from now.  Which means that everyone except Halifax needs significant improvement.

[Kingston]

12 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I have a question because I really like Ottawa's stadium. It looks great and I like the atmosphere it has generated. If Atletico made it to the CPL finals and hosted.. what do people think the attendance would be?

Probably somewhere between 6000 and 8000.  I know people are going to want to say "It'll be awesome!  They'll sell out the stadium!  Huge crowds!" but that's not likely. 

History from sports like this suggests that teams have trouble capitalizing on playoff success because they usually only have a week to sell tickets from the time they learn for certain that they are in the game.  People who regularly attend or post on boards like this one will buy tickets right away, and that gets you a crowd that matches a good regular season game.  It's hard to build buzz amongst casuals in a week, so not a lot of them go from thinking about purchasing a ticket to actually putting their money down.  They wait and, especially if the weather on October 29 looks poor, stay home.

So 6000 and maybe up to 8000 if the team builds some buzz through the summer and the weather looks good on game day.

[shermanator]

From attendances reported on the CPL website (excluding the 1187 for July 23 Forge / Valour as that was the attendance for York / Ottawa), average attendance is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - 3976
• Cavalry - 3415
• Edmonton - 970
• Forge - 3473
• HFX Wanderers - 5999
• Pacific - 3113
• Valour - 2926
• York United - 1176

When compared to 2021, attendance change is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa +10%
• Cavalry +34%
• Edmonton +1%
• Forge +3%
• HFX Wanderers +15%
• Pacific +18%
• Valour +11%
• York United +5%

When compared to 2019, attendance change is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - N/A
• Cavalry +4%
• Edmonton -67%
• Forge -47%
• HFX Wanderers -1%
• Pacific 0%
• Valour -45%
• York United -56%

[Kingston]

39 minutes ago, shermanator said:

From attendances reported on the CPL website (excluding the 1187 for July 23 Forge / Valour as that was the attendance for York / Ottawa), average attendance is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - 3976
• Cavalry - 3415
• Edmonton - 970
• Forge - 3473
• HFX Wanderers - 5999
• Pacific - 3113
• Valour - 2926
• York United - 1176

When compared to 2019, attendance change is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - N/A
• Cavalry +4%
• Edmonton -67%
• Forge -47%
• HFX Wanderers -1%
• Pacific 0%
• Valour -45%
• York United -56%

While it is good that we are up from the covid-messy 2021 season, to me the comparison that matters is to 2019.  2019 set the baseline.  It is expected that most teams will see a bit of a dip from season one as the new car smell wears off and they find their footing with their fan bases.  Then what we want to see is a rebound and, hopefully, growth beyond the 2019 baseline.

Ottawa is really just setting its baseline this year.

Halifax, as we've discussed, is great.  Pacific and Calgary seem to have levelled off and will hopefully start to trend upward in a meaningful way.

York and Edmonton look like aircraft that didn't pull up in time and are now carving furrows in some farmer's field.

Forge and Valour are still question marks.

Bigger picture, we need more teams to join Halifax in the 5000+ club regardless of the exact trajectory they take to get there.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

From attendances reported on the CPL website (excluding the 1187 for July 23 Forge / Valour as that was the attendance for York / Ottawa), average attendance is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - 3976
• Cavalry - 3415
• Edmonton - 970
• Forge - 3473
• HFX Wanderers - 5999
• Pacific - 3113
• Valour - 2926
• York United - 1176

When compared to 2021, attendance change is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa +10%
• Cavalry +34%
• Edmonton +1%
• Forge +3%
• HFX Wanderers +15%
• Pacific +18%
• Valour +11%
• York United +5%

When compared to 2019, attendance change is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa - N/A
• Cavalry +4%
• Edmonton -67%
• Forge -47%
• HFX Wanderers -1%
• Pacific 0%
• Valour -45%
• York United -56%

Imagine if major networks owned by telecom giants weren't petty and showed the scores, highlights and talked about CPL (at the very least when they do well in CONCACAF).

[Ansem]

38 minutes ago, Kingston said:

While it is good that we are up from the covid-messy 2021 season, to me the comparison that matters is to 2019.  2019 set the baseline.  It is expected that most teams will see a bit of a dip from season one as the new car smell wears off and they find their footing with their fan bases.  Then what we want to see is a rebound and, hopefully, growth beyond the 2019 baseline.

