Tom Holmes

[Shway]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

So you rate Kennedy at 26 who plays 2nd division in Germany, but don't rate a 21 yr old playing championship as a starter?  Something doesn't add up bro.  

Holy sheit, why you aging the kid lol.
Kennedy is 24, and Tom Holmes is 22!

Kennedy may not be in the 2Bliga much longer, and let's see where Tom Holmes ends up after his contract is up.

Also a thought, between Germanys two leagues, there is 36 teams. Englands has 44. 
The championship is a good league, but like MLS it's oversaturated. 

[Free kick]

56 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Did you not just emphatically call it and all 2nd division leagues "overrated"?  Fine, maybe hate isn't the word to use but what I was suggesting is that a lot of people are refusing to give the league any credit. 

And it seems like an ironic statement given we had 5 players on our last 23 man roster that play in 2nd division or lower across Europe.  Two from the Championship, which are integral to our team (Laryea & Hoilett). Two others that have contributed well to our World Cup Qualification campaign (Kennedy & Fraser). Both Sturing & Brym have contributed to our Qualifying campaign as well and also play in a much lower level than the League Championship.

Its a second division.  Thats the main thing we need to remember.   There is a common denominator or characteristic to the play and game that is played in second divison irrespective of the country.

in the entire life of this forum (20 years) for the first seven years of it we were in the following state:

1) we had a national team that couldnt score goals and therefore couldnt get out of the Concacaf semi final round.  Regardless of who was in our group.

2) We had no pro clubs nor pro league.  Hence there was nowhere for our talent to go other than overseas. Our pool was shallow. 

I could understand why any opportunity or anybody just playing  somewhere overseas was better then nothing.  Including ins econd divsions.  But even then, i knew that where your players played professionally told you something about the quality of your national team.  I dont think there is any secret here, everybody should know can infer soemthing about your MNT quality from the level of proefessionalism our players play in.  
 

Today:

1) we are undefeated in the Hex with no losses.  We mastered Mexico and the US.  Nobody has ever done this before.  We mastered teams that are ranked in the top 20 in the world.  And Mexico is defintely a top 10-12 judging from their WC results for the past 30 years.

2) We now have three teams playing in front of 20k+ fans per game on average.  With well funded stable ownerships. And, where our players can measure up and face the same kind of talent or similar that they Face in concacaf.  
 

Good national teams dont go fishing to second divsions for talent to fill out their squad.    We are now approaching a ranking inside the top 30 in the world.   Are we a good team or not?  Do we believe we are a good team or not?  So why do we keep pinning and looking at sec div players as the answer to anything?   We could be pot 3 at the WC draw with Serbia.  Does The serbian manager or even Gareth Southgate have any reason to look at those levels to construct their depth chart?  Why do we keep believing we are poor team. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Corazon]

6 minutes ago, Free kick said:

  We could be pot 3 at the WC draw with Serbia.  Why do we keep believing we are poor team. 

So i still dont understand why we keep pinning for 

 

Is this the same Serbia team in which their all time international scorer currently plays in the League Championship (2nd Division)?  Who by the way has 44 international goals by the age of 27.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Corazon

[Obinna]

31 minutes ago, frmr said:

Laryea can hardly sniff the bench of a Championship side and he's one of our more important players. Hoilett has been in the Championship for ages, during the time when he was one of our most important players. Corbeanu is knocking on the door while playing a step below Championship. This player would be a massive get and would possibly walk into our starting 11, if not be very close to doing so. Would Millar, Vitoria and Kennedy all walk into Championship starting 11's? I would highly doubt that.

People seem to be moving the goalposts for this player compared to players already in our system playing at the same or comparable levels.

You are right here, but I call this putting a premium on the players already in the group. Why? Because they know the system, tactics and are part of the culture! That stuff matters. If this were simply a matter of player quality on paper, I would agree that Holmes tops that list. You have to be pretty damn good (like UCL good) to go straight into our starting backline this late in the competition though, unless of course injuries and suspension leaves us short (reminder Vitoria is suspended against CR).

