CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Ya, we should just kill any progress made on a domestic league if attendance doesn't reach some arbitrary number by some arbitrary date. 

Ridiculous...

We? I didn't know I had a vote. 

Oh ok sarcasm 😉 got it

Edited June 3, 2022 by SpursFlu

[shermanator]

I don't think people realize how long it's going to take to change the culture around the professional game in this country. Outside of 3 clubs, it has failed for the first 152 year of this country's existence. That doesn't turn around in a year or two.

There are some great things being done in cities where professional soccer has never succeeded in this country. And we are also starting to see this excitement trickle down to the lower leagues in places like Peterborough and to a lesser extent places like Guelph, North Vancouver, Kamloops, Barrie. And yes, there are a couple places where clubs are struggling immensely and don't look like they will make it long term. 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

I don't think people realize how long it's going to take to change the culture around the professional game in this country. Outside of 3 clubs, it has failed for the first 152 year of this country's existence. That doesn't turn around in a year or two. 

I do think people realize how long it will take to change the professional game in this country. What I think a number of us also think is that there's owners in the league who don't realize it, and will eventually get tired of the losses. It's essentially already happened once.

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, shermanator said:

I don't think people realize how long it's going to take to change the culture around the professional game in this country. Outside of 3 clubs, it has failed for the first 152 year of this country's existence. That doesn't turn around in a year or two.

The question is whether the owners will be willing to sustain the losses long enough for that change to happen.

I don't think I am the only one who was hoping the CP teams would start with attendances above 5000 and grow from there, rather than staring in the 3000s and trying to grow from there.  Growing from a long term viable position is quite different than growing toward a long term viable position.

[Colonel Green]

17 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

One would have to think if we cant get the average up to at least 4000 at some point maybe it doesn't make sense to have a professional league. Im not saying it has to be today or tomorrow but as some point I think we need to be in the 4000 ball park to even justify it.

I mean…yes?

Nobody has ever suggested that it’s viable for the CPL to lose money indefinitely or that the ownership groups would tolerate that.

The CPL has been open that all their plans hinge on 2026. If the World Cup comes and goes without making a meaningful difference, the league is probably not going to last much longer.

[Aird25]

It could change so quickly. The fans are there in these cities. We’ve seen that based on promoted one off games. They just need convincing to come out more regularly. I’m a bit concerned that it seems clubs are doing less and less to convince fans to come out. That certainly seems to be the case in Victoria where the game day investment seems to have dwindled this season along with coverage by local news. 
However my biggest concern is the obsession with this topic and the lack of discussion on the league and players themselves. This thread is more active than virtually any teams thread 

[Kingston]

3 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The CPL has been open that all their plans hinge on 2026. If the World Cup comes and goes without making a meaningful difference, the league is probably not going to last much longer.

Which worries me.  The idea that interest in the World Cup is going to drive attendance in the CPL is suspect.  It smacks of the same thinking that suggests that because a national team game drew well in a particular city, that city must be a great spot for a CPL team.  I don't see Edmonton turning fans away from a sold out Clarke Stadium.  

MLS attendance over the years hasn't shown any World Cup bumps.  That's not the CPL but the countries are pretty similar when it comes to soccer.

I hope things go well for the CPL, but I don't see the World Cup suddenly adding a huge amount to interest and attendance.

[Kingston]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

However my biggest concern is the obsession with this topic and the lack of discussion on the league and players themselves. This thread is more active than virtually any teams thread 

Straight math.  Fans of all teams are interested in attendance and post on this thread.  Mostly only fans of that particular team post on any given team's thread.

[Colonel Green]

1 minute ago, Kingston said:

MLS attendance over the years hasn't shown any World Cup bumps. 

I mean, MLS owes its existence to the World Cup.

The thinking isn’t that the World Cup in general will make a big change, rather that the World Cup (partly) on home soil will.

There’s admittedly not much in the way of comparables for this because nations that host the World Cup typically already have a well-established domestic scene. But it’s the best shot at creating a lasting domestic league that the CSA is likely to have in the next quarter century.

And if it fails, well, then it fails, see you all in 2045.

[toontownman]

It is why the smaller stadiums are the way forward unless there is a very cheap deal to be in the bigger ones. Build on demand. That initial spend on a new build doesn't come free either though.

I haven't looked it up but are attendence figures not down in general for MLS clubs too? How does it relate to other sports. Hockey and CFL seemed to still be pretty full. I have without any justification supposed the soccer crowd are more likely a covid cautious and there are many that aren't at the "go attend" stage. Although we are seeing most places getting back to "normal" now. Maybe peoples priorities and finances have changed enough to keep people away. 

I also don't know what kind of marketing the CPL clubs do in and around their markets and with covid if they have slowed their community relationship building and outreach?

[narduch]

An interesting thing about MLS is that it kicked off in 1996. It took 15 years for average attendance to surpass the average attendance from that year!

