What is our CB depth

[BearcatSA]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:24 PM, Obinna said:

Perhaps I missed this, but isn't Waterman healthy now? I know he missed the first game or two of the season, but he's played since then, so when you say injury derailed him what do you mean exactly? Are you suggesting this is why he wasn't called? I figured Herdman just decided to go with Zator instead, since he's clearly in better form and probably has better fitness as well. Both are backups to Johnston, but we only really need one of them.

At first I thought the coaches would go with Euro based guys as the back ups outside the core group (the "brotherhood" is stale) but I see Akinola called up (and nursing an injury, as well) so now I am not so sure.  Like you, I think they are doing a re-kick of the tires with Zator, considering his club form.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Waterman was clearly ahead of Zator in the depth charts but the start of his season was derailed by injuries. Im not saying that he is dropped because he is injured. At the time of the roster announcement, waterman had 1 game played this year. He needs to find form and fitness, which is one of the reasons zator got the call.

I honestly think that Zator playing RB is more of a hinderence than a help for his CMNT. We are weak in RCB depth and johnston is only a RCB in a back 3 but could never do it in a back 4. Zats biggest opportunity with CMNT is at RCB, not RB. Obviously the versatility helps but we want zats as a CB who can play RB rather than a RB who can play CB. 

In a back 4, Laryea and Johnston are clearly our RB and I can't see Zator being utilized there. Even in a back 4, i think buchanan starts at RB ahead of Zator, unless we are bunkering down defensively. 

In a wingback formation, theres zero chance zator plays there. Zat's is our CB depth for vitoria as we dont have another right footed CB. 

Gotcha. 

I agree Waterman is ahead of Zator, because he's been involved in more camps, including the World Cup squad, which is huge. Keep in mind though that any advantage Waterman has right now is tenuous and may possibly vanish depending on how this camp goes for Zator. Whether it is form, fitness or something else, Zator is in camp right now and Waterman isn't. Waterman hasn't had a ton of camps and caps yet to cement his place in the team, so the RB/RCB hybrid role behind Johnston is up for grabs. 

Speaking of which, I have a different view when it comes to Zator playing RB. I see this as being a key factor in getting another call up. Herdman loves positional flexibility so I imagine that Zator demonstrated he can play RB well in a tier 2 European league (Polish topflight) and this actually grabbed Herdman's attention. It's a positive thing, not a negative thing. 

Zator will always be a CB at heart, so playing more RB is all about getting him more accustomed to playing out wide. This actually enhances his ability to play RCB, it doesn't hinder it. 

Agreed that Zator will not be a wingback option. He's depth for Johnston at RCB in a back 3 and Vitoria in a back 4. He's also depth at RB in a back 4, but 3rd behind Johnston and Laryea for this camp. 

Let's remember too that Johnston is out for tomorrow, so Laryea will start if we go 4 at the back. If the game is going well, and if Dom has trained well, I think he could come on at RB for Laryea. Herdman (Biello?) may want or need to shift to a back 3 and without Johnston Zator is the prime option, assuming he has earned the trust of the coaching staff. 

[CanadaFan123]

Have to agree with @Obinna it seems that if he is playing at RB it’s as a defensive fullback but just last week he seemed to have been back at CB. I guess if we could compare him to past Canadian defenders he’s sort of like Straith or Edgar … two natural CBs who played RB out of necessity and did a decent job there but still CBs at the end of the day.

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Have to agree with @Obinna it seems that if he is playing at RB it’s as a defensive fullback but just last week he seemed to have been back at CB. I guess if we could compare him to past Canadian defenders he’s sort of like Straith or Edgar … two natural CBs who played RB out of necessity and did a decent job there but still CBs at the end of the day.

Andre Hainault is another one you could add to that list. 

[Aird25]

Zator has been very important for his squad in possession and building out of the back playing as a RB. I think he averages significantly more passes into the final third than anyone else on the team, and he creates a fair share of chances too

[Kadenge]

If Tajon is not ready to go, Zator may start on Saturday at RB/RCB with Laryea  playing wide mid/WB 

[Bigandy]

On 3/24/2023 at 6:22 PM, Kadenge said:

If Tajon is not ready to go, Zator may start on Saturday at RB/RCB with Laryea  playing wide mid/WB 

Johnston

[InglewoodJack]

Has Gabriele Corbo been mentioned yet? He was just transferred back to Montreal, and depending on if last year counts towards his 5 years in Canada or not, since he did go back to Italy for 3 months, he could be eligible for us at 26 or 27- just after next World Cup, but a very nice player to have in our player pool nonetheless. This is assuming, of course, that he becomes a CFM legend and never leaves the club, and I’m not sure if that’s the type of player we’ll be looking for in 4 years or so, but I’ve been really impressed with him when I’ve watched him, and if he were already Canadian, he’d probably have already played minutes for us. 