As excited as I am about him joining, I very much doubt he automatically comes in ahead of all these players on day 1, but I also see no reason why he can't compete and challenge to take someone's spot, eventually.

Has anyone watched him play to give a scouting report? We must have someone here watching Hoilett and Reading regularly.

[Free kick]

https://www.transfermarkt.com/serbien/kader/verein/3438

https://www.national-football-teams.com/country/164/2022/Serbia.html

 

https://www.worldfootball.net/teams/serbien-team/wm-quali-europa-2021-2022/2/

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[frmr]

10 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Its a second division.  Thats the main thing we need to remember.   There is a common denominator or characteristic to the play and game that is played in second divison irrespective of the country.

in the entire life of this forum (20 years) for the first seven years of it we were in the following state:

1) we had a national team that couldnt score goals and therefore couldnt get out of the Concacaf semi final round.  Regardless of who was in our group.

2) We had no pro clubs nor pro league.  Hence there was nowhere for our talent to go other than overseas. Our pool was shallow. 

I could understand why any opportunity or anybody just playing  somewhere overseas was better then nothing.  Including ins econd divsions.  But even then, i knew that where your players played professionally told you something about the quality of your national team.  I dont think there is any secret here, everybody should know can infer soemthing about your MNT quality from the level of proefessionalism our players play in.  
 

Today:

1) we are undefeated in the Hex with no losses.  We mastered Mexico and the US.  Nobody has ever done this before.  We mastered teams that are ranked in the top 20 in the world.  And Mexico is defintely a top 10-12 judging from their WC results for the past 30 years.

2) We now have three teams playing in front of 20k+ fans per game on average.  With will funded stable ownerships. And, where our players can measure up and face the same kind of talent or similar that they Face in concacaf.  
 

Good national teams dont go fishing to second divsions for talent to fill out their squad.    We are now approaching a ranking inside the top 30 in the world.   Are we a good team or not?  Do we believe we are a good team or not?  So why do we keep pinning and looking at sec div players as the answer to anything?   We could be pot 3 at the WC draw with Serbia.  Does The serbian manager or even Gareth Southgate have any reason to look at those levels to construct their depth chart?  Why do we keep believing we are poor team. 

 

 

This is a really long post to simply say that second division players aren't good enough for Canada. Which is objectively untrue because we have multiple second division players playing for us, who have contributed to the success that you are now citing as the reason they are not good enough for us.

By this logic, if Fabio Carvalho was Canadian, he wouldn't be good enough for us because he plays for Fulham, despite the fact that he's off to Liverpool in the summer. Also, I guess we need to tell Kennedy, Hoilett, Jebbison and Corbeanu that, sorry, suddenly you're not good enough for us, because we're suddenly too good to play players below first division, despite the fact that this is completely arbitrary. What matters is the player's quality not the division they play in.

[Corazon]

3 minutes ago, Free kick said:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/serbien/kader/verein/3438

 

Okay good, you confirmed that he is on their roster.

Yep, there he is.  Playing in the League Championship with a higher "Market Value" than his team mates from Ajax, Espanyol, PAOK, Sassuolo, Hellas Verona, Benfica, Torino, Sevilla, Valencia, Porto, Getafe, Legia Warszawa, Fiorentina, Getafe again, Fiorentina again, Kasimpasa, FC Basel, Benfica again, Torino again & Reims.

[Free kick]

45 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Huh?! Laryea plays for the NT. Where does he play (or doesn't play) his club football today? Isn't it 2nd division.  Same with Hoilett. Same with Kennedy. We won't get into the discussion of where the MLS belongs in the world football hierarchy.

It was a move that was good for his pocketbook.   If you go to thread on this subject, there were no comments from me on his move.   I was not appauding it.

[Free kick]

13 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Okay good, you confirmed that he is on their roster.

Yep, there he is.  Playing in the League Championship with a higher "Market Value" than his team mates from Ajax, Espanyol, PAOK, Sassuolo, Hellas Verona, Benfica, Torino, Sevilla, Valencia, Porto, Getafe, Legia Warszawa, Fiorentina, Getafe again, Fiorentina again, Kasimpasa, FC Basel, Benfica again, Torino again & Reims.

