What is our CB depth

[Keegan]

I kinda wonder if Henry is just a masochist who secretly loves making major mistakes.  At 18 you could excuse it.. now?  It’s just crazy, I had him pencilled in as a starter for Canada but is he really that much better than Cornelius?  And when you factor in errors, injury history and age.. maybe we should be going in a new direction.

[El Diego]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

I think Henry is just some good coaching away from being at the same level as Chris Mavinga, that is to say a very good CB for Canada. 

I cannot agree with this. Mavinga is infinitely better with the ball at his feet, and I don't think that coaching can make Henry that much better of a passer or more intelligent in terms of when to step forward and provide a forward ball or an outlet. I do agree that better coaching would have made Henry significantly better if he had gotten it as a youth. I am not sure how much more improvement he has left in him.

[Kadenge]

39 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I cannot agree with this. Mavinga is infinitely better with the ball at his feet, and I don't think that coaching can make Henry that much better of a passer or more intelligent in terms of when to step forward and provide a forward ball or an outlet. I do agree that better coaching would have made Henry significantly better if he had gotten it as a youth. I am not sure how much more improvement he has left in him.

Take a look at Wes Morgan's career path.

[toontownman]

.....and Titus Bramble. 

Maybe it's through biased rose tintet specs and certainly I haven't been paying full attention in the past few whitecaps games, who has on or off the pitch, but is he even making mistakes every game? I didn't think so? I know he has been praised and had a couple of MOTM performances. Are they mistakes he shouldn't be making. Yes. Are they the same mistakes others around him are making throughout the year? Yes. Hard to find anyone on that backline that hasn't. Waston a few years ago was as bad. 

There is only so much coaching he can take before he has to be the catalyst of his own mental change though. 

[KMB]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

I long believed that Henry was good at the things you can't coach, and bad at the things you CAN coach. I think limiting stupid mistakes is exactly the kind of thing you can coach out of a player. However, all these years later and it feels like it's still a problem (I don't watch much Whitecaps, so my observations are just anecdotal). I'm a lot less inclined to think he'll significantly improve that aspect of his game now.

I think part of his problem is his split-second decision making.  You can coach him and tell him not to throw his arms up all you want.  But in the heat of the moment, when he only has a second to make a decision, he seems to make the wrong decision more so than other players at his skill level.  That's what I was talking about when I said you can't coach that.  Because no matter what the coach tells him he doesn't have the time to think about that and will go with his instincts. And to many times his instinct are to give away a penalty or get a stupid red card.  But having said that he does make some amazing tackles and plays too, so you got to take the good with the bad

[Bdog]

6 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I think Henry is just some good coaching away from being at the same level as Chris Mavinga, that is to say a very good CB for Canada. 

I'd love to have a Mavinga on our back line but I don't see him getting to that level. I think he can still improve though, between 2015-2017 he only played 9 club games. In the games I've watched, other than the big mistakes everyone's talking about, he has looked good. If he can finally stay healthy and get consistent playing time you hope he can start cutting out mistakes.

[BearcatSA]

Henry is still a question mark in terms of decision making.  I'm not as convinced that better decision making will be coached into him but there is still hope.

I distinctly remember very early in the season Robbo mentioning that Henry was looking to go back for another shot in Europe next season but I don't think that will happen not next year, anyway).  If he can solidify himself as a consistently performing, upper echelon MLS CB, then that'll be great for club and country.  Hopefully, that happens

[The Beaver]

4 hours ago, toontownman said:

.....and Titus Bramble. 

Maybe it's through biased rose tintet specs and certainly I haven't been paying full attention in the past few whitecaps games, who has on or off the pitch, but is he even making mistakes every game? I didn't think so? I know he has been praised and had a couple of MOTM performances. Are they mistakes he shouldn't be making. Yes. Are they the same mistakes others around him are making throughout the year? Yes. Hard to find anyone on that backline that hasn't. Waston a few years ago was as bad. 

There is only so much coaching he can take before he has to be the catalyst of his own mental change though. 