Ottawa is really just setting its baseline this year.

Halifax, as we've discussed, is great.  Pacific and Calgary seem to have levelled off and will hopefully start to trend upward in a meaningful way.

York and Edmonton look like aircraft that didn't pull up in time and are now carving furrows in some farmer's field.

Forge and Valour are still question marks.

Bigger picture, we need more teams to join Halifax in the 5000+ club regardless of the exact trajectory they take to get there.

I don't know what you expect when they barely get any mainstream attention - What's hurting the league the most is not their product being unattractive or level of play being too low like some like to speculate - most casual have no clue it even exists.

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Probably somewhere between 6000 and 8000.  I know people are going to want to say "It'll be awesome!  They'll sell out the stadium!  Huge crowds!" but that's not likely. 

History from sports like this suggests that teams have trouble capitalizing on playoff success because they usually only have a week to sell tickets from the time they learn for certain that they are in the game.  People who regularly attend or post on boards like this one will buy tickets right away, and that gets you a crowd that matches a good regular season game.  It's hard to build buzz amongst casuals in a week, so not a lot of them go from thinking about purchasing a ticket to actually putting their money down.  They wait and, especially if the weather on October 29 looks poor, stay home.

So 6000 and maybe up to 8000 if the team builds some buzz through the summer and the weather looks good on game day.

How much is a ticket to a game in Ottawa?

[SpursFlu]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Imagine if major networks owned by telecom giants weren't petty and showed the scores, highlights and talked about CPL (at the very least when they do well in CONCACAF).

This is actually an amazing comment. Think of the junk you see on TSN and Sportsnet. Think of the junk they run on their scroll. Such and such suspended for this, such and such arrested for that, such such accused such and such of such and such. Basically TMZ nail salon crap. Yet they can't even be bothered to put the score of 4 games a week

Edited August 10, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Kingston]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't know what you expect when they barely get any mainstream attention - What's hurting the league the most is not their product being unattractive or level of play being too low like some like to speculate - most casual have no clue it even exists.

You are correct.  The level of play is certainly watchable and enjoyable.  No one is expecting the EPL or even MLS, so that's fine.

Unfortunately, the mainstream media attention tends to go the other way - become popular first and then you get coverage.  The CPL faces the same problem in that regard as, say, the NLL, the NARL, etc.

[Kingston]

5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

How much is a ticket to a game in Ottawa?

$25 to $45 with a discount for kids

https://atleticoottawa.canpl.ca/matchtickets/

[SpursFlu]

8 minutes ago, Kingston said:

$25 to $45 with a discount for kids

https://atleticoottawa.canpl.ca/matchtickets/

So if I bothered to go for free and enjoyed myself. I dont think $25 is much of a barrier to go watch a championship game. I had a chicken sandwich, salad and water yesterday for lunch and it cost me $27. I was thinking of going to Arcade Fire and cheapest ticket was $450! I'm not picking a fight, I'm just pointing out that with comparable price of other entertainment options at the moment I think CPL tickets and MLS for that matter are great value and not really an obstacle for people 

With the positive momentum of the league no matter where the final is this year I think its going to be a great showcase for the league. Weather permitting 

Edited August 10, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Haligonian#1]

12 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

This is actually an amazing comment. Think of the junk you see on TSN and Sportsnet. Think of the junk they run on their scroll. Such and such suspended for this, such and such arrested for that, such such accused such and such of such and such. Basically TMZ nail salon crap. Yet they can't even be bothered to put the score of 4 games a week

I am not sure how often Sportsnet and TSN are up for license renewal at the CRTC. It might be good if CPL supporters were to start an old fashion "letter writing" campaign or submit complaints to the CRTC. Every license renewal depends on them carrying Canadian content. It wouldn't bold well for them if there were a lot of complaints received from soccer fans that they carry stuff about other leagues, but totally ignore a homegrown league. For example (and I don't watch those networks), if they give the scores of the EPL, MLS, and Bundesliga, but totally ignored CPL, then the CRTC could in theory make it a condition of their renewal that they must also give the scores of the CPL. Same for replays, etc.

[Haligonian#1]

Honestly, I am not sure why the league hasn't pursued this matter further with the CRTC.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

...For example (and I don't watch those networks), if they give the scores of the EPL, MLS, and Bundesliga, but totally ignored CPL, then the CRTC could in theory make it a condition of their renewal that they must also give the scores of the CPL. Same for replays, etc.

