CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Obinna]

Just now, Haligonian#1 said:

While I have only been to Ottawa two times, which according to you is two times more than you have been, please educate me on what more Ottawa has than Halifax. I know they have the Sens, which rarely conflicts with the CPL schedule. They have CFL, but the people who regularly attend CFL matches are not the same type of people who would attend soccer matches, different crowd altogether. Ottawa has a very nice War Museum, but one would visit that infrequently. It has more big name concerts than Halifax would get...but the music industry is not what it used to be. It has bars, we have bars. It has nice parks, we have nice parks. It has the Rideau Canal, we have the Ocean. My point is that Hamilton and Ottawa are not NYC, Paris, or London, UK. You get bored in those two cities just as much as you would in Halifax.

Yes I get that. I am not pretending Ottawa is a mecca and Halifax is a village, but I am saying you shouldn't downplay the CFL factor. Yes there is not a great deal of overlap, but you do have people who really enjoy both. You also have people who are casual towards both and are just looking for something to do, because as you point out there's not a whole lot else to do in such places. Halifax doesn't have a CFL team, so that alone cuts into the attendance for Ottawa. I am not an Ottawa expert, but I do live in Calgary which probably serves as a good analog.

Anyways, I guess my point is that if you live in Ottawa and want to see pro sports in the summer you have the CFL or the CPL, but in Halifax you have just one of those. Moreover, generally speaking you don't really have pro sports in Halifax in general, but in Ottawa you also have the Sens, so if you have the itch to watch a pro game you actually have 3 options, depending on what time of the year you are talking. And finally, I think there's something to be said about living in a small city and feeling a desperation to see pro sports. I say that based on my own experience growing up in St. John's, which yes is only half the size of Halifax, but both are Atlantic Canadian cities with no pro sports, basically.

I bet if St. John's had a CPL franchise they would match Halifax for the reasons I am saying. Would we then argue that St. John's has double the soccer fans per capita than Halifax, since it's half the size? Of course not!

[jonovision]

Attendances for this week's matches from CanPL.ca:

• Valour (home) vs Cavalry: 3200
• Forge vs Halifax: 3527
• Ottawa vs Edmonton: 6574
• Valour vs York: 2907

[Haligonian#1]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Calgary vs Halifax is a good comparison we should perhaps make. 

(I don't know the attendance numbers so well, so bare with me)

Halifax, as far as I know, outperforms Calgary when it comes to attendance. It is fair to say Cavalry outperform the Wanderers on the pitch. Both teams have a similar capacity, if not the same. I would consider Calgary to be in a stable-to-good position when it comes to attendance, and Halifax to be in a great position, seeing they come closest to maxing out their stadium. 

So why does Halifax outperform Calgary when the latter has roughly triple the population? Is it because Halifax has 3 times the number of soccer fans relative to the population? I really doubt that. It has to be at least partly due to the fact the Wanderers are the only show in town, while the Cavs compete with the Stampeders who have been entrenched in the cities sporting culture for decades. Halifax also has an easier location to get to, so that's a factor too. I just really think you need to give other factors some due here. 

I think we do better than Calgary on the stadium location. In past posts I have mentioned that as the biggest reason for the success, the second one being the Team creating connections with the community. If the stadium had gone to half a dozen other likely locations within HRM, the team would have been a bust and Derek Martin knows it. I like soccer, but I would never have bought season tickets (2019, 2021, and 2022) to go watch a team at Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossing, etc. The location is ideal and, apart from overall market, should be the most important criterion when reviewing future expansion clubs.

I do want to hit on the CFL angle. I think a soccer fan has a different mentality than a football fan. Football does well in Texas, but MLS not so much. The same might be true for Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan. Toronto is a diversified market, so all sports tend to do well. Quebec has a European flair, so I think their might be an untapped market their. Recently a CFL natch was held in Wolfville, NS with a "big party" in Halifax. Most people in Halifax either didn't know about it or didn't care. People were making fun at work on the Monday about stumbling across Westerners thinking that the whole city was going to turn up for the event. It was the Jazz Fest, the Pride Parade weekend, going to the beach, etc. In other words, for the most part, people in Halifax couldn't care less for the CFL. I am not attacking the CFL, just that it is a totally different sport and the fans of one are not necessarily the fans of the other. I think Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Regina/Saskatoon will be poor markets for soccer on the short to medium term.

[Haligonian#1]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yes I get that. I am not pretending Ottawa is a mecca and Halifax is a village, but I am saying you shouldn't downplay the CFL factor. Yes there is not a great deal of overlap, but you do have people who really enjoy both. You also have people who are casual towards both and are just looking for something to do, because as you point out there's not a whole lot else to do in such places. Halifax doesn't have a CFL team, so that alone cuts into the attendance for Ottawa. I am not an Ottawa expert, but I do live in Calgary which probably serves as a good analog.