Its worst season for attendance was in the 5th season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer_attendance

CPL just needs to stay within its means as it continues to try to grow.

Edited June 3, 2022 by narduch

[toontownman]

While I hate the term almost as much as I hate open plan stadiums that allow people to waltz around....What does the general "match day experience" look like at each club? Are there things built in and around the the games, at the stadium, nearby, during etc. Is that a pulling factor or turn off? Could more be done?

Coming from the European background it is such a turn off and likewise a huge disspointment the potential Sask stadium rendering as haven't been enclosed. 

To me there is nothing like walking into an enclosed stadium, coming up the steps to the arena which is a total escape and release from everyday life. More so its a total focus on what you are there for, to support the team and watch the game. It makes you feel part of something. Anything else is counterintuitive and counterproductive to having people watching the game. 

It is like we are building an all round inclusive family environment that works against one of the biggest selling feature of the game, the unique crowd interaction and atmosphere. New owners seem to demand that atmosphere is created by supporters groups while also providing a "safe relaxed space" and something for everyone that takes away from large scale focus, work supporters groups are doing and causes distraction from the game. It is incredibly hard to do both imo. Maybe it does work in the States like that? 🤷‍♂️  To me letting people mill around all the time is creating a culture that the game is secondary to hanging out and having a good time. Build that in and around game by all means but not during. That culture will simply bleed into all areas of the club including on the pitch. IMO.

 

[Stanley]

25 minutes ago, toontownman said:

While I hate the term almost as much as I hate open plan stadiums that allow people to waltz around....What does the general "match day experience" look like at each club? Are there things built in and around the the games, at the stadium, nearby, during etc. Is that a pulling factor or turn off? Could more be done?

Coming from the European background it is such a turn off and likewise a huge disspointment the potential Sask stadium rendering as haven't been enclosed. 

To me there is nothing like walking into an enclosed stadium, coming up the steps to the arena which is a total escape and release from everyday life. More so its a total focus on what you are there for, to support the team and watch the game. It makes you feel part of something. Anything else is counterintuitive and counterproductive to having people watching the game. 

It is like we are building an all round inclusive family environment that works against one of the biggest selling feature of the game, the unique crowd interaction and atmosphere. New owners seem to demand that atmosphere is created by supporters groups while also providing a "safe relaxed space" and something for everyone that takes away from large scale focus, work supporters groups are doing and causes distraction from the game. It is incredibly hard to do both imo. Maybe it does work in the States like that? 🤷‍♂️  To me letting people mill around all the time is creating a culture that the game is secondary to hanging out and having a good time. Build that in and around game by all means but not during. That culture will simply bleed into all areas of the club including on the pitch. IMO.

 

I used to argue this all the time back in the day, I agree with you wholeheartedly.  

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

I mean, MLS owes its existence to the World Cup.

The thinking isn’t that the World Cup in general will make a big change, rather that the World Cup (partly) on home soil will.

There’s admittedly not much in the way of comparables for this because nations that host the World Cup typically already have a well-established domestic scene. But it’s the best shot at creating a lasting domestic league that the CSA is likely to have in the next quarter century.

And if it fails, well, then it fails, see you all in 2045.

France got a sizable bump in domestic league attendance from hosting the World Cup in 1998.

All numbers from transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.us/ligue-1/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/FR1/plus/?saison_id=2021)

Now there are reasons why this isn't an apples to apples comparison to Canada.

1. France was the sole host, not a minority host.

2. France I believe built or at least heavily renovated stadiums that I am sure teams in their league then used afterwards. New stadiums bring in more fans.

3. France won the whole World Cup in 1998. As big a fan as I am of Canada, I feel safe in saying it is unlikely that Canada wins the 2026 World Cup.

I have no idea if other countries got attendance boosts as well. I remembered seeing a graph of this a little while back, I believe somewhere on this site. I couldn't find that graph so I just looked up some numbers around that time.

[Kingston]

11 minutes ago, Kent said:

As big a fan as I am of Canada, I feel safe in saying it is unlikely that Canada wins the 2026 World Cup.

What?  You should be ashamed of this heresy, sir!  Ashamed, I tell you!

[Colonel Green]

14 minutes ago, Kent said:

France got a sizable bump in domestic league attendance from hosting the World Cup in 1998.

What I meant was that we don't have a lot of comparables for the effect of hosting the World Cup on a country where soccer isn't already the #1 sport (complete with an established world-class domestic league).

Of course, the World Cup wouldn't have to completely transform soccer in Canada to goose domestic league attendance up to the level of viability, either.

[Lurker]

Very simple idea… for the bigger stadiums, force people into one or two sections, likely near the center.  If you sell enough tickets open another section, etc etc.  Keep the supporters close to the casuals… see how it goes and adjust.

Edit:  if you want to keep the supporters separate, make sure they’re in an adjacent section, basically as close as possible.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Lurker

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

What?  You should be ashamed of this heresy, sir!  Ashamed, I tell you!

