CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Is the stadium project still on? One of the article was dated April 2022 that's why I'm asking. TUTUVM.

McNab was still talking about Woodbine on twitter

[narduch]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Their stadium will be part of a massive redevelopment project at Woodbine that will increase its attractiveness as an entertainment destination with a new GO Station. Also key to that the project is that a new neighborhood of around 60k residents will be part of it.

https://storeys.com/woodbine-racetrack-housing-mega-development-60-000-residents/

Website with images
https://lwlp.com/portfolio_page/woodbine-racetrack/

https://woodbinecommunityplan.com/

York United going at the heart of this massive redevelopment area means that they can capture those residents gradually as they move in and build a following/culture/tradition there focused on the immediate area and expand from there to visitors that will be visiting the site. As for marketing - this is just a more efficient way to go at it.

Their attendance will improve from York University significantly - the product is good, the price is right, they'll have a "real" soccer stadium in an area that will become an entertainment destination and a GO station providing an easy access

When I was an MLS/TFC fan before 2016 - I live in Liberty Village and walking to a TFC game (cheaper tickets back then) was something lots of residents did earlier on and that was at a time where both MLS/TFC had little coverage from the media. The location was right with the right demographic on top of it and just going there on weekends was like a habit. Of course there are other factors but those 2 are far from negligible - the convenience of being this close and going for drinks before or after.

That's what being replicated here in my opinion. Up to the club to not mismanage all these advantage going their way soon

 

Isn't this stadium project dead without CSA backing?

[Metro]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Isn't this stadium project dead without CSA backing?

I have not read anything confirming this.  Perhaps there is something but it seems like everyone just assumed that is the case when the Vaughan project was announced.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Isn't this stadium project dead without CSA backing?

Woodbine CEO was still talking about it as of this week

https://agadir-group.com/woodbine-ent-s-ceo-speaks-on-future-plans-casino-reports/

When the private are willing to put money on a sport venue (soccer stadium of all things), you have to take advantage of it!

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Metro said:

I have not read anything confirming this.  Perhaps there is something but it seems like everyone just assumed that is the case when the Vaughan project was announced.

We also had the Woodbine people complaining that the CSA wouldn't even acknowledge them

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Woodbine CEO was still talking about it as of this week

https://agadir-group.com/woodbine-ent-s-ceo-speaks-on-future-plans-casino-reports/

When the private are willing to put money on a sport venue (soccer stadium of all things), you have to take advantage of it!

Well it's good to hear that

Still super vague on details. 

Maybe I will lurk the Urban Toronto forum later today to see of there are more details 

[Ansem]

That was the latest tweet on the matter from McNab

 

The issue with the CSA might be funding as the private is putting money down. Nothing stops Woodbine to build the stadium if they know they'll have tenants using it and raise the entertainment offer.

If the CSA wants to invest in Vaughan for a training facility financially, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have more infrastructure, no?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Ironic that this thread is going off on a tangent like this when one of the particpants on that likes to harp on about people going off topic. Worth noting that all that is mentioned about a soccer stadium in that agadir-group link is what was outlined in March before one of the CMNT qualifiers. Since then:

 

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ironic that this thread is going off on a tangent like this when one of the particpants on that likes to harp on about people going off topic.

The initial question was related to "attendance" - do try to keep up
 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

That sort of argument could be used for any thread tangent. Winding this back to attendance it's difficult to see how a Woodbine location improves upon York Lions stadium in mass transit access terms and it's probably no better in highway access terms. It isn't the stadium that's the problem especially now they have got rid of the track but the perceived level of soccer so there's no easy magic bullet solution where York United's crowd woes are concerned.

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Winding this back to attendance it's difficult to see how a Woodbine location improves upon York Lions stadium in mass transit access terms and it's probably no better in highway access terms.

Highway 427 is right next to it.

With a GO station that goes straight to Union, a branch to Pearson (planned by Metrolinx), connects with Eglinton Crosstown (Midtown Toronto from Kennedy in Scarborough to Mt.Dennis Etobicoke) and the Finch LRT not too far with plans to go to Woodbine. By 2026, that area will be much better transit-wise from a local & regional scope than just Pionner Village subway station

 

25 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It isn't the stadium that's the problem especially now they have got rid of the track but the perceived level of soccer so there's no easy magic bullet solution where York United's crowd woes are concerned.

The stadium is in the middle of nowhere and you have to give people more credit than that. They can see the difference between a real stadium and a decent university stadium. Also, at Woodbine - up to 60k people will live there and the area will have lots of entertainment venues (casino, racetrack, malls, bars, restaurants) - you know shit to do before and after the game.