Anyways, I guess my point is that if you live in Ottawa and want to see pro sports in the summer you have the CFL or the CPL, but in Halifax you have just one of those. Moreover, generally speaking you don't really have pro sports in Halifax in general, but in Ottawa you also have the Sens, so if you have the itch to watch a pro game you actually have 3 options, depending on what time of the year you are talking. And finally, I think there's something to be said about living in a small city and feeling a desperation to see pro sports. I say that based on my own experience growing up in St. John's, which yes is only half the size of Halifax, but both are Atlantic Canadian cities with no pro sports, basically.

I bet if St. John's had a CPL franchise they would match Halifax for the reasons I am saying. Would we then argue that St. John's has double the soccer fans per capita than Halifax, since it's half the size? Of course not!

I am not sure about St. John's. I wish that were the case, but they have had a checkered past with hockey (AHL, etc).

[Haligonian#1]

5 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I think we do better than Calgary on the stadium location. In past posts I have mentioned that as the biggest reason for the success, the second one being the Team creating connections with the community. If the stadium had gone to half a dozen other likely locations within HRM, the team would have been a bust and Derek Martin knows it. I like soccer, but I would never have bought season tickets (2019, 2021, and 2022) to go watch a team at Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossing, etc. The location is ideal and, apart from overall market, should be the most important criterion when reviewing future expansion clubs.

I do want to hit on the CFL angle. I think a soccer fan has a different mentality than a football fan. Football does well in Texas, but MLS not so much. The same might be true for Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan. Toronto is a diversified market, so all sports tend to do well. Quebec has a European flair, so I think their might be an untapped market their. Recently a CFL natch was held in Wolfville, NS with a "big party" in Halifax. Most people in Halifax either didn't know about it or didn't care. People were making fun at work on the Monday about stumbling across Westerners thinking that the whole city was going to turn up for the event. It was the Jazz Fest, the Pride Parade weekend, going to the beach, etc. In other words, for the most part, people in Halifax couldn't care less for the CFL. I am not attacking the CFL, just that it is a totally different sport and the fans of one are not necessarily the fans of the other. I think Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Regina/Saskatoon will be poor markets for soccer on the short to medium term.

I have posted in the past that CPL should avoid both MLS and CFL markets for the reasons you cite. That is why I believe that the best untapped market is Quebec City, not Saskatoon (because of the Roughriders in Regina).

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I think we do better than Calgary on the stadium location. In past posts I have mentioned that as the biggest reason for the success, the second one being the Team creating connections with the community. If the stadium had gone to half a dozen other likely locations within HRM, the team would have been a bust and Derek Martin knows it. I like soccer, but I would never have bought season tickets (2019, 2021, and 2022) to go watch a team at Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossing, etc. The location is ideal and, apart from overall market, should be the most important criterion when reviewing future expansion clubs.

I do want to hit on the CFL angle. I think a soccer fan has a different mentality than a football fan. Football does well in Texas, but MLS not so much. The same might be true for Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan. Toronto is a diversified market, so all sports tend to do well. Quebec has a European flair, so I think their might be an untapped market their. Recently a CFL natch was held in Wolfville, NS with a "big party" in Halifax. Most people in Halifax either didn't know about it or didn't care. People were making fun at work on the Monday about stumbling across Westerners thinking that the whole city was going to turn up for the event. It was the Jazz Fest, the Pride Parade weekend, going to the beach, etc. In other words, for the most part, people in Halifax couldn't care less for the CFL. I am not attacking the CFL, just that it is a totally different sport and the fans of one are not necessarily the fans of the other. I think Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Regina/Saskatoon will be poor markets for soccer on the short to medium term.

Yeah I mentioned the stadium location in my post and I agree, it was a great choice. You say yourself that's a big factor in the success. Why then would you suggest it's down to Ottawa not having many soccer fans relative to Halifax? 

As for the CFL angle, I get what you are saying and there's some truth to that. The western cities are way more into football than back east, I won't deny that. That said, soccer feels every bit as popular here in Calgary as it does back in Newfoundland, if not more. It is very multicultural and with that comes a passion for soccer. Halifax is becoming more multicultural too, but it isn't as multicultural as Calgary is, or Edmonton. Maybe it's on par with Winnipeg in that regard, but it's been over a decade since I have been to either city, so I won't pretend to know.

I don't worry about soccer being a poor market in Calgary in the short to medium term.

I do worry about Winnipeg though, for a few reasons. 

I am definitely not worried about Halifax.

[Haligonian#1]

5 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I am not sure about St. John's. I wish that were the case, but they have had a checkered past with hockey (AHL, etc).