Well, it's hard to win back to back World Cups.

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, toontownman said:

I haven't looked it up but are attendence figures not down in general for MLS clubs too? How does it relate to other sports.

I haven't tracked how all the other sports are doing, and sometimes its hard to tell what's because of Covid and what's because of the local team sucking.  The one experience I've had so far where I think it was clear people weren't ready to come back yet was the Rugby 7s in Vancouver this year. Pre-pandemic, attendence was about 38k a day. This year, it was 18k a day. There were no entrance restrictions or capped attendence in place. And unlike local sports teams, rugby 7s isn't really about how good/bad the host nation is. It's just an event.  So when I see the Whitecaps attendence being down, absolutely it's in part because they're not very good, but that might not be the whole story.

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

What I meant was that we don't have a lot of comparables for the effect of hosting the World Cup on a country where soccer isn't already the #1 sport (complete with an established world-class domestic league).

Of course, the World Cup wouldn't have to completely transform soccer in Canada to goose domestic league attendance up to the level of viability, either.

I would think that something like the K-League and J-League pre/post 2002 might be the best comparable.

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, Kingston said:

Which worries me.  The idea that interest in the World Cup is going to drive attendance in the CPL is suspect.  It smacks of the same thinking that suggests that because a national team game drew well in a particular city, that city must be a great spot for a CPL team.  I don't see Edmonton turning fans away from a sold out Clarke Stadium.  

MLS attendance over the years hasn't shown any World Cup bumps.  That's not the CPL but the countries are pretty similar when it comes to soccer.

I hope things go well for the CPL, but I don't see the World Cup suddenly adding a huge amount to interest and attendance.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing. After all, it's been nearly a year since the women won Gold at the Olympics and people screamed "now is the time for a pro league! 4 million people love women's soccer" and we don't even seem remotely close to one.  I will say that the attendance numbers for a world cup "bump" for the CPL vs MLS can be lower but still impactful. Another 1000 people at an MLS game is negligible. Another 1000 at a CPL game brings most teams close to the hoped for attendance figures. 

[ted]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:01 PM, grasshopper1917 said:

Im not saying it has to be today or tomorrow but as some point I think we need to be in the 4000 ball park to even justify it.

I've been saying since 2018 that success would be an average of 5,000 per game in the fifth season of the league (and earlier mentioned that 2020 & 2021 cannot reasonably be counted for this purpose due to COVID). I think we are on track for meeting that goal by 2025. The 2022 World Cup campaign and the hosting of 2026 can help promote soccer in this country generally so while criticisms are helpful and deserved on a case by case basis, I see no reason to be pessimistic overall.

[Haligonian#1]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:52 PM, Ansem said:

Derek Martin said 2024 on twitter - seems like a formality, really

 

2 hours ago, ted said:

I've been saying since 2018 that success would be an average of 5,000 per game in the fifth season of the league (and earlier mentioned that 2020 & 2021 cannot reasonably be counted for this purpose due to COVID). I think we are on track for meeting that goal by 2025. The 2022 World Cup campaign and the hosting of 2026 can help promote soccer in this country generally so while criticisms are helpful and deserved on a case by case basis, I see no reason to be pessimistic overall.

Halifax had over 6,000 fans at the match today, so we are already meeting your success threshold. The league now needs to work on the other 7 teams.

[ted]

4 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

Halifax had over 6,000 fans at the match today, so we are already meeting your success threshold. The league now needs to work on the other 7 teams.

Yup, Halifax should be a model for the league and is one of the reasons I am reasonably optimistic.

Do keep in mind however that that 5,000 is not a final goal or perfect and it is is league-wide so when it is achieved some teams might average more and some less than 5K per game for that season. It is simply a stepping stone to a sustainable pro league.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:35 PM, Colonel Green said:

...The CPL has been open that all their plans hinge on 2026. If the World Cup comes and goes without making a meaningful difference, the league is probably not going to last much longer.

Or they could downscale a bit and find a business model that operates comfortably on the 2500 or so paid they are actually attracting that revolves mainly around regional bus travel and developing U-23 players. The mentality in Canadian soccer is that the sport is somehow new to people though and there is a great leap forward waiting tantalizingly just around the corner for the newly found investors who have a pair of dollar signs before their eyes like a cartoon character and who initially at least are convinced they are onto the next big thing.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality you could find something like yesterday's TFC vs Forge game happening as far back as 60 years ago with the Steelers playing against either Toronto City or Italia. 40 or so years ago NSL teams in cities like St Catherines and London could attract 2000 to games. The problem has always been keeping expectations in check and finding an economic model that actually works sustainably once the newly found investors get to the Fath brothers stage of their participation. Insert the hackneyed George Santayana quote here basically.

In general, CanPL crowd numbers have probably settled into a fairly fixed pattern now so this type of thread may have largely run its course until 2026 when signs of a post-World Cup uptick may well be critical for the reasons outlined above.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot