Tom Holmes

[Sal333]

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

So you need to have Canadian nationality before any consideration of grandparents (or any other method of eligibilty) come into play in FIFA terms. 

"Grandmother" and "grandfather" are only mentioned in sections 6 and 7 (once each) which have to be read after section 5. 

As said above there are really two parts of eligiblity, nationality from the country and then FIFA's rules.   Holmes would need to get Canadian nationality somehow.

 

What? I'm lost. If you have Canadian nationality who cares about your grandparents?

[spitfire]

no worth getting involved…

Edited March 19, 2022 by spitfire

[Sal333]

13 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

What? I'm lost. If you have Canadian nationality who cares about your grandparents?

Read the history of Canadian nationality law on Wikipedia and maybe there's a clue there somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Canadian_nationality_law#Canadian_citizens_and_Canadian_nationals,_1910–1947

 Canadian citizenship only came into effect in 1947. Before that all Canadians were British subjects. Holmes' and the Swedish player's grandparents were probably born before 1947. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia explaining it.

"...Although the terms "Canadian citizen" and indeed "Canadian citizenship" were used in this Act (THE IMMIGRATION ACT OF 1910), they did not create the legal status of Canadian citizen in a nationality sense. People who had the status of "Canadian citizen" were merely free from immigration controls...."

The full Canadian citizen status only came into effect after the Canadian Citizenship Act of 1946.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Sal333

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 minutes ago, PrairieOwl said:

Once again, what is nationality? It is not citizenship. Otherwise, how does ugbo have nationality? Fifa nationality is “eligibility to participate for representative teams.” You can check page 9 of this commentary that they posted.

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/ccab990abf45fcf6/original/ro8mje8vw98yp3rvfbmi-pdf.pdf

Page 10 of that says 

"7. In this respect, FIFA competition regulations consistently state that proof of “nationality” is only provided through the holding of a “permanent international passport”."

Can you hold a passport and not be a citizen in Canada?  - A question for those more qualified  - I know you can some places.

 

 

Are you sure Ugbo is not a citizen? I don't know his situation but these do not seem outside the realm of possiblity. 

" You’re likely a Canadian citizen if you 
....
- received Canadian citizenship as a minor when a parent or legal guardian applied for your citizenship
- were born outside Canada and at least 1 of your parents (legal parent at birth [opens in a new tab] or biological parent) either was born in Canada, or became a naturalized citizen before you were born."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility/already-citizen.html

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, PrairieOwl said:

Yes. And 7(1)(c) should allow solholm or Holmes represent Canada. No?

It wouldn’t appear that Solholm’s grandparents were born in Canada. 
 

Similar to the situation with Matteo Bunbury. His dad is Canadian but wasn’t born in Canada so he’s not eligible. 

[El Diego]

I'll likely look into this more later, but for now I'll say that the section 5 and 7 requirements must be different, and fulfilling one doesn't necessarily mean you fulfill the other in FIFA's eyes -- else why make them separate?

[PrairieOwl]

43 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Page 10 of that says 

"7. In this respect, FIFA competition regulations consistently state that proof of “nationality” is only provided through the holding of a “permanent international passport”."

Yeah, I think you’re right. He probably needs to be able to obtain a Canadian passport.

Another opinion for those interested in further reading. You can register for free.

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/switching-nations-why-fifa-s-definition-of-nationality-is-causing-confusion

[El Diego]

3 minutes ago, PrairieOwl said:

Yeah, I think you’re right. He probably needs to be able to obtain a Canadian passport.

Another opinion for those interested in further reading. You can register for free.

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/switching-nations-why-fifa-s-definition-of-nationality-is-causing-confusion

Thanks for the link, I will try to register later today when I have more time.

I'll admit to being confused by these statutes. I read that passport line as well, and it seemed to make it clear that a passport is the only thing giving nationality... if that's the case, why go through that very conceptual explanation of nationality a page before and what may or may not constitute it? I don't know if it's actually confusing or if I am just out of practice.

[P-O]

I will keep it simple to explain this as I am the only one in my house with just 1 passport.

 

My wife is from Guatemala and my kids are born here. They have Canada/Guatemala passport. 

 

Let's say my son Santiago born in Canada (Canada/Guatemala) has a grandson.

1- Santiago' son will have made the passport for his son, therefore Eligible for Guatemala. If not, my wife IS born in Guatemala and has the nationality.

2- If Santiago's son didn't provide the Guatemala passport to his son, his son would be eligible because Santiago has the Guatemala Nationality even if he wasn't born there.

3- If the son of the son of Santiago was to apply to play football for Guatemala, he would be eligible even if the son of Santiago doesn't have the Guatemala passport AND wasn't born in Guatemala because Santiago HAS the nationality as a grandparent even if he wasn't born there.

4- But let's say we didn't get Santiago the Guatemala passport, his grandson wouldn't be Eligible for Guatemala because even if Santiago is from a Guatemala mother, he wasn't born there, nor hold the passport. Therefore his grandson would not be eligible for Guatemala.

I hope my dual kids will be good enough to select the country of their dad 🥰

Edited March 19, 2022 by P-O

[MtlMario]

5 minutes ago, P-O said:

I will keep it simple to explain this as I am the only one in my house with just 1 passport.

 

My wife is from Guatemala and my kids are born here. They have Canada/Guatemala passport. 

 

Let's say my son Santiago born in Canada (Canada/Guatemala) has a grandson. There are 2 things.

1- Santiago' son will have made the passport for his son, therefore Eligible for Guatemala. If not, my wife IS born in Guatemala and has the nationality.

2- If Santiago's son didn't provide the Guatemala passport to his son, his son would be eligible because Santiago has the Guatemala Nationality even if he wasn't born there.

3- If the son of the son of Santiago was to apply to play football for Guatemala, he would be eligible even if the son of Santiago doesn't have the Guatemala passport AND wasn't born in Guatemala because Santiago HAS the nationality as a grandparent even if he wasn't born there.

4- But let's say we didn't get Santiago the Guatemala passport, his grandson wouldn't be Eligible for Guatemala because even if Santiago is from a Guatemala mother, he wasn't born there, nor hold the passport. Therefore his grandson would not be eligible for Guatemala.

I hope my dual kids will be good enough to select the country of their dad 🥰

Does it matter what day of the week they are born?😀

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

11 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Thanks for the link, I will try to register later today when I have more time.

I'll admit to being confused by these statutes. I read that passport line as well, and it seemed to make it clear that a passport is the only thing giving nationality... if that's the case, why go through that very conceptual explanation of nationality a page before and what may or may not constitute it? I don't know if it's actually confusing or if I am just out of practice.

I guess allowing for those cases where you can hold a passport (ie. have nationality for their purposes) but not be a citizen.   

[CanadaFan123]

16 minutes ago, P-O said:

I will keep it simple to explain this as I am the only one in my house with just 1 passport.

 

My wife is from Guatemala and my kids are born here. They have Canada/Guatemala passport. 

 

Let's say my son Santiago born in Canada (Canada/Guatemala) has a grandson.

1- Santiago' son will have made the passport for his son, therefore Eligible for Guatemala. If not, my wife IS born in Guatemala and has the nationality.

2- If Santiago's son didn't provide the Guatemala passport to his son, his son would be eligible because Santiago has the Guatemala Nationality even if he wasn't born there.

3- If the son of the son of Santiago was to apply to play football for Guatemala, he would be eligible even if the son of Santiago doesn't have the Guatemala passport AND wasn't born in Guatemala because Santiago HAS the nationality as a grandparent even if he wasn't born there.

4- But let's say we didn't get Santiago the Guatemala passport, his grandson wouldn't be Eligible for Guatemala because even if Santiago is from a Guatemala mother, he wasn't born there, nor hold the passport. Therefore his grandson would not be eligible for Guatemala.

I hope my dual kids will be good enough to select the country of their dad 🥰

Geez, for keeping it simple you still found a way to mess it up! You took it a step too far.

Santiago's grandson would not be eligible for Guatemala. Santiago is born in Canada. Only Santiago's son would be eligible as his grandmother would have been born in Guatemala. 

From a FIFA standpoint your grandparent's nationality is irrelevant. The birth place is the relevant part.

[P-O]

Guess I shall delete my post then lol.

It was too simple to be true!

 

So basically the rich coming to give birth to Canada for their kids to be born here, even if he doesn't hold the passport but was born here would be eligible over a grandparent having the culture, the passport but nor the birthplace?

Wow

Edited March 19, 2022 by P-O

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

22 minutes ago, P-O said:

I will keep it simple to explain this as I am the only one in my house with just 1 passport.

 

My wife is from Guatemala and my kids are born here. They have Canada/Guatemala passport. 

 

Let's say my son Santiago born in Canada (Canada/Guatemala) has a grandson.

1- Santiago' son will have made the passport for his son, therefore Eligible for Guatemala. If not, my wife IS born in Guatemala and has the nationality.

2- If Santiago's son didn't provide the Guatemala passport to his son, his son would be eligible because Santiago has the Guatemala Nationality even if he wasn't born there.

3- If the son of the son of Santiago was to apply to play football for Guatemala, he would be eligible even if the son of Santiago doesn't have the Guatemala passport AND wasn't born in Guatemala because Santiago HAS the nationality as a grandparent even if he wasn't born there.

4- But let's say we didn't get Santiago the Guatemala passport, his grandson wouldn't be Eligible for Guatemala because even if Santiago is from a Guatemala mother, he wasn't born there, nor hold the passport. Therefore his grandson would not be eligible for Guatemala.

I hope my dual kids will be good enough to select the country of their dad 🥰

I guess it also highlights that FIFA must abide by the fact that differents nations, countries, localities etc. hand out passports in different ways.  

[CanadaFan123]

2 minutes ago, P-O said:

Guess I shall delete my post then lol.

It was too simple to be true!

 

So basically the rich coming to give birth to Canada for their kids to be born here, even if he doesn't hold the passport but was born here would could over a grandparent having the culture, the passport but nor the birthplace?

Wow

I want to answer but I've read this a few times and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. 

Essentially, having a passport/nationality is irrelevant unless you meet one of FIFA's eligibility criteria.

So from a Canada perspective, I know at one point it was surmised that JDG2 had renounced his Canadian citizenship to be Dutch (not sure if that's true but let's pretend it is). JDG2 is no longer Canadian. Despite this, JDG2's grandson would be eligible to play for Canada as JDG2 was born in Canada.

Meanwhile, we have Alex Bunbury who is a Canadian and has a son name Mateo at SKC II. Mateo was born in Minnesota and probably could get Canadian citizenship and his child would be ineligible for Canada as Alex was not born in Canada.

There are other variables in each respective scenario to consider but just to illustrate the point of grandparent nationality vs. birth place.

[toontownman]

Have we not had duals in somewhat similar positions where they had to get a Canadian passport? If he is eligible and interested we will see him as part of the nation's league squad. That would likely give him enough time with some advocating/exemptions to expedite the process a bit quicker. 

Will keep spamming in the meantime. It's a long way to go to get to the 21 page mark when we find out he was never eligible.

[dyslexic nam]

My brain hurts. 

[Club Linesman]

Just give him a passport and tell him to suit up. Done.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Club Linesman said:

Just give him a passport and tell him to suit up. Done.

We really should try to install a Voyageur in the upper echelons of Citizenship and Immigration Canada.  Would help expedite some of these discussions.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[costarg]

7 hours ago, MtlMario said:

Does it matter what day of the week they are born?😀

Only if the grandparents license plate ended with an even number.

[lowlander]

17 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:I know at one point it was surmised that JDG2 had renounced his Canadian citizenship to be Dutch (not sure if that's true but let's pretend it is). 

At the time, the Netherlands required people to give up their other passport(s) to get a Dutch passport, so seems likely. Now back to the discussion.

[finchster]

Citizenship and passing FIFA requirements are necessary to represent a nation.

 

If Canada gave a person citizenship and the player didn't pass FIFA requirements, they wouldn't be allowed to play. It stops nations from paying people to take their nationally to represent a country. 

 

Conversely, if someone passes one of the FIFA requirements but isn't a citizen, they cannot play. You need to be a citizen to play. We all know that countries will give people citizenship if it is in their sporting interest- this happens in every country.

 

If someone has a Canadian grandparent, it doesn't mean they can play for us- they still have to get citizenship first.

 

If Tom Holmes can play for us I would be happy, 22 year old starting CB at a decent level. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by finchster

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

11 minutes ago, finchster said:

Citizenship and passing FIFA requirements are necessary to represent a nation.

No.

A passport of that country and passing FIFA requirements are necessary to represent a nation.

It just so happens that we are not Suriname and we don't give out "Sports Passports" to non-citizens. So in the case if Canada, you are correct.

[Shway]

no update on him and his eligibility yet huh...

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On 4/9/2022 at 3:09 PM, Shway said:

no update on him and his eligibility yet huh...

Still no update but he has been out sick with something mysterious.

https://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reading-paul-ince-tom-holmes-23768937.amp