St. John's has been home to several professional hockey franchises. The St. John's Maple Leafs were an American Hockey League (AHL) team from 1991 to 2005. The team left after the 2004–05 season to Toronto due to the desire of its parent team, the Toronto Maple Leafs, to reduce travel costs and to have a tenant for its Ricoh Coliseum.

Shortly after, the Maple Leafs were replaced by the St. John's Fog Devils of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL). The team left St. John's in 2008 after just three seasons due to a poor lease arrangement with the city over the use of Mile One Centre and poor attendance.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I am not sure about St. John's. I wish that were the case, but they have had a checkered past with hockey (AHL, etc).

Of course, but that was never an attendance issue. All of those teams were well attended. The issue was and always has been travel expenses. 

I imagine a CPL side in Newfoundland would face similar issues. Attendance-wise though it would be a hit, I am sure. And in King George you have a venue ready to go. However, it's very debatable if it would survive due to the travel factor.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Haligonian#1 said:

St. John's has been home to several professional hockey franchises. The St. John's Maple Leafs were an American Hockey League (AHL) team from 1991 to 2005. The team left after the 2004–05 season to Toronto due to the desire of its parent team, the Toronto Maple Leafs, to reduce travel costs and to have a tenant for its Ricoh Coliseum.

Shortly after, the Maple Leafs were replaced by the St. John's Fog Devils of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL). The team left St. John's in 2008 after just three seasons due to a poor lease arrangement with the city over the use of Mile One Centre and poor attendance.

IIRC the attendance dropped once it appeared the team was going to fail, but the attendance was not the driving factor there, it was the lease arrangement. Going off of memory though, which I can't say is accurate for sure. I did live there at the time, though.

[Haligonian#1]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I mentioned the stadium location in my post and I agree, it was a great choice. You say yourself that's a big factor in the success. Why then would you suggest it's down to Ottawa not having many soccer fans relative to Halifax? 

As for the CFL angle, I get what you are saying and there's some truth to that. The western cities are way more into football than back east, I won't deny that. That said, soccer feels every bit as popular here in Calgary as it does back in Newfoundland, if not more. It is very multicultural and with that comes a passion for soccer. Halifax is becoming more multicultural too, but it isn't as multicultural as Calgary is, or Edmonton. Maybe it's on par with Winnipeg in that regard, but it's been over a decade since I have been to either city, so I won't pretend to know.

I don't worry about soccer being a poor market in Calgary in the short to medium term.

I do worry about Winnipeg though, for a few reasons. 

I am definitely not worried about Halifax.

I think we agree on a lot of stuff, but I disagree that Ottawa has a strong soccer fan base. They haven't proven it yet to me. The Montreal Impacts, before they joined MLS, already had strong crowds in the 10-12K range. This even in a hockey crazy city and one that has CFL and for some time the Expos (bad stadium and bad stadium location).

No one has ever said that Ottawa has a bad stadium location or a bad stadium...so why aren't they attracting larger crowds?

[Haligonian#1]

Just now, Haligonian#1 said:

I think we agree on a lot of stuff, but I disagree that Ottawa has a strong soccer fan base. They haven't proven it yet to me. The Montreal Impacts, before they joined MLS, already had strong crowds in the 10-12K range. This even in a hockey crazy city and one that has CFL and for some time the Expos (bad stadium and bad stadium location).

No one has ever said that Ottawa has a bad stadium location or a bad stadium...so why aren't they attracting larger crowds?

The Whitecaps also had strong attendance over a long period before joining MLS.

[Haligonian#1]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

IIRC the attendance dropped once it appeared the team was going to fail, but the attendance was not the driving factor there, it was the lease arrangement. Going off of memory though, which I can't say is accurate for sure. I did live there at the time, though.

I stand corrected...but if they can have similar crowds as Halifax...then travel shouldn't be too much of an issue. They do have national sponsors (WestJet, etc.).

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I think we agree on a lot of stuff, but I disagree that Ottawa has a strong soccer fan base. They haven't proven it yet to me. The Montreal Impacts, before they joined MLS, already had strong crowds in the 10-12K range. This even in a hockey crazy city and one that has CFL and for some time the Expos (bad stadium and bad stadium location).

No one has ever said that Ottawa has a bad stadium location or a bad stadium...so why aren't they attracting larger crowds?

The stadium is a pretty good location, I think, but it's far too large. You lose the intimate atmosphere that Halifax or Calgary has, which is a con. Hamilton is similar to Ottawa in both respects, but they are a hit on the field, arguably the flagship franchise of the league, while Ottawa are competitive this year, but came off a mediocre few years. 

