CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Or they could downscale a bit and find a business model that operates comfortably on the 2500 or so paid they are actually attracting that revolves mainly around regional bus travel and developing U-23 players.

You could do so. However this would mean the end of pro (or semi-pro or whatever your model entails) soccer outside of the lower mainland of BC and the Windsor-Quebec corridor.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I mentioned more of a U-23 focus for a reason and it wasn't so the league would be semi-pro in its approach. Check out some of the bus trips PDL teams like the Thunder Bay Chill manage to do in soccer with college scholarship players or ECHL teams do in hockey where a very low budget fully professional setup is involved.

[Ivan]

25 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I mentioned more of a U-23 focus for a reason and it wasn't so the league would be semi-pro in its approach. Check out some of the bus trips PDL teams like the Thunder Bay Chill manage to do in soccer with college scholarship players or ECHL teams do in hockey where a very low budget fully professional setup is involved.

Is this really what you want for Canadian Soccer Ozzie?  Is this what you think is best for the game in this country?  We have a league with (thankfully) a number of people willing to put money into it and see if it grows, which it seems to be doing in spite of disappointing attendance in some markets.  Let's see what happens.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Is this really what you want for Canadian Soccer Ozzie? ...

Seriously bud do you not understand the difference between wanting something to happen and thinking something is the level of operations that is actually going to be doable sustainably and would be better than having yet another league fold outright?

Instead, I would want the CFL to fold because all of Canadian society suddenly realizes that there is only one worthwhile form of sport truly worthy of being called football and start showing up for CanPL games in 20,000 crowds so that TFC, CF Montreal and the Whitecaps are begging to be allowed in.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality they only draw that sort of crowd for Hajduk vs Dinamo in your forefather's land where people actually do realize that soccer is the only worthwhile form of nogomet and have a national team that makes it to the World Cup final. Reality can be a bit of a downer sometimes.

[narduch]

21 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Is this really what you want for Canadian Soccer Ozzie?  Is this what you think is best for the game in this country?  We have a league with (thankfully) a number of people willing to put money into it and see if it grows, which it seems to be doing in spite of disappointing attendance in some markets.  Let's see what happens.

I guess now that his previous assertion that CPL needs MLS reserve teams has been proven to be wrong, his new hobby horse is that CPL should be come a bus league. LMFAO.

All this a day after one CPL squad just hosted a match with over 13,000 people.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

At no point have I advocated that MLS reserves teams rather than separately branded affiliates should be part of CanPL. Won't be responding further unless somebody posts something intelligent rather than going over the same old ground like this.

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

At no point have I advocated that MLS reserves teams rather than separately branded affiliates should be part of CanPL. Won't be responding further unless somebody posts something intelligent rather than going over the same old ground like this.

The guy advocating for the CPL to become a bus league is attacking the intelligence of other posters.

[longlugan]

19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

At no point have I advocated that MLS reserves teams rather than separately branded affiliates should be part of CanPL. Won't be responding further unless somebody posts something intelligent rather than going over the same old ground like this.

So when are you going to post something resembling intelligent?

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Seriously bud do you not understand the difference between wanting something to happen and thinking something is the level of operations that is actually going to be doable sustainably and would be better than having yet another league fold outright?

Instead, I would want the CFL to fold because all of Canadian society suddenly realizes that there is only one worthwhile form of sport truly worthy of being called football and start showing up for CanPL games in 20,000 crowds so that TFC, CF Montreal and the Whitecaps are begging to be allowed in.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality they only draw that sort of crowd for Hajduk vs Dinamo in your forefather's land where people actually do realize that soccer is the only worthwhile form of nogomet and have a national team that makes it to the World Cup final. Reality can be a bit of a downer sometimes.

But that's your mundane reality Ozzie.  The glass half full reality if you will.  My reality is we have one team massively exceeding expectations, 3 others doing okay, albeit below expectation, and two teams struggling and to be worried about.  We've added 1 team with another on the way next year with, hopefully, another couple joining in the next few years.  I think it's something to build on without taking a massive step backwards.  All this during a pandemic!