It's Canada and it's soccer so you are more likely to simply get laughed at and have to listen to comments like, "I didn't know Canada even had a soccer league". TSN and Sportsnet meet Canadian content requirements with wall-to-wall hockey, CFL and curling. Bob & Doug McKenzie are the generation who tend to still be watching and they prefer it that way.

Back in 2018 the thinking appeared to be that there was a new generation of young hip soccer-loving cord-cutters out there that were going to flock to the streaming service so the "legacy media" wasn't going to even matter this time around. Concept wasn't necessarily a bad one but seemed a little too far ahead of the curve to me at the time.

 

[shermanator]

Anyone pointing to Cavalry and stating that Calgary is a poor soccer market because the city has X population and only draws Y is making an argument that shows they know nothing about the city, the people and the sporting market in Calgary.

Let’s take a trip down memory lane to the last pro team in this city, the Calgary Storm / Team Calgary / Calgary Mustangs. Read the articles here https://stormwatch2001.tripod.com/news.htm, they hit every point on why the game has failed in the past, including:

• Poor crowds and poor performance on the pitch.
• Complaints from the club about the lack of atmosphere in the stands.
• Complaints of a lack of marketing.
• Fractured relationships with local youth clubs.
• The club begging the city to upgrade a stadium that was never suitable for professional soccer in the first place.
• An owner who expanded into the pro game without the infrastructure to support it.
• An owner who failed to pay players and then bailed on the team mid-season, forcing the league to take over.

Now compare that to Cavalry and Spruce Meadows. They:

• Draw the best crowds the game has seen in the city in 40 years.
• Have growing supporters groups that receive plaudits for their atmosphere at games.
• Have increased their season ticket base from 1500 to over 2000 in 3 years.
• Market the club all over the city, including on prominent billboards, radio and transit ads.
• Partner with 14 youth clubs in Calgary and the surrounding area.
• Built their own stadium using private money.
• Are the only club in the league to own their stadium, allowing them to receive all gate, concession and parking revenue.
• Receive significant sponsorship money through league and club sponsors.

And all this despite losing the second season to a pandemic and having the third season heavily impacted by the same pandemic, with a stadium that is in a poor location and a population that spends most of their weekends and summers getting the fuck out of Calgary. But they don’t draw an arbitrary attendance number so Spruce Meadows (a group that has expertise in building a world class sporting product out of nothing) is going to pull the plug on them?

People need to realize that to grow the game at this level in this country is going to take decades. The reason why the game has failed time and time again is because we don’t have the patience to build the supporter base over that time frame.

The articles I posted earlier mirror the situation with FC Edmonton and the Fath’s. In my opinion with them and OSEG out of the ownership picture, we are moving away from the owners who half ass the clubs they create, and towards a group of owners who have the patience to stabilize and grow this league in a sustainable way.

Edited August 10, 2022 by shermanator

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

So if I bothered to go for free and enjoyed myself. I dont think $25 is much of a barrier to go watch a championship game. I had a chicken sandwich, salad and water yesterday for lunch and it cost me $27. I was thinking of going to Arcade Fire and cheapest ticket was $450! I'm not picking a fight, I'm just pointing out that with comparable price of other entertainment options at the moment I think CPL tickets and MLS for that matter are great value and not really an obstacle for people 

With the positive momentum of the league no matter where the final is this year I think its going to be a great showcase for the league. Weather permitting 

I'm not aware that anyone is suggesting the CPL's pricing is going to keep people away.  I went to the Ottawa-Forge game a couple of weeks ago.  We sat in the cheap seats and had a great time in a very fun atmosphere.  Certainly the tickets are well priced compared to other entertainment options.  Even for soccer, TFC tickets are $45 to $250 with most in the $75 to $150 range as per a quick visit I paid to their website just now.

My earlier comments about the difficulty in getting casuals to actually purchase a ticket wasn't about cost, it was about commitment.  There's a tendency for casuals to think about going to the championship game this weekend but then decide to visit a friend instead. Or to forget about the game until they see the results the day after it happened.  So if you polled people a week ahead, the number who say they intend to go is 15 000 but the number who actually show up is 7500.