[Bison44]

Holy, CORBO???  I hope this is a joke.  What did he play 10 MLS games last year, maybe been in canada a year?  Cripes if the bar is that low, ummm.  I thought it was crazy to talk about Camacho who has been here for 5 years and is an actual starter in MLS.  

[Club Linesman]

Our CB depth took us to the flipping World Cup after leading Concacaf qualifying.  I get it Vittoria is older and won’t be around. Someone will step up and Herdman will get the most out of roster to ensure that we are fine leading into 2026.

[InglewoodJack]

41 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Holy, CORBO???  I hope this is a joke.  What did he play 10 MLS games last year, maybe been in canada a year?  Cripes if the bar is that low, ummm.  I thought it was crazy to talk about Camacho who has been here for 5 years and is an actual starter in MLS.  

23, played 14 games, started 13 of them, played 1100 minutes, I mean we have half the board twerking for Kyle Hiebert because he had a good 3 game stretch, no clue why Corbo is apparently this insane consideration. Hopefully we have better options, but if not, he’s not the worst depth pick up for us. Unless you have some CBs playing high level European soccer that you’re hiding from us, of course. 

[Bison44]

18 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

23, played 14 games, started 13 of them, played 1100 minutes, I mean we have half the board twerking for Kyle Hiebert because he had a good 3 game stretch, no clue why Corbo is apparently this insane consideration. Hopefully we have better options, but if not, he’s not the worst depth pick up for us. Unless you have some CBs playing high level European soccer that you’re hiding from us, of course. 

Maybe because Heibert is CDN, was born here, is a citiizen, played on CDN youth teams already?? You know we are from Canada, we are excited about a young CDN doing well.  Having some sort of delusions over every random foreign guy who plays 14 games in canada and shows some promise,  doesnt seem real productive whether he is better than comparable CDN kids or not.  First off Corbo has to pan out, and not pan out too much he doesnt play for where ever he is from, then he has to like it here and the program enough to switch etc, ie Herdman as to put time and effort into him to get him to switch. And then 4 years from now he might...might actually become eligible.  Usually this kind of talk doesnt start to surface until the player has been in Canada for 3-4 years and actually shows some interest.  

[InglewoodJack]

43 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Maybe because Heibert is CDN, was born here, is a citiizen, played on CDN youth teams already?? You know we are from Canada, we are excited about a young CDN doing well.  Having some sort of delusions over every random foreign guy who plays 14 games in canada and shows some promise,  doesnt seem real productive whether he is better than comparable CDN kids or not.  First off Corbo has to pan out, and not pan out too much he doesnt play for where ever he is from, then he has to like it here and the program enough to switch etc, ie Herdman as to put time and effort into him to get him to switch. And then 4 years from now he might...might actually become eligible.  Usually this kind of talk doesnt start to surface until the player has been in Canada for 3-4 years and actually shows some interest.  

Hiebert has also played what, 3 games? C'mon man. He's not even a guaranteed starter at St. Louis! It's great to be excited for a good young canadian who is doing well, but Hiebert, like 95% of the players we discuss here are longshots to become key players of our NT, and not to mention- it's not like our CB depth chart is going to significantly change in the next few years, so I don't see how discussing a player who would only play for us in ~4 years is different than hyping up a CB with single digit MLS games, or a prospect playing in the 5th division of France like Justin Smith. That doesn't even count the countless posts hoping that Dan Jebbison and Luca Koleosho develop ~20% crappier than expected so they can swallow their pride and play for us when they're like 24 and their world cup dreams have dried up. All of this shit is hypothetical and will likely not matter in the grand scheme. It's not that serious.

[Bison44]

My point is nobody mentioned him because he ISNT CDN.

 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Club Linesman said:

Our CB depth took us to the flipping World Cup after leading Concacaf qualifying.  I get it Vittoria is older and won’t be around. Someone will step up and Herdman will get the most out of roster to ensure that we are fine leading into 2026.

We also played Hutch at CD with disatrous results like 3 times, so take from that what you will.  Also, Johnston is not a RCB, he fills in due to our lack of depth as well. 

I don't feel we can picky and choosy just yet.  I'll take any decent and capable dual-nat that is good and willing for the right reasons.

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Holy, CORBO???  I hope this is a joke.  What did he play 10 MLS games last year, maybe been in canada a year?  Cripes if the bar is that low, ummm.  I thought it was crazy to talk about Camacho who has been here for 5 years and is an actual starter in MLS.  

Yes, but even if it is 10 games, it's 10 games on one of the best sides in MLS.  We ain't talkin McNaughton here.  

[costarg]

28 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

My point is nobody mentioned him because he ISNT CDN.

 

Understood, but still, I ain't turning my nose up at any CB at the moment.  At least not until we have some real depth.

[Bison44]

Blackmon, Oniell??  Maybe that other american kid at Montreal?  

27 minutes ago, costarg said:

Understood, but still, I ain't turning my nose up at any CB at the moment.  At least not until we have some real depth.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Bison44

[Wingback6]

After watching the game against Honduras, it became apparent how dependent we are on Vitoria in several areas. Marshaling the defense. Playing out from the back. And areal defense.

