Tom Holmes

[SpursFlu]

All this talk and not one mention of the amazing name. I'm not sure if he's any good at football but he definitely sounds like he could help you renovate your washroom 

[Corazon]

52 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Wheeler once again doubling down that Grandparents mean no eligibility with regards to Holmes and Sondre.

I stepped aside for a bit during the broadcast but I did notice a follow up question or two that I did not here the panel address.  Again, maybe I missed it when I stepped aside for a short period.

The question was, "Then can someone explain how Jamaica is able to recruit players with grandparents born in Jamaica?"

Perhaps the 10 to 20 English born Jamaican players over the past year or so all have a parent born in Jamaica but it seems far more likely that some of these are tied through grandparents.

I am curious to know why Wheeler is so adamant that a grandparent does not qualify you but it seems like other countries in CONCACAF are doing it.  Are we going to assume that every foreign born Jamaican, Haitian, Curacao, etc. has a parent born in those countries and none are tied to grandparents?

Edited March 18, 2022 by Corazon

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Corazon said:

I stepped aside for a bit during the broadcast but I did notice a follow up question or two that I did not here the panel address.  Again, maybe I missed it when I stepped aside for a short period.

The question was, "Then can someone explain how Jamaica is able to recruit players with grandparents born in Jamaica?"

Perhaps the 10 to 20 English born Jamaican players over the past year or so all have a parent born in Jamaica but it seems far more likely that some of these are tied through grandparents.

I am curious to know why Wheeler is so adamant that a grandparent does not qualify you but it seems like other countries in CONCACAF are doing it.  Are we going to assume that every foreign born Jamaican, Haitian, Curacao, etc. has a parent born in those countries and none are tied to grandparents?

I think his point was that a grandparent alone doesn't qualify you to play for a country, which is true because first you need documentation and then you need to get a passport and citizenship. Having a grandparent allows you to open the door, but you have to be able to satisfy the paperwork.

[trc2014]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think his point was that a grandparent alone doesn't qualify you to play for a country, which is true because first you need documentation and then you need to get a passport and citizenship. Having a grandparent allows you to open the door, but you have to be able to satisfy the paperwork.

He didn’t answer the question that way unfortunately.  He completely dismissed it and said “be happy with the current roster okay!”  Hey Gareth, tell me the CBs that are going to be at the 2026 WC?  All of them better than Holmes?

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

He didn’t answer the question that way unfortunately.  He completely dismissed it and said “be happy with the current roster okay!”  Hey Gareth, tell me the CBs that are going to be at the 2026 WC?  All of them better than Holmes?

For sure. I think his response was ultimately colored by his annoyance of fans wanting new blood to begin with. His issue seems to be that we don't focus enough on the guys who've moved mountains to get Canada to the top. I think he thinks that is disrespectful and unappreciative of what the current group has done.

I don't think that's it at all though, I think that people just get excited at the prospect of strengthening. It's more of that and less of not liking or appreciating our current squad. The prospect of getting stronger with recruits will always be enticing for Canadian fans, I believe. We are not Brazil.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Obinna

[Bertuzzi44]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

All this talk and not one mention of the amazing name. I'm not sure if he's any good at football but he definitely sounds like he could help you renovate your washroom 

I thought you were gonna say if anyone could solve the mystery of his eligibility it would be Holmes!  

[trc2014]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

For sure. I think his response was ultimately colored by his annoyance of fans wanting new blood to begin with. His issue seems to be that we don't focus enough on the guys who've moved mountains to get Canada to the top. I think he thinks that is disrespectful and unappreciative of what the current group has done.

I don't think that's it at all though, I think that people just get excited at the prospect of strengthening. It's more of that and less of not liking or appreciating our current squad. The prospect of getting stronger with recruits will always be enticing for Canadian fans, I believe. We are not Brazil.

He is seems to not want people to have fun with determining whether or not players are eligible, then spends 24 hours hinting at which player was joining that ultimately became Ugbo.  The hypocrisy is hilarious.