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

Honestly, I am not sure why the league hasn't pursued this matter further with the CRTC.

Because the CRTC requires broadcasters to carry a certain amount of Canadian content.  It doesn't tell them what that has to be.  It could be drama, news, movies, whatever.  Historically, many broadcasters tended to use sports because they were an easy way to get Canadian content - showing a Jays game or a CFL match is much easier than hiring directors, writers, and actors and producing an actual TV show.

If huge numbers of subscribers to TSN wrote in to demand that TSN show the CPL, that might work because TSN is a business that wants to keep its customers happy.  But the CRTC has no role in dictating specific programming.

[ted]

3 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

Honestly, I am not sure why the league hasn't pursued this matter further with the CRTC.

Because trying to litigate coverage is the absolute worst possible way to get your content on these channels.

You can "sell" it as Can-con but if you try to force it you will ensure it never gets shown.

[Obinna]

@shermanator I love how Cavalry has advertised the team on billboards and Calgary Transit buses. I'd like to think it's more than us soccer nerds that have taken notice of that. Maybe it's just me, but that has given the team a public presence. The team actually gets mention on local radio as well, so it truly feels like it's part of the pro sporting landscape here. Dare I say it's the 3rd most visible team after the flames and stamps? I see more cavalry gear around town than roughnecks lacrosse, though maybe I am just seeing what I want to see.

Thoughts? 

Also, question to the rest of you:

What is the state of marketing in your city? The public presence of the team through billboards and such must play a role in the attendance figures, I assume. 

[ted]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@shermanator I love how Cavalry has advertised the team on billboards and Calgary Transit buses.

PFC have had ads on buses in Victoria since 2019, usually on the back where drivers have to stare at the faces while in traffic.

[BearcatSA]

With the expansion Langley/Vancouver franchise on the horizon, I thought that maybe York would be the canary in the coal mine for them to monitor in terms of attendance.  Considering how poor TFC was last season, I was expecting a bigger bump in attendance for York but I am not sure that really happened.

I have heard comments from a few Caps watchers who vow that they won't renew their season tickets and would turn to the new CPL team instead.  I guess we'll see if that happens.

[Obinna]

26 minutes ago, ted said:

PFC have had ads on buses in Victoria since 2019, usually on the back where drivers have to stare at the faces while in traffic.

Nice. Sherm may know better than I, but I don't recall seeing billboards prior to this year. 

I don't spend a great deal of time in Edmonton now a days, the last time I was there was for both qualifiers last fall, but I don't recall seeing any ads for FC Edmonton. I wasn't looking for it though, mind you. The only time I saw anything regarding the team was at Clarke Stadium when I took in the final match of the season against Forge. 

[shermanator]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@shermanator I love how Cavalry has advertised the team on billboards and Calgary Transit buses. I'd like to think it's more than us soccer nerds that have taken notice of that. Maybe it's just me, but that has given the team a public presence. The team actually gets mention on local radio as well, so it truly feels like it's part of the pro sporting landscape here. Dare I say it's the 3rd most visible team after the flames and stamps? I see more cavalry gear around town than roughnecks lacrosse, though maybe I am just seeing what I want to see.

Thoughts? 

Also, question to the rest of you:

What is the state of marketing in your city? The public presence of the team through billboards and such must play a role in the attendance figures, I assume. 

I mostly notice Cavalry hats than anything else. 

Cavalry punch well above their weight in the traditional sports media. Not sure how much that changes with the constant flux at Sportsnet 960 though. Sports radio is dying in this city.  

[SpursFlu]

Isn't the CBC supposed to be some big defender of Canadian culture/content and more about that than a profit motive? 

They should be 100% pushing CPL & CEBL. I don't pay much attention to CBC nowadays or TSN for that matter but CBC seems to be more interested in driving 2 or 3 social issues in to the ground when they could be elevating Canadians and giving them a platform to showcase their talents. 

I know a certain class of people like to turn their nose up at sports but if you look at what drives interest eyeballs online or anywhere you'd have a hard time convincing me that anything has a larger impact on Canadian culture in 2022 than sports

Edited August 10, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

... but if you look at what drives interest eyeballs online or anywhere you'd have a hard time convincing me that anything has a larger impact on Canadian culture in 2022 than sports

So you don't think that the largest impact on Canadian culture in 2022 has been Canadian culture?