I thought we struggled in all 3 areas without him. And against a weak Honduras side no less. Whatever way you cut it, we have significant depth at CB, even if some of the quality is suspect. My concern is that we do not have a clear successor to Vitoria in our stable. And I don't think we can safely play with a back 3 using those remaining.

The move to a flat back 4 seems inevitable. Which we have the numbers for. At CB and FB. But with no clear ball player in the back, it means we need to ordain a proper CDM or two. Someone with size, and power, to shield the back line, while freeing our box to box and attacking mids. (I would categorize most of our mids as either of these). But I cannot think of anyone available to us who fully fits that bill. And it is concerning.

Now, if Justin Smith commits, then I think that changes things. Potentially. 

[eramosat]

52 minutes ago, Wingback6 said:

After watching the game against Honduras, it became apparent how dependent we are on Vitoria in several areas. Marshaling the defense. Playing out from the back. And areal defense.

I thought we struggled in all 3 areas without him. And against a weak Honduras side no less. Whatever way you cut it, we have significant depth at CB, even if some of the quality is suspect. My concern is that we do not have a clear successor to Vitoria in our stable. And I don't think we can safely play with a back 3 using those remaining.

The move to a flat back 4 seems inevitable. Which we have the numbers for. At CB and FB. But with no clear ball player in the back, it means we need to ordain a proper CDM or two. Someone with size, and power, to shield the back line, while freeing our box to box and attacking mids. (I would categorize most of our mids as either of these). But I cannot think of anyone available to us who fully fits that bill. And it is concerning.

Now, if Justin Smith commits, then I think that changes things. Potentially. 

all i can say is seems like a very strange take-away from that match, with how the back line performed, some in new roles.

guess it all depends on the competition Canada faces.  for now, I'll be happy to face off against CONCACAF opponents solidly 

[Wingback6]

20 hours ago, eramosat said:

all i can say is seems like a very strange take-away from that match, with how the back line performed, some in new roles.

guess it all depends on the competition Canada faces.  for now, I'll be happy to face off against CONCACAF opponents solidly 

Well... it wasn't a take away from that match only. But we have 2 keys guys who are 35/36 that allow us to play a certain way. As excited as I am for the result, and how the rest of the spring is going to look. The reality is, there are issues at the back beyond depth, that will require addressing, sooner, rather than later.

[YorkRegionFan]

It looks like Julian Dunn-Johnson has started playing limited minutes with HamKam recently.  Hopefully he can get through the season injury free.

--- 

Sorry everyone.  I was reading match reports from 2022.  Dunn-Johnson still has not played.this year.

Edited April 9, 2023 by YorkRegionFan
Misread match reports.

[Bigandy]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:01 PM, Wingback6 said:

After watching the game against Honduras, it became apparent how dependent we are on Vitoria in several areas. Marshaling the defense. Playing out from the back. And areal defense.

I thought we struggled in all 3 areas without him. And against a weak Honduras side no less. Whatever way you cut it, we have significant depth at CB, even if some of the quality is suspect. My concern is that we do not have a clear successor to Vitoria in our stable. And I don't think we can safely play with a back 3 using those remaining.

The move to a flat back 4 seems inevitable. Which we have the numbers for. At CB and FB. But with no clear ball player in the back, it means we need to ordain a proper CDM or two. Someone with size, and power, to shield the back line, while freeing our box to box and attacking mids. (I would categorize most of our mids as either of these). But I cannot think of anyone available to us who fully fits that bill. And it is concerning.

Now, if Justin Smith commits, then I think that changes things. Potentially. 

I had the complete opposite assessment. Vitoria was getting roasted for pace against a fairly poor curacao team and that was the only time we looked vulnerable. When Kennedy was on the field vs hondorous we could play a high line and he was mopping up everything. Cornelius is our 3rd choice lcb so that could impact our ability to play out from the back but I don't think vitorias build up play is that great... I even think its one of his weaker attributes. 100% agree that his leadership was missed.

[Free kick]

While most can agree that there room for upgrade at CB, one or two games is no where near enough to judge newer CB's because consistency over many games is an important attribute of that role.    Hence,  you need to look players like Kennedy and Cornelius much more or we need to be able see how they fare at their clubs in order to really judge.  It would help a great deal to see progression at clubs or league levels.  

Edited April 3, 2023 by Free kick

[Bigandy]

Updating my depth chart. Lots of potential movers but I chose to go with  likelihood of call ups/playing time.... Obviously a guy like LDF and JKL have some leeway as prospects.
RCB 
1. Vitoria
2. LDF
3. Bombito
4. JKL?
5. ZMG
6. Zator
7. LM
8. Waterman
9. Stefanovic 
10.Nimick

LCB
1. Miller
2. Cornelius
3. Kennedy
4. Heibert