Yes, we are rehashing the same arguments, I agree with you there.

 

[shermanator]

Casual reminder that Ozzie has been trying to kill the idea of a Canadian domestic league for years, while CPL ownership groups, production companies and sponsors have invested 8-9 figures in the domestic professional game, and people like me have been spending my hard earned money trying to make it work. 

While the long term sustainability of the league will remain in question for at least a few years down the road, and the short term sustainability of a few clubs are in question today, I just do not see any reason to kill the investment that has been put into the game by people who even a decade ago had zero interest in doing so. Yes, the Fath's gave up in year 11. But to me they were a great example of the type of ownership that was around in this country at this level prior to the CPL; a group putting as little effort into the product as possible and then quitting when people didn't magically show up. Thankfully there are groups with some actual business sense (The Southerns, Bob Young, Dean Shillington, Atletico Ottawa, SEA) who are willing to put out a professional product out there that is far superior to that garbage the Fath's did.   

The whole point of this league was to provide additional professional playing opportunities for Canadian players who didn't have that opportunity abroad or with the MLS clubs, with hopefully the cream of the crop moving on to better opportunities, rather than quitting the game in their early 20's. 4 years in and I think that aspect is a resounding success, no?

[Bison44]

Funny how the guy who posts twice as much as anyone else in here has decided there is nothing intelligent being said and its not worthwhile anymore.  

I did hear a good one though...you cant get into a TFC2 NExtPro game unless you are a relative of the players.  Just to throw it out there that there are plenty of business models and expectations for attendance eh?  And lets recap,  certain people like to look at the mundane realities....so lets do that.  The product on the field was better year one than most of us thought and is improving every year....we have beaten MLS and our champ has done well against foreign foes.  We have gotten CPL grads moved on to higher leagues and we are at the cusp of seeing (Waterman) a CPL grad really break into the CMNT conversation.  Forge was within a whisker of winning the V-CUP (sorry Gator).  We are slowly getting more and more corp sponserships, Pac/Cav has invested a lot of renos to make their fields better.  And we have at least 2 pretty serious expansion groups percolating.  And underneath the BC league is going, L1O and Quebec league are pumping out players.

Problems, sure...a team in real distress..yes.  Attendance isnt up to expectations league wide.   But I am glad that most of us our still thinking about how to get more asses in seats, bring more attention/money to the league, how to build on whats been done in the last 5-6 years.  Kudos to everyone thats gone to a game, bought the merch, subscribed to onesoccer etc etc..now isnt the time to throw in the towel and become a regional farm team bus league.  

[phil03]

10 hours ago, shermanator said:

Casual reminder that Ozzie has been trying to kill the idea of a Canadian domestic league for years, while CPL ownership groups, production companies and sponsors have invested 8-9 figures in the domestic professional game, and people like me have been spending my hard earned money trying to make it work. 

While the long term sustainability of the league will remain in question for at least a few years down the road, and the short term sustainability of a few clubs are in question today, I just do not see any reason to kill the investment that has been put into the game by people who even a decade ago had zero interest in doing so. Yes, the Fath's gave up in year 11. But to me they were a great example of the type of ownership that was around in this country at this level prior to the CPL; a group putting as little effort into the product as possible and then quitting when people didn't magically show up. Thankfully there are groups with some actual business sense (The Southerns, Bob Young, Dean Shillington, Atletico Ottawa, SEA) who are willing to put out a professional product out there that is far superior to that garbage the Fath's did.   

The whole point of this league was to provide additional professional playing opportunities for Canadian players who didn't have that opportunity abroad or with the MLS clubs, with hopefully the cream of the crop moving on to better opportunities, rather than quitting the game in their early 20's. 4 years in and I think that aspect is a resounding success, no?

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing with the success on the pitch. The thing that is more in question is economic viability and how the league interact with the deal with CSB for national teams (but that's better kept to other threads).