Congratulations.  You found one player playing at Fullham amongst 40 or so players playing in first div.  I am sure it was his exploits at fulham that earned him his international stripes.  Do you you seriously believe that they will depend on him moreso that Vlahovic? 
 He was on the bench in their key qualifiers that they won versus Portugal.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Corazon]

29 minutes ago, Free kick said:

) we are undefeated in the Hex with no losses.  We mastered Mexico and the US.  Nobody has ever done this before.  We mastered teams that are ranked in the top 20 in the world.  And Mexico is defintely a top 10-12 judging from their WC results for the past 30 years.

We could be pot 3 at the WC draw with Serbia.  Does The serbian manager or even Gareth Southgate have any reason to look at those levels to construct their depth chart?  Why do we keep believing we are poor team. 

Nothing personal but your arguments seem flawed given our successful current team has quality players in 2nd divisions around Europe right now.

I already mentioned above that the Serbian Manager relies on his League Championship striker as one of their most important players.  So yes, even good teams like Serbia can dip into 2nd divisions.

You talk about mastering the US (a historically good program).  We beat them while they also played a player from the League Championship.  Not to mention the other 7 or 8 callups they've called in the past 12 months from 2nd divisions around Europe.

[Corazon]

7 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Congratulations.  You found one player playing at Fullham amongst 40 or so players playing in first div.  I am sure it was his exploits at fulham that earned him his international stripes.  Do you you seriously believe that they will depend on him moreso that Vlahovic?

You're all over the map at this point.  I'm not saying he is better than Vlahovic.  He is 27 years old with 44 goals for Serbia.  I don't know what to tell you if you think he is going away anytime soon.

By the way, he has been involved with the Serbian National Team for 8 years.  Four of those seasons, he was playing in the League Championship.  So yeah, he did earn those international stripes while playing in the League Championship.

Your arguments are flawed.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Corazon

[Free kick]

13 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Nothing personal but your arguments seem flawed given our successful current team has quality players in 2nd divisions around Europe right now.

I already mentioned above that the Serbian Manager relies on his League Championship striker as one of their most important players.  So yes, even good teams like Serbia can dip into 2nd divisions.

You talk about mastering the US (a historically good program).  We beat them while they also played a player from the League Championship.  Not to mention the other 7 or 8 callups they've called in the past 12 months from 2nd divisions around Europe.

Why doesnt England, Italy, Germany, France, Argentina, Spain, Brazil, Belgium, Mexico,  Holland, Switzerland, Colombia,  USA, etc etc ever select or call up players from Second divsions?  Or very very rarely (in one or two cases)?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Atlantic]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

Whay doesnt England, Italy, Germany, France, Argentina, Spain, Brazil, Belgium, Mexico,  Holland, Switzerland, Colombia,  USA, etc etc ever select or call up players from Second divsions?  Or very very rarely (in one or two cases)

We are nowhere near those teams in terms of depth 

[Nate3322]

You guys have talent for getting off topic

[Corazon]

21 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Whay doesnt England, Italy, Germany, France, Argentina, Spain, Brazil, Belgium, Mexico,  Holland, Switzerland, Colombia,  USA, etc etc ever select or call up players from Second divsions?  Or very very rarely (in one or two cases)

It seems pretty obvious, but its because all those countries have hundreds of players to choose from playing in top divisions in Europe and you can count ours on two hands.  

You could build international squads for those teams with just the top few teams in the big 5 leagues.

You keep mentioning USA as a team that doesn't call from lower divisions and yet they have a players currently playing in League Championship and as I mentioned they've called over half a dozen players playing at 2nd division or lower in Europe over the past 12 months.

Furthermore, it wasn't too long ago that Buendia was getting called up to Argentina after a stellar season in the League Championship.

Jefferson Lerma is an integral part to the Colombian National Program.  He currently plays in the League Championship.

Sandro Tonali was a highly rated Italian teenager who earned his first caps while playing for Brescia in Serie B.