Nah, he is certainly not making lots of errors, big or small, in every game. He has made a few big mistakes late in games, but otherwise he has been very solid. Not brilliant, but damned solid.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

12 hours ago, KMB said:

I think part of his problem is his split-second decision making.  You can coach him and tell him not to throw his arms up all you want.  But in the heat of the moment, when he only has a second to make a decision, he seems to make the wrong decision more so than other players at his skill level.  That's what I was talking about when I said you can't coach that.  Because no matter what the coach tells him he doesn't have the time to think about that and will go with his instincts. And to many times his instinct are to give away a penalty or get a stupid red card.  But having said that he does make some amazing tackles and plays too, so you got to take the good with the bad

You can certainly teach split-second decision making. You do it in specific simulations. It is easy to teach a person not to dive in. It is easy to lower the number of penalties and red cards. Henry just has to be willing and dedicated to learn and practice. Muscle memory is really important in sports. If we are being real, working next to Kendal Watson is exactly what he needs. A couple years back Watson used to have the exact same problem; red cards and penalties all the time. Hopefully Waston helps Henry.

[dyslexic nam]

I also think the mental lapses with the obvious hand balls are why you see some players literally hiding their arms behind their backs when defending in the box.  It looks like the sort of thing a coach would make someone do when they have shown the tendency to reach for the ball (though I have to admit that I fund it utterly baffling that players at this level still do this sort of thing). 

[Kent]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I also think the mental lapses with the obvious hand balls are why you see some players literally hiding their arms behind their backs when defending in the box.  It looks like the sort of thing a coach would make someone do when they have shown the tendency to reach for the ball (though I have to admit that I fund it utterly baffling that players at this level still do this sort of thing). 

I don't think it's about preventing reaching for the ball. I think it's about preventing your hand from being hit by the ball. Sometimes it gets called by refs even when your arms are in a natural position and there was no attempt to play the ball with your hand, so it's safest to hide your arms. On the penalty against Henry this past weekend it seemed like he trained himself (or by a coach) to do the exact opposite because he was putting his arms in an unnatural position in order to block the ball with his arms.

[dyslexic nam]

15 minutes ago, Kent said:

I don't think it's about preventing reaching for the ball. I think it's about preventing your hand from being hit by the ball. Sometimes it gets called by refs even when your arms are in a natural position and there was no attempt to play the ball with your hand, so it's safest to hide your arms. On the penalty against Henry this past weekend it seemed like he trained himself (or by a coach) to do the exact opposite because he was putting his arms in an unnatural position in order to block the ball with his arms.

Maybe.  I always saw it as a sort of self-discipline technique as well.

I suppose the two are not mutually exclusive. 

[SpecialK]

Any word on Luca Gasparotto?? Accoarding to tranfermarket he’s been without a club since July. He would be perfect for CPL or USL. Has a ton of  experience playing in Scotland over 100 games at  various  divisions. 

[Shway]

4 year bump ( I swear there was another thread)

I think it looks like this..

1. Vitoria (36)
2. Miller (25)
3. Cornelius (25)
4. Kennedy (25)
5. Henry (29)
6. Waterman (27)
7. Zator (28)
8. MacNaughton (27)
9. Heibert (25)

 

[shorty]

Assuming we aren’t thinking of AJ as a RCB, I agree with this list, although I would argue that you could mostly shuffle 4 through 7 and few would notice or complain. Maybe later in the season you could shuffle 4 through 9, depending on how well STL does and how poorly Rosted and Hedges do. 

[Jack1997]

Honestly you add guys like Bombito and Yao who are likely to get some minutes this year and that looks like a really good group IMO I just think the one thing we lack is 1 top level CB.

[dyslexic nam]

12 minutes ago, Jack1997 said:

Honestly you add guys like Bombito and Yao who are likely to get some minutes this year and that looks like a really good group IMO I just think the one thing we lack is 1 top level CB.

