Tom Holmes

[costarg]

15 minutes ago, Free kick said:

+1

its just mind boggling how much people over rate second divsion soccer.  There is a reason its called “second division” (or in this case, the Championship), its because its not the first division (or in this case, The premier league).  How many second division players play on national teams around the world?  And i mean here, good national teams, not bad national teams?  So if we believe, we have a good national team,  why do we believe a second div player is the answer?

We need to compare apples with apples.  Championship isn't USL.  Championship is the best 2nd division in the world.  Most Champ sides would beat a lot of teams just below the EU top 5 leagues.  

[Obinna]

23 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Up to a month ago, Cornelius wasnt playing, Vitoria is what 34??  Kennedy Johnston all just made the team in the last year or so.  You are making it sound like the lineup is set in stone.  WHen guys were calling for Kennedy to start 6-10 months ago, was that desperate?  He did fine. To say another 22 year old playing at a high level wouldnt be in the mix isnt crazy.  And if Ugbo can parachute in and get games right off the bat that sort of blows the "team chemistry" or Herdmans's pecking order theory doesnt it?? If you are good enough he'll throw you in..ie Kennedy, Johnston, Eustaquio etc.  Ugghhh, I honestly dont know why i got sucked into a hypothetical argument about a guy who wont be eligible anyways..ie Ethan Findley, Opare etc etc ad nauesem.  

Being in the mix to get minutes is different than being in the mix to start games, which you suggested. Maybe you were just being loose with your words there, since you are justifying your position on the matter with Ugbo, who hasn't actually started a game yet?

As for the rest of what you said, yeah I don't think it's crazy for him to be in the mix to get minutes. You should probably consider and appreciate where we are in the process as well. Kennedy, Johnston and Eustaquio all earned their keep at the beginning of the process, not towards the end of it. There's a big difference there you seem to be overlooking. 

[Free kick]

31 minutes ago, Atlantic said:

This isn’t the second division of Finland or Poland, it’s the best second-tier league in the world.

All this stuff is all anecdotal.   There is not a single quantifiable metric to support this.  Unlike, for example, the UEFA coeeficients.   English is the language we use so our source of info is primarily British,  i am not suprised that they advancing these notions about their game and their league.  Its in their interest  and pride to do so. Doesnt mean it true, although it may be.  None of us knows if its true nor is it provable how strong a second div in one country is in relation to another.     I can agree that yes its stronger or more competive that some scandinavian first divisions, but that doesnt make it great.

There is no and there has never been any European competition or tournamnents for second division clubs.  So none of us know really how strong it is in relation to Serie B to name just one example.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Obinna]

Just now, costarg said:

We need to compare apples with apples.  Championship isn't USL.  Championship is the best 2nd division in the world.  Most Champ sides would beat a lot of teams just below the EU top 5 leagues.  

Yes there is nuance on that particular part of it. Not all 2nd div leagues are the same, obviously. 

But there is no USL player here to consider, so why even mention that? If we want to judge players based on the league they play in (which can be misleading to begin with), we have to look at Greece div 1 (Cornelius), Championship (Holmes), 2. Bundesliga (Kennedy) and Major League Soccer (Henry), and in all honesty there is no big difference here to the point you can say Holmes should be automatically ahead of Cornelius and Henry. 

You could even do the same exercise with club and drill into it that way. I think the result would be the same. There's just not that big of a difference. If Holmes played 64 times for Liverpool over two seasons instead of Reading then yes you can say the strength of his resume is surely enough to suggest he'd be in contention for a start right away.

And even then it's not a guarantee because this isn't a video game and chemistry and continuity are important, especially in the back. 

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

So you rate Kennedy at 26 who plays 2nd division in Germany, but don't rate a 21 yr old playing championship as a starter?  Something doesn't add up bro.  

Kennedy is 24 (ok he will be 25 by end of month). Holmes is 22.

For all we know Reading will relegate and they will hang on to Holmes. Would we still be clamoring for a League One CB?

If Holmes is Canadian, I bet Herdman would blood him in the Ugbo way.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

1 hour ago, Atlantic said:

This isn’t the second division of Finland or Poland, it’s the best second-tier league in the world.

You've awoken @Unnamed Trialist !

-

On paper Holmes isn't necessarily a starter but surely in our 23-man roster.

Let's cool it until we get more information.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, Atlantic said:

This isn’t the second division of Finland or Poland, it’s the best second-tier league in the world. The championship has better quality than a lot of the first tiers in Europe. Plenty of championship players make World Cup rosters. I don’t think Holmes walks into our team but we were called Frank Sturing from the second division of the Netherlands, where he was basically playing for free. 

That was in the beginning round of qualifying. We are now approaching the end of the final round. The deeper we get into this and the closer we get to the World Cup the harder it will be to introduce new players, generally speaking.