I do think it's fair to ask them to prove it to you. I like that. I also think your expectations need to be more realistic, that's all. You can't expect Ottawa to triple the attendance of Halifax, even though their stadium can take that. You're just glossing over too many other factors, know what I mean?

Besides that, I agree that we do agree on most of this.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Obinna

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I stand corrected...but if they can have similar crowds as Halifax...then travel shouldn't be too much of an issue. They do have national sponsors (WestJet, etc.).

That's true. I mean, I would love to see them in the mix. I am just skeptical they'd pull it off. Newfoundland doesn't have a good track record, despite an obvious desire for pro sports or just high level sports in general.

Like I mentioned earlier, the national challenge cups in the past have been stellar for attendance. I attended the national challenge cup in Calgary and barely anyone showed up, by comparison.

And to me, that speaks to the fact there's way more to do here than in Newfoundland. There are few soccer nerds like me in Calgary who would take time out of their day to watch that, and even for me the reason I attended was to watch a club I used to play for back in Newfoundland. By contrast, in Newfoundland there really isn't much to do, so if there's a national tournament of any kind and you life sports, you probably are more so inclined to check it out. 

[Haligonian#1]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

The stadium is a pretty good location, I think, but it's far too large. You lose the intimate atmosphere that Halifax or Calgary has, which is a con. Hamilton is similar to Ottawa in both respects, but they are a hit on the field, arguably the flagship franchise of the league, while Ottawa are competitive this year, but came off a mediocre few years. 

I do think it's fair to ask them to prove it to you. I like that. I also think your expectations need to be more realistic, that's all. You can't expect Ottawa to triple the attendance of Ottawa, even though their stadium can take that. You're just glossing over too many other factors, know what I mean?

Besides that, I agree that we do agree on most of this.

I am not even asking them to necessarily triple their attendance ...but they should be averaging 6-8K per match to be considered even a remote success. Not 4,500. Especially when they are doing well on the pitch.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I am not even asking them to necessarily triple their attendance ...but they should be averaging 6-8K per match to be considered even a remote success. Not 4,500. Especially when they are doing well on the pitch.

That's fair. I guess you're right, we do pretty much agree. I'd grant you that averaging 6-8k should be the goal in the short/medium term if you'd grant me that 4.5K isn't cause to hit the alarm bell, at least right now. I expect Ottawa to make steady progress and climb to 6-8k over time. Can they do it? Only time will tell.

Cheers!

Edited August 9, 2022 by Obinna

[Haligonian#1]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's fair. I guess you're right, we do pretty much agree. I'd grant you that averaging 6-8k should be the goal in the short/medium term if you'd grant me that 4.5K isn't cause to hit the alarm bell, at least right now. I expect Ottawa to make steady progress and climb to 6-8k over time. Can they do it? Only time will tell.

Cheers!

I am not hitting the panic button on Ottawa yet, but if they can't grow their attendance in the next 5-6 years to a more sustainable level then I think we should all be concerned. I am very concerned about Edmonton and Winnipeg. York might survive a few more years...but that is about it.

 

Cheers 

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, Tigers said:

What teams could physically fit 10,000 without building or moving? Hamilton, Ottawa, Winnipeg. And Hamilton and Ottawa seem a bit further than Winnipeg in that regard. 

And those are stadiums that get the tons of flak...they dont have the cozy atmosphere, poor experience, looks bad on TV.

And without dipping into the rabid, defend my part of canada vibe that has taken over here, I'll just say that Winnipeg has the Bombers and minor league Goldeye baseball that eats up summer entertainment/sponsor dollars.  The goldeyes were for years a top drawing club in their league (5-6k) with a beautiful park (6K) but are down more of a 3k level of support this season.  That might not mean shit to anyone, but prior to CPL thats where I took my family in WPG for family outings and I dont particularly watch baseball.  Some of these cities may be twice as big, but they also might have twice as many options for the summertime casuals dollar.  

[SpursFlu]

I have a question because I really like Ottawa's stadium. It looks great and I like the atmosphere it has generated. If Atletico made it to the CPL finals and hosted.. what do people think the attendance would be?

[Big_M]

They would give out free tickets and fill it up or pretty close to it

[Haligonian#1]

26 minutes ago, Big_M said:

They would give out free tickets and fill it up or pretty close to it

Giving huge amounts of tickets away will not make for a sustainable league. 

[Big_M]

for a final the point is not to be sustainable

[SpursFlu]

I was just asking a simple question. I thought someone familiar with the market could take a stab at it. I'm kinda thinking it would be a good look for the league

Edited August 10, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Big_M]

highest attendance of atletico has been around 12k...fury around 15...so as I said if they get to a final 20-24k

[Ozzie_the_parrot]