To me the two teams that really provide a model of sustainabiliity are Halifax and Ottawa. Halifax because the team is in a market that is smaller, sure, but where the CPL is gonna be the sporting show in town during the summer so they'll have a far easier time attracting people and Ottawa because Athletico Madrid sees them as their eyes and ears in Canada so they have at least some tolerance to loosing cash there.

IMO that and the good old rich person seeing it as their hobbie and being ok loosing cash on it in sizable chunk is where the CPL needs to go in the mid to long run to workout financially.

[Kent]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:37 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Or they could downscale a bit and find a business model that operates comfortably on the 2500 or so paid they are actually attracting that revolves mainly around regional bus travel and developing U-23 players.

How is your vision different from PLSQ, L1O, and L1BC, which are in their 11th, 8th (not counting the cancelled 2020 season), and 1st seasons respectively?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Have I not already made it clear that the ECHL in hockey would be the parallel?

Young players trying poorly paid but fully pro in its approach soccer in a regional bus travel league for a couple of years to see if they are the next Farsi, MacNaughton, Chung or Waterman. Would prefer CanPL to be like Serie A or the Bundesliga so this isn't about what I actually want but about having something that doesn't go tits up if/when the investors get to the Fath brothers stage of their involvement. Check out the crowd in the Valour highlights from yesterday for why there are grounds for concern.

CanPL has already downscaled to the point that it isn't actually drastically far off this sort of model already in many respects. Add four to six more teams after easing up a bit on stadium requirements and getting out of the CFL stadia, scale back on the Billy Beane stuff with the low quality imports through the agency and have eastern/western conferences to limit air travel and the adjustment could be a relatively smooth one.

[SpursFlu]

Watching the Ottawa Pacific highlites and it looked like a great crowd out for that one. Great work Ottawa 

[Kingston]

23 hours ago, narduch said:

All this a day after one CPL squad just hosted a match with over 13,000 people.

Getting back on to the topic of CPL attendance, how do people feel about the attendance of 13 715 for the 2020 Canadian Championship final?

Most of me is delighted.  This is a great crowd.  It is the second largest ever for a CPL club behind the league's first ever game.  It's also the largest "legitimate" crowd in that tickets were free for that first ever game.  

A small part of me is slightly disappointed that it wasn't even bigger.  A Canadian Championship final against the nearest other pro team on a beautiful day with two years' lead time and no sell out?

But, overall, well done!

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Have I not already made it clear that the ECHL in hockey would be the parallel?

Young players trying poorly paid but fully pro in its approach soccer in a regional bus travel league for a couple of years to see if they are the next Farsi, MacNaughton, Chung or Waterman. Would prefer CanPL to be like Serie A or the Bundesliga so this isn't about what I actually want but about having something that doesn't go tits up if/when the investors get to the Fath brothers stage of their involvement. Check out the crowd in the Valour highlights from yesterday for why there are grounds for concern.

CanPL has already downscaled to the point that it isn't actually drastically far off this sort of model already in many respects. Add four to six more teams after easing up a bit on stadium requirements and getting out of the CFL stadia, scale back on the Billy Beane stuff with the low quality imports through the agency and have eastern/western conferences to limit air travel and the adjustment could be a relatively smooth one.

I guess my issue is that I don't know anything about the ECHL, so that wasn't really working as a helpful description to me. I just googled it, I don't know if they have any/many games outside of their divisions, but it looks like it's becoming spread pretty wide in the USA, so if there is play outside of division it's probably not bus travel exclusively.

I guess my point with the L1O, PLSQ, and L1BC is that those are bus travel leagues with a U23 focus. Not professional, but that isn't realistic for them with their attendance at this point.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Getting back on to the topic of CPL attendance, how do people feel about the attendance of 13 715 for the 2020 Canadian Championship final?

Most of me is delighted.  This is a great crowd.  It is the second largest ever for a CPL club behind the league's first ever game.  It's also the largest "legitimate" crowd in that tickets were free for that first ever game.  