You're actively being disingenuous if you think that this won't be a game changer for York's attendance

[Kingston]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The stadium is in the middle of nowhere and you have to give people more credit than that. They can see the difference between a real stadium and a decent university stadium. Also, at Woodbine - up to 60k people will live there and the area will have lots of entertainment venues (casino, racetrack, malls, bars, restaurants) 

You're actively being disingenuous if you think that this won't be a game changer for York's attendance

It could be a game changer for York's attendance.  I hope it is because otherwise York will have well and truly failed.  I would not assume, however, that just because these things are present, it will be a game changer.  I hope the team doesn't just think "we've moved to a better location, the fans will fill the stadium".  It might be easier, but the team will still need to do the hard work to let people know they exist and get them to come to games.  

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I would not assume, however, that just because these things are present, it will be a game changer.

It was for TFC when it started

• Liberty Village
• Exihibition place + Lake Ontario near downtown
• GO Station + Streetcars

Locals gave it an initial boost

 

10 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I hope the team doesn't just think "we've moved to a better location, the fans will fill the stadium".  It might be easier, but the team will still need to do the hard work to let people know they exist and get them to come to games.  

1000% agree - any failure at that point will be on the club

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Some people on here need to learn to respect the fact that people can simply disagree with them without there being a need to throw words like disingenuous around.

The Blizzard and the Lynx drew flies in the CSL and APSL at Varsity Stadium, which was a former CFL stadium in a great location for transit with lots to do in the surrounding area before and after a game. People in the GTA have not been showing up for lower budget pro level soccer for a very long time now and plenty of different investor groups have tried valiantly to make it work in the past.

From what I can see most of what Mark Noonan said about what is needed to succeed is clearly absent with York United beyond possibly the quality of the ownership so rather than beating a dead horse the sensible thing to do would be to move out from the GTA to a smaller regional city in southern Ontario that would actually badly want the team to be in their community.

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Some people on here need to learn to respect the fact that people can simply disagree with them without there being a need to throw words like disingenuous around.

The Blizzard and the Lynx drew flies in the CSL and APSL at Varsity Stadium, which was a former CFL stadium in a great location for transit with lots to do in the surrounding area before and after a game. People in the GTA have not been showing up for lower budget pro level soccer for a very long time now and plenty of different investor groups have tried valiantly to make it work in the past.

From what I can see most of what Mark Noonan said about what is needed to succeed is clearly absent with York United beyond possibly the quality of the ownership so rather than beating a dead horse the sensible thing to do would be to move out from the GTA to a smaller regional city in southern Ontario that would actually badly want the team to be in their community.

CSL - APSL? Really?

The word seems pretty appropriate

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The Blizzard and the Lynx drew flies in the CSL and APSL at Varsity Stadium, which was a former CFL stadium in a great location for transit with lots to do in the surrounding area before and after a game. People in the GTA have not been showing up for lower budget pro level soccer for a very long time now and plenty of different investor groups have tried valiantly to make it work in the past.

This is the principal reason I have questioned whether the CPL should be trying to share markets with MLS.

I'm not sure how things are in Vancouver, but Toronto has a bad history of supporting anything with a whiff of second-tier about it.  Even the long-established Argos suffer from this to a degree.

As I wrote elsewhere, it will be instructive to see how the new Vancouver CPL team does.  If they can succeed then York's problems look to be on York.  If they also fail, it may just be that sharing markets with MLS is a bad idea.

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

This is the principal reason I have questioned whether the CPL should be trying to share markets with MLS.

I'm not sure how things are in Vancouver, but Toronto has a bad history of supporting anything with a whiff of second-tier about it.  Even the long-established Argos suffer from this to a degree.

As I wrote elsewhere, it will be instructive to see how the new Vancouver CPL team does.  If they can succeed then York's problems look to be on York.  If they also fail, it may just be that sharing markets with MLS is a bad idea.

Not to sound disingenuous, or anything, but why do people in Toronto support the ~10-15th best soccer league in the world, but not the second best American Football league? Could it have more to do with being a big fish in the small pond of Canada, than it has to do with being second-tier? Is it salaries, or the glamour of American sports? I'm genuinely curious about the mentality in Toronto, because I don't understand it

Edited August 26, 2022 by Aird25

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Not to sound disingenuous, or anything, but why do people in Toronto support the ~10-15th best soccer league in the world

You're being generous nor is it #1 in the region either

 

45 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Could it have more to do with being a big fish in the small pond of Canada, than it has to do with being second-tier? Is it salaries, or the glamour of American sports? I'm genuinely curious about the mentality in Toronto, because I don't understand it

I don't understand it either.

I believe that if you market yourself correctly and have all your based covered - people will come. I live in North York and literally 98%+ people have no clue about York United who are next to the Tennis stadium which get packed when there's a tournament. For me - clearly, that's on the club.

We all agree the product on the pitch is good, there's definitely something to play for (CCL, CL, CanChamp).

You need a good game experience and attractive venue + marketing - that's where they are mostly lacking... Lions stadium isn't it but Woodbine could where you know that you'll be in the shades when it's hot or protected from the rain when you see clouds with the excitement of going to a good looking venue with stuff to do before and after the game.