But maybe Holmes is special. You would think it the way people are arguing for him. Or maybe we are still feeling desperate about our CB options? I have never seen him play so he could be a real stud, you never know. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

You've awoken @Unnamed Trialist !

-

On paper Holmes isn't necessarily a starter but surely in our 23-man roster.

Let's cool it until we get more information.

Okay so I wasn't the only one who thought of him lol

[narduch]

 

[Dominic94]

The question now, is he eligible ?

 

edit I mean willing, not getting enough sleep.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Dominic94

[Obinna]

Things can take us by surprise and come out of nowhere. I am not predicting it or anything, but that would be quite an exciting addition if he were in the upcoming roster. The more good players we have in the pool, the better. 

[Corazon]

A lot of hate on here for the League Championship.  First off, there are dozens of players that currently play international football from the League Championship.  Many of which play for good international countries as well.  There are also thousands of international caps in the League Championship.  I counted a couple hundred international caps on Fulham alone.

Second, Hoilett is integral to our program and is Holmes current teammate.  Junior also happens to be playing in his 7th League Championship season.  We have Laryea a regular for Canada that isn't even making the bench for a League Championship side (very unique and rare case in my opinion).

Third, many people here are calling for Jebbison to join our ranks who can barely even get a sniff in the League Championship right now.  In fact, we were calling him to join Canada while he was playing in League One.  In a position far deeper than CB.

We have Corbeanu playing in League One right now that has been involved in this cycle and already 6 Canadian caps to his name as well.

Holmes absolutely does not walk into our starting lineup given how well Vitoria and others have been during this cycle.  But he would absolutely walk into our program right now.  Would he be on the World Cup roster?  I don't know, it seems unlikely given Herdman has repeatedly gone with the players he's trusted and that have been involved in our program for years.  And I also don't think it will be a big loss if he isn't on that World Cup squad but long term he would be a great addition.  Let's not forget we were clamouring for Tomori when he was playing with Derby County in the League Championship (yes Chelsea owned and way more upside but just some further insight).

Edited March 16, 2022 by Corazon

[P-O]

Would Kamal Miller get into the Reading team?

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, Corazon said:

A lot of hate on here for the League Championship.  First off, there are dozens of players that currently play international football from the League Championship.  Many of which play for good international countries as well.  There are also thousands of international caps in the League Championship.  I counted a couple hundred international caps on Fulham alone.

Second, Hoilett is integral to our program and is Holmes current teammate.  Junior also happens to be playing in his 7th League Championship season.  We have Laryea a regular for Canada that isn't even making the bench for a League Championship side (very unique and rare case in my opinion).

Third, many people here are calling for Jebbison to join our ranks who can barely even get a sniff in the League Championship right now.  In fact, we were calling him to join Canada while he was playing in League One.  In a position far deeper than CB.

We have Corbeanu playing in League One right now that has been involved in this cycle and already 6 Canadian caps to his name as well.

Holmes absolutely does not walk into our starting lineup given how well Vitoria and others have been during this cycle.  But he would absolutely walk into our program right now.  Would he be on the World Cup roster?  I don't know, it seems unlikely given Herdman has repeatedly gone with the players he's trusted and that have been involved in our program for years.  And I also don't think it will be a big loss if he isn't on that World Cup squad but long term he would be a great addition.  Let's not forget we were clamouring for Tomori when he was playing with Derby County in the League Championship (yes Chelsea owned and way more upside but just some further insight).

I agree with the bolded part, that Holmes automatically gets considered for our program, but I personally don't have hate for the Championship nor do I see other posters hating on it. We all know it's a strong league with many international players (including our own). It's not a matter of hating that league, I think it's a matter of assuming players from that league are superior to players in MLS, or in the case of Cornelius the Greek Super League. The push back has more to do with that. 

[Free kick]

25 minutes ago, Corazon said:

A lot of hate on here for the League Championship. 

Where is the hate? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

41 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

You've awoken @Unnamed Trialist !

-

On paper Holmes isn't necessarily a starter but surely in our 23-man roster.

Let's cool it until we get more information.

To be fair all I've tried to do is offer a counterpoint to certain overhyping.

And if you look at previous posts, they mostly end by arguing the best 2nd tier in the world right now is probably Germany.

The jist is that if in England they have a 24-team 2nd tier, that makes 6 teams that would be in the German Third Bundesliga. Or, basically, a quarter of England 2nd tier wouldn't even be 2nd tier in Germany (18 teams). A game a month vs a team that wouldn't even be in the same tier in Germany. It has too many teams, too much scrub teams, an assinine schedule and, if you've watched, it shows.

I admit, sure, most 2nd tiers of top footballing nations are not very pretty.

