OneSoccer

[MtlMario]

My subscription just ended. Someone mentioned that if I re - start now it ends at the end of this year at the full price. Same if I start on Dec.30? Doesn't make sense. Someone please enlighten me.

[narduch]

47 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

My subscription just ended. Someone mentioned that if I re - start now it ends at the end of this year at the full price. Same if I start on Dec.30? Doesn't make sense. Someone please enlighten me.

There is really no point re subscribing. All they have is Lille games.

Unless you enjoy the Mexico and China league coverage.

[MtlMario]

It was more really for the Forge game vs TFC (whenever that will be) and its Concacaf games.

[narduch]

15 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

It was more really for the Forge game vs TFC (whenever that will be) and its Concacaf games.

We don't even know if that will be in 2020.

Its possible it might also be offered for free.  Or on CBC.

I would wait last second on that one

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by narduch

[m-g-williams]

Super busy with work, so I'll pop back later to comment/explain this in English. But this seems a weeeeeeeeee bit concerning. 

https://www.france24.com/fr/20201009-ligue-1-en-difficulté-mediapro-veut-renégocier-les-droits-tv?ref=tw_i

Edited October 9, 2020 by m-g-williams

[Ansem]

Found another link in English

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/french-football-league-stares-down-152833254.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABkCBZmZONN2_TzHTauUljrYdpC4FhjCQCmWBlQgT0gRFUU98MeNCneXBf3S9bhrPqnpJi2EXdUJ6ACvvfy5yInj4WoDJp6ajtRyZ5U0z-BlF8LUvET4Tx2WfpAKgzR4suXUigzI37HjpALpJT2lulQwATxgtF_B4VSXCdoiQ5dY

1. Mediapro is basically an agency. Their initial model was to buy the rights at a very high price and sell them at a profit, speculating on an increase in the market and competition in France. They bet, they lost, "notes Pierre Maes, consultant and author of the" Football TV rights business ", interviewed by AFP.

2. In 2018, Mediapro won the bulk of the rights to L1 and L2 for the period 2020-2024, for more than 800 million euros per year, outbidding the historic partner Canal +, Qatari beIN and the Altice group ( RMC Sport).

3. To be profitable, Téléfoot must have 3.5M subscribers at 30 € / month or 7M at 15 €. They now have about 278,000 subscribers

4. The French league refuses but the clubs are supposed to get paid by October 17 and over a third of their revenues are from those rights. (Clubs budgeted taking into account MediaPro TV payments - most likely spent more than they were used too in general)

5. The French League is now forced to seek a bank loan to pay the clubs on time

 

MediaPro has pretty much all the leverage here and they are exercising it fully.

• "On one hand you have someone who is threatening to not pay, on the other a league that has based its entire budget on the new rights. Inevitably these negotiations are going to be a bit fraught," football economist Luc Arrondel told AFP.
• "If the money does not arrive ... what is likely to happen is that the clubs will not be able to pay their players," added Arrondel, who believes Mediapro are in a "strong position" to negotiate.

 

But keep in mind though that COVID did hurt everyone - and they are using it that as justification also

Report: Ligue 1 Television Rights Holders Want To Renegotiate Contract With LFP

https://onefootball.com/en/news/report-ligue-1-television-rights-holders-want-to-renegotiate-contract-with-lfp-31332029

• “We want to discuss the contract again this season. She is very affected by COVID-19. Everyone knows it because everyone is suffering. We are not calling into question the project as such. But bars and restaurants are closed, advertising has collapsed … These are things that everyone knows,” Roures said.

 

Also, this might not be unique to LFP

Premier League clubs fear broadcasters will renegotiate rights deals when next season starts

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breaking-premier-league-broadcast-rights-18204870

Another thing to keep in mind business-wise. MediaPro might have liquidity issues but their Chinese owners don't from what I've read.

This is a fiasco on both sides as LFP should have seen the red flags from the Serie A deal and they were warned about the company's liquidity issues...
 

In regards to CanPL?