Mexico just called up Canadian Flores who never even played professionally at that point and currently plays at the U23 level.  Not to mention, they too also occasionally call up 2nd division European players as well.

Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head with the countries you mentioned above.  But yes, historically all of those countries above have anywhere from dozens to hundreds of professional players playing at top levels in Europe which is why you rarely see 2nd division call ups for them.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Corazon

[Floortom]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

Whay doesnt England, Italy, Germany, France, Argentina, Spain, Brazil, Belgium, Mexico,  Holland, Switzerland, Colombia,  USA, etc etc ever select or call up players from Second divsions?  Or very very rarely (in one or two cases)

Not a good comparison.

First of all, many of those nations are several levels above Canada and there is absolutely no reason to compare ourselves to them.

For the ones that we are close too ( mexcio, US for example), their domestic leagues are really no better than than the Championship so the comparison doesnt hold. You think the guys from MLS squads are playing at a higher level than the Championship just because they're in a "first division"?

[Free kick]

9 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Not a good comparison.

First of all, many of those nations are several levels above Canada and there is absolutely no reason to compare ourselves to them.

For the ones that we are close too ( mexcio, US for example), their domestic leagues are really no better than than the Championship so the comparison doesnt hold. You think the guys from MLS squads are playing at a higher level than the Championship just because they're in a "first division"?

What you are essentially saying is:

Concacaf sucks.

MLS sucks. 
 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Floortom]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

What you are essentially saying is:

Concacaf sucks.

MLS sucks. 

No, I’m actually not. MLS is a good league with good players that can help our National team. Ditto the Championship. I really don’t care if one is “first division” and the other is “second division”.

i don’t think we should be trolling the Guatemalan pro league just because it’s “first division” and I certainly wouldn’t ignore players in the Championship because it’s “second division”.

this all seems pretty obvious tbh 

[RS]

1 hour ago, frmr said:

Would Millar, Vitoria and Kennedy all walk into Championship starting 11's? I would highly doubt that.

Kennedy starts for a midtable 2. Bundesliga side, so why wouldn't he be able to do the same in the Championship?

(Sorry for continuing this incredibly off-tangent discussion)

[dyslexic nam]

44 minutes ago, Free kick said:

What you are essentially saying is:

Concacaf sucks.

MLS sucks. 
 

Come on dude - this is borderline trolling. 

No one is saying MLS sucks.  In fact, insofar as a lot of people on here have said many times that some MLS teams might be on par with teams in the Championship, it seems like you may be the one saying that by bashing that level of play(see how easy it is to misrepresent things).

The reality is that they are both very respectable leagues.  CONCACAF is getting better, MLS is getting better, and the Championship has been, and will continue to be, a very respectable league that can produce international-calibre players for a country like Canada (even if that isn't generally true for top footy nations). 

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Floortom said:

You think the guys from MLS squads are playing at a higher level than the Championship just because they're in a "first division"?

Yes.  
21 of the 30 players called in this cycle are playing or have played in MLS, or have some playing time in MLS.  We are first in and undefeated in Concacaf.   
 

Prior to 2014 approximately, there were vitually none except Dero, as far as i recall.  Most of our callups came from overseas. Where a great part of squad was lower divisions.    Do we need to compare the results?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

Yes.

They are only playing at a "higher level" in the most technical sense that their league is D1 and the other is D2.  But that is a completely unimportant sense of the term in the discussion of who warrants an international call up.  Would we take someone from the Faroe Islands Premiere League over someone from the Championship just because of the D1/D2 distinction?  Because if not, the D1 designation is unimportant and really it is about the quality of play that they encounter during their season. 

[costarg]

This has become a Championship vs B2/MLS discussion.  

To those here that believe CANMNT is too good for a 22 year old CB with 70+ matches in Championship... you need a shot of reality pronto!  I guess you'll also be disappointed when CANMNT loses to France, England and Brazil at the World Cup.   

[Kadenge]

So is Tom Holmes eligible to play for Canada?....it's quite elementary don't you think?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Kadenge

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

So is Tom Holmes eligible to play for Canada?....it's  elementary don't you think?

We probably get this up to 20 pages before its confirmed