[Corazon]

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

For sure. I think his response was ultimately colored by his annoyance of fans wanting new blood to begin with. His issue seems to be that we don't focus enough on the guys who've moved mountains to get Canada to the top. I think he thinks that is disrespectful and unappreciative of what the current group has done.

I don't think that's it at all though, I think that people just get excited at the prospect of strengthening. It's more of that and less of not liking or appreciating our current squad. The prospect of getting stronger with recruits will always be enticing for Canadian fans, I believe. We are not Brazil.

That is 100% not how he put it.  What is wrong with fans wanting our team to add depth for the future and to improve as a whole?  Wheeler is a professional and needs to handle certain questions and situations much better in my opinion.  

Personally, I know what your talking about how we should celebrate and appreciate what our core group has done and I want all of these players to be included for Qatar.  That includes players like Vitoria, Piette, Wotherspoon etc. that will potentially age out or fade out in the coming years.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Corazon

[El Diego]

Honestly it sounded like Gareth was mainly annoyed because he thinks fans are acting like they know more than him. He literally said at one point, derisively: "I talk to people". Like we get it, it was just a fan asking a question. Then Jenkins follows up with "There's a lot of people who want to be the first to have the big scoop on the next revelation on Canada Soccer." Meanwhile Charlie is laughing and face palming the whole time. It comes across as childish and unprofessional tbh, I don't know why they are so annoyed at a simple question... during a Q&A segment where they curate the questions!!! I know I'm getting a bit worked up over nothing really, but how quickly these OneSoccer guys act so high and mighty now that they've been working there for a little while.

The thing is, I actually agree with Gareth in general. The fact that some people think Canada Soccer may not be on guys like Tom Holmes (and even Justin Smith, which someone said in his thread) is a bit absurd. Like he pointed out, they got Ike Ugbo (and Frank Sturing) when no one was saying anything about them. But here is what he could have said:

"There is no indication that Tom Holmes is or can be eligible for Canada. I understand that in the past Canada Soccer was poor at identifying, let alone recruiting, dual internationals. Rest assured that those days are over, and if there is a player with any potential tenuous link to Canada then almost certainly Canada Soccer has investigated or is investigating it before any member of the public has discovered the link."

The other comments about being happy with what we've got is also just stupid. It's not a zero-sum game out here.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Corazon said:

That is 100% not how he put it.  What is wrong with wanting our team to add depth and to improve.  Wheeler is a professional and needs to handle certain questions and situations much better in my opinion.  

Personally, I love our current core group that has got us to this point and I want all of these players to be included for Qatar.  That includes players like Vitoria, Piette, Wotherspoon etc. that will potentially age out or fade out in the coming years.

I fully agree. He definitely did not put it that way at all. I firmly believe that's what's at the heart of his attitude though. 

His response to "What is wrong with wanting our team to add depth and improve" would probably be "Nothing! But when you focus more on that than the players in the squad, then I question how much you really appreciate what this group is doing".

Yes he can handle these things more gracefully, but this is what also makes Wheeler. I feel that asking him to be more graceful is akin to asking Craig Burley to be more graceful. He would just deflect it and shrug it off and possibly take a shot at you in the process. 

Wheelers not at that level yet, but he's getting closer to it by the day lol

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Honestly it sounded like Gareth was mainly annoyed because he thinks fans are acting like they know more than him. He literally said at one point, derisively: "I talk to people". Like we get it, it was just a fan asking a question. Then Jenkins follows up with "There's a lot of people who want to be the first to have the big scoop on the next revelation on Canada Soccer." Meanwhile Charlie is laughing and face palming the whole time. It comes across as childish and unprofessional tbh, I don't know why they are so annoyed at a simple question... during a Q&A segment where they curate the questions!!! I know I'm getting a bit worked up over nothing really, but how quickly these OneSoccer guys act so high and mighty now that they've been working there for a little while.

This is exactly why I said "Ivory tower". I got some big ego vibes from the panel today. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, VinceA said:

Wheeler once again doubling down that Grandparents mean no eligibility with regards to Holmes and Sondre.