• I think they got the rights for peanuts and knew CPL would jump on it. (10 years / money including production value). They have been successful in reselling CPL Island games - which is the heart of their business model during COVID. I don't see a case to renegotiate with CSB

• I don't think they overvalued the Canadian market - they have circled 2026 in my opinion and seems willing to try to build their base towards 2026.

• This does raise questions about launching a Canadian Cable Channel - How would they make it work? I'm thinking getting the Canadian rights to MLS are key to the Canadian strategy banking on some of the 3 clubs fan base buying into their platform(s) while reselling those games to Canadian TV networks who could buy them "a la carte".

• Speaking of MLS - I still maintain that CanPL was the stepping stone to get into the North American market with the US being the ultimate prize long term. Another reason why I doubt they do this on this side of the border as it would damage their North American ambition which is viewed as the last football untapped market.

• There's a reason MLS is back tournament was set up and the league pushed through with their season. Their broadcasters could have easily pulled the same stunt. You got to think that TSN didn't pay a dime to CFL this year

Edited October 9, 2020 by Ansem

[Kent]

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

To be profitable, Téléfoot must have 3.5M subscribers at 30 € / month or 7M at 15 €. They now have about 278,000 subscribers

Are we to assume those 278k subscribers aren’t paying €378 per month to make it OK? 😆

[Unnamed Trialist]

If a league can change a deal to favour its financial interests, then why could not a rights holder do the same?

I am reminded that Mediapro lost the rights they'd legally won for Serie A, after an appeal for reasons of fair competition from Italian Sky. So they might have seen it is possible for a signed deal to be altered for various reasons.

What I find interesting is that perhaps they are learning that having teams playing before public, with full stadiums, actually makes the TV product more attractive. And draws subscribers. NBA ratings are poor this year, and probably have been hurt by being in the bubble. Watching Roland Garros these days--I also bet that is true there. 

So this suggests that the previously held idea that these revenue streams were mostly separate, gate and tv rights, is incorrect. Gate, ie paying fans, is part of the product tv viewers tune in for. Not having fans watching an event is a reason for disengagement of part of tv audiences. They bolster each other mutually.

[JamboAl]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If a league can change a deal to favour its financial interests, then why could not a rights holder do the same?

I am reminded that Mediapro lost the rights they'd legally won for Serie A, after an appeal for reasons of fair competition from Italian Sky. So they might have seen it is possible for a signed deal to be altered for various reasons.

What I find interesting is that perhaps they are learning that having teams playing before public, with full stadiums, actually makes the TV product more attractive. And draws subscribers. NBA ratings are poor this year, and probably have been hurt by being in the bubble. Watching Roland Garros these days--I also bet that is true there. 

So this suggests that the previously held idea that these revenue streams were mostly separate, gate and tv rights, is incorrect. Gate, ie paying fans, is part of the product tv viewers tune in for. Not having fans watching an event is a reason for disengagement of part of tv audiences. They bolster each other mutually.

I absolutely agree with the comments about ratings.  I have had little to no enthusiasm in watching any sport since March because there is no atmosphere.  In fact, except for the Bundesliga coming back last season, I’ve cancelled all my sports channels on TV.

[narduch]

Other than NFL with a slight dip, all the North America leagues are seeing steep ratings declines.

I agree that it really isn't the same without fans.

I actually don't mid when they add the fake fan noises. I got a good kick out of adding jeers to CL matches.

I try to watch TFC but its a chore 

[Cheeta]

Not the last few years (probably because i watch a fair bit less footie than I used to) but not so long ago I would watch a lot of matches with the broadcast muted, listening to tunes.  So the crowd aspect wasn't there.  Still don't think you can overstate the importance of a stadiums atmosphere as a production value though.

Prefer stadium sound only as opposed to the canned sound getting pumped into the broadcasts.  Think I'm in the minority in that.

 

[red card]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

Other than NFL with a slight dip, all the North America leagues are seeing steep ratings declines.

I agree that it really isn't the same without fans.

I actually don't mid when they add the fake fan noises. I got a good kick out of adding jeers to CL matches.

I try to watch TFC but its a chore 

Ratings are down not just because of little to no fans in the stadium/arena. It's probably a factor between 5-10. 

Ex NFL, they are playing outside of their calendar window. Some leagues/teams played matches outside of the local team markets. US election season usually means a dip in US sports viewing. Less getting together to watch which usually means the casual viewer isn't watching. Lots of different sports all at the same time. Some leagues had more games on tv which drops avg audience watching. More games on tv on weekday afternoons and commuting hours also drops avg viewing audience. People used their stimulus money to trade stocks when there was no sports and haven't fully returned to sports gambling.

[Watchmen]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, Ansem said:

Found another link in English

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/french-football-league-stares-down-152833254.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABkCBZmZONN2_TzHTauUljrYdpC4FhjCQCmWBlQgT0gRFUU98MeNCneXBf3S9bhrPqnpJi2EXdUJ6ACvvfy5yInj4WoDJp6ajtRyZ5U0z-BlF8LUvET4Tx2WfpAKgzR4suXUigzI37HjpALpJT2lulQwATxgtF_B4VSXCdoiQ5dY

1. Mediapro is basically an agency. Their initial model was to buy the rights at a very high price and sell them at a profit, speculating on an increase in the market and competition in France. They bet, they lost, "notes Pierre Maes, consultant and author of the" Football TV rights business ", interviewed by AFP.

2. In 2018, Mediapro won the bulk of the rights to L1 and L2 for the period 2020-2024, for more than 800 million euros per year, outbidding the historic partner Canal +, Qatari beIN and the Altice group ( RMC Sport).

3. To be profitable, Téléfoot must have 3.5M subscribers at 30 € / month or 7M at 15 €. They now have about 278,000 subscribers

4. The French league refuses but the clubs are supposed to get paid by October 17 and over a third of their revenues are from those rights. (Clubs budgeted taking into account MediaPro TV payments - most likely spent more than they were used too in general)

5. The French League is now forced to seek a bank loan to pay the clubs on time

 

MediaPro has pretty much all the leverage here and they are exercising it fully.

• "On one hand you have someone who is threatening to not pay, on the other a league that has based its entire budget on the new rights. Inevitably these negotiations are going to be a bit fraught," football economist Luc Arrondel told AFP.
• "If the money does not arrive ... what is likely to happen is that the clubs will not be able to pay their players," added Arrondel, who believes Mediapro are in a "strong position" to negotiate.

 

But keep in mind though that COVID did hurt everyone - and they are using it that as justification also

Report: Ligue 1 Television Rights Holders Want To Renegotiate Contract With LFP

https://onefootball.com/en/news/report-ligue-1-television-rights-holders-want-to-renegotiate-contract-with-lfp-31332029

• “We want to discuss the contract again this season. She is very affected by COVID-19. Everyone knows it because everyone is suffering. We are not calling into question the project as such. But bars and restaurants are closed, advertising has collapsed … These are things that everyone knows,” Roures said.

 

Also, this might not be unique to LFP

Premier League clubs fear broadcasters will renegotiate rights deals when next season starts

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breaking-premier-league-broadcast-rights-18204870

Another thing to keep in mind business-wise. MediaPro might have liquidity issues but their Chinese owners don't from what I've read.

This is a fiasco on both sides as LFP should have seen the red flags from the Serie A deal and they were warned about the company's liquidity issues...
 

In regards to CanPL?

• I think they got the rights for peanuts and knew CPL would jump on it. (10 years / money including production value). They have been successful in reselling CPL Island games - which is the heart of their business model during COVID. I don't see a case to renegotiate with CSB

• I don't think they overvalued the Canadian market - they have circled 2026 in my opinion and seems willing to try to build their base towards 2026.

• This does raise questions about launching a Canadian Cable Channel - How would they make it work? I'm thinking getting the Canadian rights to MLS are key to the Canadian strategy banking on some of the 3 clubs fan base buying into their platform(s) while reselling those games to Canadian TV networks who could buy them "a la carte".

• Speaking of MLS - I still maintain that CanPL was the stepping stone to get into the North American market with the US being the ultimate prize long term. Another reason why I doubt they do this on this side of the border as it would damage their North American ambition which is viewed as the last football untapped market.

• There's a reason MLS is back tournament was set up and the league pushed through with their season. Their broadcasters could have easily pulled the same stunt. You got to think that TSN didn't pay a dime to CFL this year

Just so I've got this straight: MediaPro gambled on the French Ligue 1 rights, is losing heavily, is using Covid as a reason to back out of the deal they negotiated and squeezing League 1 like crazy with threats not to pay at all, and your reaction is "This is a company MLS would love to do business with."?  That sounds more like a partner I wouldn't trust at all.  If you needed 3.5-7 million subscribers and you're at 278k, then covid is irrelevant to the deal except as a convenient excuse to "renegotiate".  Ligue 1 might have to take a lesser deal, but you better believe they aren't going to forget how MediaPro treated them either.

Further: I wouldn't count on Chinese investment to bail out MediaPro at all.  From the sounds of it, Chinese investment is selling off all football activities like crazy: https://theathletic.com/1887653/2020/09/23/chinese-america-money-european-football/

MLS has also been setting up to produce all games in house, so MediaPro investing in production in Canada will be irrelevant to them. MLS's tv deals also expire in 2022 in the US and 2021 in Canada, making MediaPro's "building for 2026" irrelevant.  I would imagine any next tv deal will carry well through 2026.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Just so I've got this straight: MediaPro gambled on the French Ligue 1 rights, is losing heavily, is using Covid as a reason to back out of the deal they negotiated and squeezing League 1 like crazy with threats not to pay at all, and your reaction is "This is a company MLS would love to do business with."?  That sounds more like a partner I wouldn't trust at all.  If you needed 3.5-7 million subscribers and you're at 278k, then covid is irrelevant to the deal except as a convenient excuse to "renegotiate".  Ligue 1 might have to take a lesser deal, but you better believe they aren't going to forget how MediaPro treated them either.

Further: I wouldn't count on Chinese investment to bail out MediaPro at all.  From the sounds of it, Chinese investment is selling off all football activities like crazy: https://theathletic.com/1887653/2020/09/23/chinese-america-money-european-football/

MLS has also been setting up to produce all games in house, so MediaPro investing in production in Canada will be irrelevant to them. MLS's tv deals also expire in 2022 in the US and 2021 in Canada, making MediaPro's "building for 2026" irrelevant.  I would imagine any next tv deal will carry well through 2026.

It's not Chinese investment, it is Chinese controlling capital.

If you are in this business of football tv rights, you don't stop or stall or bow out because there is a bad season for reasons beyond your control. You leverage for the future. Where is this business going to be in 10 years? In 15? 

As for them losing heavily and needing to renegotiate, sounds fine by me. In June I renegotiated a contract I signed in Jan this year, asking for about 25% more, as the first underpaid me and my collaborator. And this insistence on my part was accepted by the other party. Because I was in the right, and our relationship going forward was more important than them squabbling with me.

Let's not be so naive about these things. Ligue 1 knows that everyone is taking a hit, they can't sit there and force Mediapro to pay up. Not legally, and not in good faith. I mean, what choice do they have? Do you think they could convice another bidder, their rival in the tender for example, to come in and pay what was originally offered?

Funny thing here is if Mediapro had said they were cutting back on their deal for the CPL, a huge chunk of posters on this board would have found it just fine.

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's not Chinese investment, it is Chinese controlling capital.

If you are in this business of football tv rights, you don't stop or stall or bow out because there is a bad season for reasons beyond your control. You leverage for the future. Where is this business going to be in 10 years? In 15? 

As for them losing heavily and needing to renegotiate, sounds fine by me. In June I renegotiated a contract I signed in Jan this year, asking for about 25% more, as the first underpaid me and my collaborator. And this insistence on my part was accepted by the other party. Because I was in the right, and our relationship going forward was more important than them squabbling with me.

Let's not be so naive about these things. Ligue 1 knows that everyone is taking a hit, they can't sit there and force Mediapro to pay up. Not legally, and not in good faith. I mean, what choice do they have? Do you think they could convice another bidder, their rival in the tender for example, to come in and pay what was originally offered?

Funny thing here is if Mediapro had said they were cutting back on their deal for the CPL, a huge chunk of posters on this board would have found it just fine.

Not sure what point you are trying to make about investment and control.  If you have control, you have invested more money to get that control.  And if you are constrained by how much capital you can invest, you won’t have a 10 or 15 year time horizon but looking to get it out as soon as you can.  From my understanding, the Chinese communist party is no longer approving capital to be taken out of China to fun sports enterprises so I suspect the Athletic article is correct which has profound implications for Mediapro if their controlling shareholder is Chinese.  

[Kent]

44 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Not sure what point you are trying to make about investment and control.  If you have control, you have invested more money to get that control.  And if you are constrained by how much capital you can invest, you won’t have a 10 or 15 year time horizon but looking to get it out as soon as you can.  From my understanding, the Chinese communist party is no longer approving capital to be taken out of China to fun sports enterprises so I suspect the Athletic article is correct which has profound implications for Mediapro if their controlling shareholder is Chinese.  

So I guess baseball is still OK

[Ruffian]

19 hours ago, Watchmen said:

MLS has also been setting up to produce all games in house

Is there more info on this? Not doubting, just interested.

[narduch]

Didn't MLS use to do it in house?

That seems more like a last resort if you can't get a high enough bid.

[Unnamed Trialist]

13 hours ago, An Observer said:

Not sure what point you are trying to make about investment and control.  If you have control, you have invested more money to get that control.  And if you are constrained by how much capital you can invest, you won’t have a 10 or 15 year time horizon but looking to get it out as soon as you can.  From my understanding, the Chinese communist party is no longer approving capital to be taken out of China to fun sports enterprises so I suspect the Athletic article is correct which has profound implications for Mediapro if their controlling shareholder is Chinese.  

This has been discussed at length over the past year or so, but from what I've read in relation to investing in clubs. Case in point are Valencia and Espanyol in Spain, with the former apparently for sale (the Leeds owner is interested).

Not in terms of media empires. They are trying to get Chinese money to invest in developing Chinese football, logically, but a media empire, which includes a company producing feature films for theatrical release apart from acquiring football rights, is not the same thing. But if you think that the Athletic has the inside track on this, fine.

I just find this plebian hysteria around Mediapro to be silly, its a business people. If your revenue streams weaken you renegotiate, readjust, resituate and restrategize. You try to not destroy everything you have built up over years because of an unexpected force majeur. Mediapro already negotiated a new line of credit (55 million euros, half from their Chinese owner and the other half from Western banks, which is not even that much) to hold up over this current downturn, but hey, so did I -- in fact probably most of you have at least indirectly benefitted from government handouts. By the same arguments some are making, most people on this board should be taking off their neoprenes and getting ready for frozen temperatures to make jumping off the nearest bridge worthwhile.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Valencia's owner is from Singapore, so not sure how the Chinese Communist Party would have any influence in that context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lim

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As for them losing heavily and needing to renegotiate, sounds fine by me.

 

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Let's not be so naive about these things. Ligue 1 knows that everyone is taking a hit, they can't sit there and force Mediapro to pay up. Not legally, and not in good faith. I mean, what choice do they have? Do you think they could convice another bidder, their rival in the tender for example, to come in and pay what was originally offered?

Mediapro was in a position to lose heavily before Covid.  Again, look at the subscription numbers they've gotten vs what they needed to break even (278k vs 3.5m).  If Mediapro had attempted to renegotiate at that time or refused to pay, I absolutely think Ligue 1 would have seen them in court.  Covid has made it difficult for everyone, and you're right that Ligue 1 knows this and some renegotiation isn't unreasonable.  But that should be done as partners, working together to figure out how to make it work.  The article seems to very much imply that that's not what's happening, that Mediapro is basically squeezing Ligue 1.  And while Ligue 1 might not be able to convince the rival tenders to pay what was originally offered, it is possible that they might be willing to pay more than Mediapro now.

[Watchmen]

dp

Edited October 13, 2020 by Watchmen

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ruffian said:

Is there more info on this? Not doubting, just interested.

Can't dig it back up, unfortunately.  I've seen it mentioned a few times in articles when discussing how none of the current TV deals (national and local) run beyond 2022 because the league wants to attempt to make "comprehensive TV rights packages". 

[An Observer]

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This has been discussed at length over the past year or so, but from what I've read in relation to investing in clubs. Case in point are Valencia and Espanyol in Spain, with the former apparently for sale (the Leeds owner is interested).

Not in terms of media empires. They are trying to get Chinese money to invest in developing Chinese football, logically, but a media empire, which includes a company producing feature films for theatrical release apart from acquiring football rights, is not the same thing. But if you think that the Athletic has the inside track on this, fine.

I just find this plebian hysteria around Mediapro to be silly, its a business people. If your revenue streams weaken you renegotiate, readjust, resituate and restrategize. You try to not destroy everything you have built up over years because of an unexpected force majeur. Mediapro already negotiated a new line of credit (55 million euros, half from their Chinese owner and the other half from Western banks, which is not even that much) to hold up over this current downturn, but hey, so did I -- in fact probably most of you have at least indirectly benefitted from government handouts. By the same arguments some are making, most people on this board should be taking off their neoprenes and getting ready for frozen temperatures to make jumping off the nearest bridge worthwhile.

Just to be clear and without revealing any confidences,  I have personally had multiple meetings in 2019 with Chinese officials in Beijing where they have said they are no longer going to allow capital to be exported out of China to fund frivolous ventures including sports, entertainment, etc.  I suspect that will loosen over time as that is a great way to export soft power which the US has done quite effectively for the last 100 years or so. But considering their need to fund their own extravagant debt levels domestically which are only accelerating do to Covid and US tensions, as well as funding their belt and road initiative globally which is a Xi imperative, I suspect it will continue for some time.  
 

if you are a western media company where your majority shareholder is Chinese, you are likely going to be starved of capital in the near term unless they are willing to divest themselves or give up control to someone else. But you need to find a willing buyer for that which in the time of Covid maybe difficult. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, An Observer said:

Just to be clear and without revealing any confidences,  I have personally had multiple meetings in 2019 with Chinese officials in Beijing where they have said they are no longer going to allow capital to be exported out of China to fund frivolous ventures including sports, entertainment, etc.  I suspect that will loosen over time as that is a great way to export soft power which the US has done quite effectively for the last 100 years or so. But considering their need to fund their own extravagant debt levels domestically which are only accelerating do to Covid and US tensions, as well as funding their belt and road initiative globally which is a Xi imperative, I suspect it will continue for some time.  

if you are a western media company where your majority shareholder is Chinese, you are likely going to be starved of capital in the near term unless they are willing to divest themselves or give up control to someone else. But you need to find a willing buyer for that which in the time of Covid maybe difficult. 

Fine, fair enough. This is what we are hearing, in general terms. But the first and easiest ones they are going at are the individual magnates playing around and losing money with major football clubs for fun, maybe because it is the least aesthetic. And when their own national program is not working.

The last thing they'll touch is establishing conglomerates and holdings in developing and even developed nations  where apart from, as you say, firming up soft power (especially in terms of binding local governments and financial institutions to Chinese investment, and thus conditioning policy through them), they are looking at resources and infrastructure they need (agricultural production in Africa, but, for example, commercial train connectors in the port of Barcelona).

The piece they are missing is cultural,, and that is where a group like Mediapro could come in.