Gotta disagree that this looks like a “really good group”.  For me it is seriously lacking in quality compared to everywhere else on the pitch for our team.  We have truly excellent players at striker, wings, midfield, outside backs and keeper.   The quality literally everywhere else is higher with guys playing at higher levels.  And given Vitoria’s age, we have to be approaching the moment when he either retires or declines - and he is a massive piece of our defensive core.  

[Approve My Account Pls]

17 minutes ago, Jack1997 said:

Honestly you add guys like Bombito and Yao who are likely to get some minutes this year and that looks like a really good group IMO I just think the one thing we lack is 1 top level CB.

Idk if I'd go as far as to say really good. We've got reasonable depth as in most of that list are serviceable and comparable but we are really lacking those tier 1 CBs to take us to the next level

[Cicero]

Vitoria is almost done, below him there is no one on the list that I would say is reliable against elite world competition. Is Henry injured again? He wasn't even on the bench this weekend. This group is good enough for Concacaf, but not against top twenty FIFA competition. I know the US and Mexico are on that list, but if they weren't in Concacaf, they probably wouldn't be. This is still easily our weakest position.

[Corazon]

Many of our CB's need to be getting minutes as well.  Henry may be injuried but Miller, Hiebert and Waterman are likely the only starting CB's to start this MLS season (aside from Camacho).

MLS Center Backs during Week 1

Miller - 90 Minutes

Camacho - 90 Minutes

Hiebert - 90 Minutes

Bombito - 0 Minutes

Ferkranus - 0 Minutes

Henry - 0 Minutes

Waterman - 0 Minutes

MacNaughton - 0 Minutes

Singh - 0 Minutes

Yao - 0 Minutes

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Corazon

[SoCalTransport]

1 hour ago, Corazon said:

Many of our CB's need to be getting minutes as well.  Henry may be injuried but Miller, Hiebert and Waterman are likely the only starting CB's to start this MLS season (aside from Camacho).

MLS Center Backs during Week 1

Miller - 90 Minutes

Camacho - 90 Minutes

Hiebert - 90 Minutes

Bombito - 0 Minutes

Ferkranus - 0 Minutes

Henry - 0 Minutes

Waterman - 0 Minutes

MacNaughton - 0 Minutes

Singh - 0 Minutes

Yao - 0 Minutes

 

I wonder if Hiebert will get a call up after a few games in MLS. 🤔

I think that says a lot about our depth at this position.

[Jack1997]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Gotta disagree that this looks like a “really good group”.  For me it is seriously lacking in quality compared to everywhere else on the pitch for our team.  We have truly excellent players at striker, wings, midfield, outside backs and keeper.   The quality literally everywhere else is higher with guys playing at higher levels.  And given Vitoria’s age, we have to be approaching the moment when he either retires or declines - and he is a massive piece of our defensive core.  

That’s why I said we need 1 top level CB and I would be very comfortable with our CBs but as of right now I think we have good enough CBs to be comfortable In concacf but to be able to compete at higher stages one of Smith, Bombito, Knight-Lebel, Stefanovic, Yao or another will have to emerge as tier 1 CB.

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

Honestly you add guys like Bombito and Yao who are likely to get some minutes this year and that looks like a really good group IMO I just think the one thing we lack is 1 top level CB.

Unless there is a long term injury to Veselinovič, Laborda, or Blackmon, I don't see many minutes for him.  

[sebdeserio]

Inspired by something similar in the us soccer subreddit I made a spreadsheet that compares players in the pool based on their Fotmob scores, adjusting for the different leagues based on the standard deviation average SPI of the leagues, with MLS being the mean. I know Fotmob isn't perfect but was wondering if there'd be an appetite for it? This is the example for full backs:

 

edit: meant to post this in one of the full back threads oops

Edited February 28, 2023 by sebdeserio

[narduch]

12 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

Inspired by something similar in the us soccer subreddit I made a spreadsheet that compares players in the pool based on their Fotmob scores, adjusting for the different leagues based on the standard deviation average SPI of the leagues, with MLS being the mean. I know Fotmob isn't perfect but was wondering if there'd be an appetite for it? This is the example for full backs:

 

edit: meant to post this in one of the full back threads oops

This is awesome