I swear I have looked into this before and still don't have a definite answer and that is (probably) because it varies by country.

For instance Declan Rice was eligible for Ireland because of his paternal grandparents. 

Does it always have to be citizenship?

For instance, the UK citizen rules for me, not being a special footballer of course, was I could come as a Commonwealth citizen on an Ancestry Visa for 5 years (because of grandparents) but then had to live for 6 years (5 for Leave to Remain and then 12 months to apply) for citizenship. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[El Diego]

If Tom Holmes (or anyone, such as Sondre Solholm) 1. gets/has permanent Canadian nationality that is not dependent on residence then they can play for Canada 2. only if they fulfill one of a set criteria. Whether you already have that nationality or obtain it, one of the criteria is "His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association". Page 74 of the FIFA Statues: ggyamhxxv8jrdfbekrrm-pdf.pdf (fifa.com)

This is why people bring up the grandparent thing. It is not sufficient (or even necessary, as there are other criteria you can fulfill), but it allows you to clear that second step. The real problem for Holmes and Solholm is the first step, the permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence. I am guessing for Canada this means citizenship, but not sure.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

46 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am guessing for Canada this means citizenship, but not sure.

Speaking from personal and football knowledge only, not from an expertise, I would generally say that becoming a Canadian citizen via ancestry is harder than a number of places. 

Also "holding a passport" does not mean you have to be a citizen some places and does in Canada, I believe.

Edited March 18, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[PrairieOwl]

5 hours ago, El Diego said:

If Tom Holmes (or anyone, such as Sondre Solholm) 1. gets/has permanent Canadian nationality that is not dependent on residence then they can play for Canada 2. only if they fulfill one of a set criteria. Whether you already have that nationality or obtain it, one of the criteria is "His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association". Page 74 of the FIFA Statues: ggyamhxxv8jrdfbekrrm-pdf.pdf (fifa.com)

 

How does ugbo have nationality under your understanding of the rules? If you scroll down in that document you posted to article 7 on page 75, there are circumstances under which you can acquire a new nationality. Fifa nationality does not mean citizenship or residency. Tho both would qualify you for nationality.

You can read can read commentary on article 7 starting on page 23 here:

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/ccab990abf45fcf6/original/ro8mje8vw98yp3rvfbmi-pdf.pdf
 

You can also read through its commentary on nationality in article 5.

My understanding is that you can represent the country of your grandparent’s birth. 
 

In solholm’s case, I’m not sure why he is ineligible. If it’s a documentation issue, you would think those documents can be obtained. If he really is ineligible I suspect it is because his grandmother was born in the US. Solholm’s grandmother’s brother, the caf pilot, was born in California. So, it’s possible his grandmother was also born there. 

[dyslexic nam]

This interlude was brought to you by ancestry.ca 

[PrairieOwl]

Ha. Wikipedia, actually. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Carswell

[CanadaFan123]

12 hours ago, PrairieOwl said:

How does ugbo have nationality under your understanding of the rules? If you scroll down in that document you posted to article 7 on page 75, there are circumstances under which you can acquire a new nationality. Fifa nationality does not mean citizenship or residency. Tho both would qualify you for nationality.

You can read can read commentary on article 7 starting on page 23 here:

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/ccab990abf45fcf6/original/ro8mje8vw98yp3rvfbmi-pdf.pdf
 

You can also read through its commentary on nationality in article 5.

My understanding is that you can represent the country of your grandparent’s birth. 
 

In solholm’s case, I’m not sure why he is ineligible. If it’s a documentation issue, you would think those documents can be obtained. If he really is ineligible I suspect it is because his grandmother was born in the US. Solholm’s grandmother’s brother, the caf pilot, was born in California. So, it’s possible his grandmother was also born there. 

Ugbo lived in Canada for 4-5 years 

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/429b9c2aa699afdc/original/gv5axxtvu2aydszqfiw6-pdf.pdf

See Article 7(1)(d)

[PrairieOwl]

23 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Ugbo lived in Canada for 4-5 years 

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/429b9c2aa699afdc/original/gv5axxtvu2aydszqfiw6-pdf.pdf

See Article 7(1)(d)

Yes. And 7(1)(c) should allow solholm or Holmes represent Canada. No?