It's a tired argument to default to "second tier this" or "CSL that". Do it right in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver and they will come. Half ass it like York 9 and it will flop.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

It's a tired argument to default to "second tier this" or "CSL that". Do it right in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver and they will come. Half ass it like York 9 and it will flop.

The BC Lions have had one of the great stories this year: a young, local, CANADIAN QB, who's been putting up great numbers and the team has been winning exciting games. The team is marketed well, and they're talked about on the radio frequently. Average attendance remains low, with only a concert at the game driving up the gate. In other words, the team has "done everything right" in Vancouver and the fans haven't come out. To deny that the "2nd tier" nature of sports is a factor in the major cities is rather myopic. 

[An Observer]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

It was for TFC when it started

• Liberty Village
• Exihibition place + Lake Ontario near downtown
• GO Station + Streetcars

Locals gave it an initial boost

 

1000% agree - any failure at that point will be on the club

The thing is that same location didn’t work for the Argos.  People - including me - thought that by putting the Argos in an appropriate sized stadium in a great location was all that was needed.  We were wrong. 

That being said, I suspect a new stadium in Woodbine could do the trick but they would also need to market the hell out of it in the first few years to generate buzz and ultimately loyalty. I am not 100% convinced as  what others have said. Toronto doesn’t have a strong track record of supporting (perceived) second tier sports 

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Not to sound disingenuous, or anything, but why do people in Toronto support the ~10-15th best soccer league in the world, but not the second best American Football league? Could it have more to do with being a big fish in the small pond of Canada, than it has to do with being second-tier? Is it salaries, or the glamour of American sports? I'm genuinely curious about the mentality in Toronto, because I don't understand it

The US league is the best league realistically available, so that's what Toronto wants.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

The BC Lions have had one of the great stories this year: a young, local, CANADIAN QB, who's been putting up great numbers and the team has been winning exciting games. The team is marketed well, and they're talked about on the radio frequently. Average attendance remains low, with only a concert at the game driving up the gate. In other words, the team has "done everything right" in Vancouver and the fans haven't come out. To deny that the "2nd tier" nature of sports is a factor in the major cities is rather myopic. 

Attendance has decreased... but disregarding demographic changes and immigration is just as myopic.

High rate of immigration that favors soccer over football and younger generations consuming more soccer than previous generations.

You've just compared apples to oranges

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

The thing is that same location didn’t work for the Argos.  People - including me - thought that by putting the Argos in an appropriate sized stadium in a great location was all that was needed.  We were wrong. 

That being said, I suspect a new stadium in Woodbine could do the trick but they would also need to market the hell out of it in the first few years to generate buzz and ultimately loyalty. I am not 100% convinced as  what others have said. Toronto doesn’t have a strong track record of supporting (perceived) second tier sports 

For football, like I said above - Toronto demographic is a huge factor. I think they'd draw much more somewhere else in suburban GTA.

As for Woodbine, yes it's on the club to do it right on marketing. All I'm saying is that being in the heart of a new neighborhood that will grow to ~60k helps a ton - it did for TFC when they drew from Liberty Village when not many gave MLS the time of day. We weren't thinking then "ohhhh it's first tier" - it was more "look at the stadium, it's close, it's a good show, we have a club and finally!!! Our own mother f'n soccer club.

There's an exaggeration with the 1st or second rate league. Anyone who has a clue knows that would be top euro leagues / Champions league. Up to York United to do the marketing work and efficiently.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The US league is the best league realistically available, so that's what Toronto wants.

US leagues are the best in the world at what they do... minus soccer. That difference matter.

While all the way from Finch and Sheppard-Yonge you can easily have trains filled with Blue Jays/Maple Leafs/Raptors colors, it's just not the same tging on TFC day. 

TFC aren't in the same hat as the other (yet), but I agree that it's up to the clubs to make itself attractive to draw within their area with a true soccer venue with the marketing and quality on the pitch.

There's potential to build a fanbase on the north side, no one's really claiming that CPL will take the south and make them trek north. There's lots of fans still left to claim

That goes for Montreal too, lots of fans available on the Island to grab from West Island to NDG to the heavily diverse & populated Villeray/Parc-Extension

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ansem

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

The BC Lions have had one of the great stories this year: a young, local, CANADIAN QB, who's been putting up great numbers and the team has been winning exciting games. The team is marketed well, and they're talked about on the radio frequently. Average attendance remains low, with only a concert at the game driving up the gate. In other words, the team has "done everything right" in Vancouver and the fans haven't come out. To deny that the "2nd tier" nature of sports is a factor in the major cities is rather myopic. 

I agree with this, but I also believe the variety of summer entertainment/recreation options has increased considerably over the last several decades and may have had an effect on pro sports attendance.