Now I know this does not consider money paid to players, which is by far the highest in Championship amongst world 2nd tiers. League One is the best paid third tier, League 2 the best paid 4 tier. No question for career paths those lower leagues have to be enticing for a player seeking a nice contract. Thing is, part of that differential has to be considered overpayment, excess salary, not corresponding to real quality. Since 2nd tiers have greater predominance of the corresponding national player pool, in England those are English (British) players. And there is no evidence in the last 40 years of national football that the English player is better than the German, Italian or Spanish player. In fact it is quite the contrary.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, P-O said:

Would Kamal Miller get into the Reading team?

If by "team" you mean starting 11 I would say there are many factors to consider with that. Would he have a shot? I believe so. I wouldn't say it'd be a slam dunk guarantee though, because there are many considerations.

And I would say the same thing about Holmes getting into the CF Montreal team, just based on his resume.

That's no disrespect to Reading or the Championship. I would say the same if we were talking about a random player from 2.Bundesliga or the Greek top flight too.

If we were talking about a player from a top 5 team in a top 5 league playing regularly in Europa or Champions League, that's different. That's my perspective on it. I am not taking a shot at the Championship or Reading here. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

If by "team" you mean starting 11 I would say there are many factors to consider with that. Would he have a shot? I believe so. I wouldn't say it'd be a slam dunk guarantee though, because there are many considerations.

And I would say the same thing about Holmes getting into the CF Montreal team, just based on his resume.

That's no disrespect to Reading or the Championship. I would say the same if we were talking about a random player from 2.Bundesliga or the Greek top flight too.

If we were talking about a player from a top 5 team in a top 5 league playing regularly in Europa or Champions League, that's different. That's my perspective on it. I am not taking a shot at the Championship or Reading here. 

You have to admit, as I do, that the guy seems more interesting that a 26-year-old Norwegian playing in a mid-table Scottish team.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You have to admit, as I do, that the guy seems more interesting that a 26-year-old Norwegian playing in a mid-table Scottish team.

Absolutely. I do hope he's eligible. You don't play that many games in the Championship at that age without being a good player. He'll be able to help us I am sure.

[toontownman]

He just turned 22 and will soon have over 70 championship appearances. Whether the players around him in that back line help or hinder him or not, he is playing at a higher standard than the majority of our current backline including our MLS CB's, arguably higher than Kennedy whose team is also scarily close to getting relegated. Maybe we should not get excited about Scott anymore.

The fact promotion teams were bidding or him in January is a good sign as is his young age. He is clearly rated as someone on the lower premiership/upper championship level and maybe he has potential to go higher. Exceedingly young for a CB still but already one of the first names on the teamsheet.

To each their own, I get downplaying anyone thinking he would be an instant starter for us, he might well not be and that is a stretch, not least because 99% of the forum never heard of him before this week! I don't think adding him would be anything but a great potential get for the program in an area that has been our weakest depth wise. He would be a great compliment to the LCB that have emerged in Kennedy and Miller, with time to bed in under Vitoria,

[Corazon]

19 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Where is the hate? 

Did you not just emphatically call it and all 2nd division leagues "overrated"?  Fine, maybe hate isn't the word to use but what I was suggesting is that a lot of people are refusing to give the league any credit. 

And it seems like an ironic statement given we had 5 players on our last 23 man roster that play in 2nd division or lower across Europe.  Two from the Championship, which are integral to our team (Laryea & Hoilett). Two others that have contributed well to our World Cup Qualification campaign (Kennedy & Fraser). Both Sturing & Brym have contributed to our Qualifying campaign as well and also play in a much lower level than the League Championship.

[Atlantic]

Arguing aside, I think it shows how far we’ve come as footballing nation that there is back and forth discussion on where a championship CB would fit with our team. 6 years ago we would’ve hailed this guy as a god. 

[frmr]

Laryea can hardly sniff the bench of a Championship side and he's one of our more important players. Hoilett has been in the Championship for ages, during the time when he was one of our most important players. Corbeanu is knocking on the door while playing a step below Championship. This player would be a massive get and would possibly walk into our starting 11, if not be very close to doing so. Would Millar, Vitoria and Kennedy all walk into Championship starting 11's? I would highly doubt that.

People seem to be moving the goalposts for this player compared to players already in our system playing at the same or comparable levels.

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, Free kick said:

+1

its just mind boggling how much people over rate second divsion soccer.  There is a reason its called “second division” (or in this case, the Championship), its because its not the first division (or in this case, The premier league).  How many second division players play on national teams around the world?  And i mean here, good national teams, not bad national teams?  So if we believe, we have a good national team,  why do we believe a second div player is the answer?

Huh?! Laryea plays for the NT. Where does he play (or doesn't play) his club football today? Isn't it 2nd division.  Same with Hoilett. Same with Kennedy. We won't get into the discussion of where the MLS belongs in the world football hierarchy.

[Sal333]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

So you rate Kennedy at 26 who plays 2nd division in Germany, but don't rate a 21 yr old playing championship as a starter?  Something doesn't add up bro.  

24 not 26.