[Approve My Account Pls]

10 minutes ago, PrairieOwl said:

Yes. And 7(1)(c) should allow solholm or Holmes represent Canada. No?

That's what my interpretation is, and it doesn't seem like there's too many ways to read that clause otherwise. Completely spitballing here, but I wonder if with Solholm the issue was his grandparents were in fact Canadian but were not born in Canada (or lacked proof of being born in Canada). If Canada Soccer did in fact send a representative to Motherwell, it's clear they thought there might have been a chance. You wouldn't send someone if you knew it was impossible.

[Strait Red]

Holmes starts for Reading vs. Blackburn at 11 Eastern on DAZN 

[PrairieOwl]

13 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:Completely spitballing here, but I wonder if with Solholm the issue was his grandparents were in fact Canadian but were not born in Canada (or lacked proof of being born in Canada). If Canada Soccer did in fact send a representative to Motherwell, it's clear they thought there might have been a chance. You wouldn't send someone if you knew it was impossible.

If his grandmother was born in Canada, I believe next of kin can request a copy of her birth certificate. Maybe there’s another reason why documentation would be difficult to come by. Fifa also doesn’t like adoptions so if someone was adopted along the way then they won’t accept the filiation connection.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

40 minutes ago, PrairieOwl said:

Yes. And 7(1)(c) should allow solholm or Holmes represent Canada. No?

Watching some games and going through this again

 

TLDR - The grandparent thing does not matter if Holmes can't get Canadian nationality.

 

First I am going from the latest statutues - from May 2021 -  which include the changes happened in 2020 obviously.

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/7e791c0890282277/original/FIFA-Statutes-2021.pdf

 

 

Section 7 - "Acquisition of a new nationality" (and Section 6 - "Nationality entitling players to represent more than one association")  are dependent on section 5.  

At the beginning of Section 7 it says  - "Any player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 3...."

Section 5.1 says

"1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country."

What that means and how you can get it is obviously is defined by each individual country.

So you need to have Canadian nationality before any consideration of grandparents (or any other method of eligibilty) come into play in FIFA terms. 

"Grandmother" and "grandfather" are only mentioned in sections 6 and 7 (once each) which have to be read after section 5. 

As said above there are really two parts of eligiblity, nationality from the country and then FIFA's rules.   Holmes would need to get Canadian nationality somehow.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[PrairieOwl]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Watching some games and going through this again

 

TLDR - The grandparent thing does not matter if Holmes can't get Canadian nationality.

 

First I am going from the latest statutues - from May 2021 -  which include the changes happened in 2020 obviously.

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/7e791c0890282277/original/FIFA-Statutes-2021.pdf

 

 

Section 7 - "Acquisition of a new nationality" (and Section 6 - "Nationality entitling players to represent more than one
association")  are dependent on section 5.  

At the beginning of Section 7 it says  - "Any player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who
has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 3"

Section 5.1 says

"1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country."

What that means and how you can get it is obviously is defined by each individual country.

So you need to have Canadian nationality before any consideration of grandparents (or any other method of eligibilty) come into play in FIFA terms. 

"Grandmother" and "grandfather" are only mentioned in sections 6 and 7 (once each) which have to be read after section 5. 

As said above there are really two parts of eligiblity, nationality from the country and then FIFA's rules.   Holmes would need to get Canadian nationality somehow.

 

Once again, what is nationality? It is not citizenship. Otherwise, how does ugbo have nationality? Fifa nationality is “eligibility to participate for representative teams.” You can check page 9 of this commentary that they posted.

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/ccab990abf45fcf6/original/ro8mje8vw98yp3rvfbmi-pdf.pdf

[PrairieOwl]

Also if your grandparent was born in a country and you can prove a legitimate filiation. Then that nationality is permanent regardless of where you live.