A small part of me is slightly disappointed that it wasn't even bigger.  A Canadian Championship final against the nearest other pro team on a beautiful day with two years' lead time and no sell out?

But, overall, well done!

I think it's a very good crowd. Although it was a Canadian Championship final, many would also consider it a glorified friendly, with no Champions League qualification coming out of it, and it lacked a tournament lead up to the final as well.

The 2021 final (was it COVID restricted?) drew 12,000 last year in Montreal according to Wikipedia. The 2019 final drew 10k in the first leg in Montreal, and 21k in the second leg in Toronto.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I guess my issue is that I don't know anything about the ECHL, ...

I'm sure you will have watched Slapshot at some point.

https://legacy.dkpittsburghsports.com/2019/03/18/nailers-echl-bus-travel-tlh/

...Japanese forward Yushiroh Hirano is in his first ECHL season, and has dreams of playing in the NHL and growing the game of hockey in Japan. He gave up living in his home country, where he would surely be more comfortable and make decent money playing professionally, to play in the ECHL and sleep on the floor on a 14-hour ride to Jacksonville. Anything it takes to chase the dream of playing in the NHL...

Doing the D1 air travel thing while drawing minor league level crowds is not what happens in the less well supported pro leagues that hang around in a North American context.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Cicero]

Had no idea Brampton had an ECHL team. Guess that didn't work out, like the Battalion. It's a nice facility, but Peel Region just doesn't seem to support local teams. Anyhow, the only thing I'd say is that they play 2.5x the number of road games, so that makes it even more onerous. I guess they have 2.5x the home games to make the revenue, but I suspect their average ticket price is lower than CPL, given how many games they play.

Scaling down does have some logic to it, but I would guess that the route to a long-term successful D1 model is to go even further than the owners already have, i.e. build proper stadia in good locations, get on more accessible tv broadcasts, and advertise the hell out of it. Not sure the money is there for that to happen. Instead of hundreds of thousands of losses each year, it would be several million for each team for a number of years. Haven't actually worked out any realistic numbers, but that would be my guess. Do junior hockey teams ever fly? I have no idea how the CHL operates. Do big teams like Kitchener and London subsidize small town teams?

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I'm sure you will have watched Slapshot at some point.

This is one of my more shameful blind spots. I have only seen a small portion of it on TV a couple decades ago. I should really hunt it down.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

I have no idea how the CHL operates. Do big teams like Kitchener and London subsidize small town teams?

Most CHL teams lose money.  A few years ago a whole bunch of financial information was released related to a law suit.  You can probably still find it on line.

One of their biggest costs is actually the legacy education for players.  Skipping some details, the teams fund one year of post secondary education for each year a player plays for the team.  So there aren't wages, as such, but this is a big cost.

The big teams do not subsidize the small teams.

I suspect many are operated as a community service/tax write off by local, wealthy owners.  Here in Kingston, in addition to being wealthy, the owners also own some hotels.  Perhaps hockey-related hotel stays and restaurant meals help offset losses on the hockey side.

[shermanator]

The league's website has all attendances for week 9 on their match reports. Attendances are as follows:

• FC Edmonton vs Forge - 897
• Valour vs Atletico Ottawa - 2699
• HFX Wanderers vs York United - 6224
• Atletico Ottawa vs Pacific - 4176
• Valour vs FC Edmonton - 2727

Attendance change compared to last year is as follows:

• Atletico Ottawa +2%
• Cavalry +41%
• Edmonton -9%
• Forge +8%
• HFX Wanderers +13%
• Pacific +17%
• Valour +5%
• York +11%
• CPL +4% 

[BigBadBorto]

Those attendance comparisons to last year look very promising.. all but 1 team are improving.   Is it comparing this YTD average to last YTD average or to last year total average?  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

20 hours ago, Cicero said:

...Do junior hockey teams ever fly? I have no idea how the CHL operates...

My understanding is that even the WHL that stretches from Winnipeg to Victoria is bus trips only.