Ottawa CPL Club

[Ansem]

Business minds are prevailing, I like it

[youllneverwalkalone]

I know the CPL was embarrassed having to start with 7 but, come on, taking on the Fury is the most logical step next year. Balanced schedule, existing players and infrastructure, and another large market with a functional stadium. Work it out. 

[dyslexic nam]

13 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

100%. And I'm sure OSEG built in covenants into the lease with the limited partnership which runs the Fury, which is controlled by OSEG, which allows them to terminate the lease at any time. 

If the Fury are in trouble and they're considering folding the club they would terminate the lease and then look to renegotiate with a new club.

I see a plausible scenario in which the Fury fold, a new group emerges with a CPL club and they negotiate a new lease with OSEG to play at TD Place.

I agree.  If the social media chatter is to be believed, ti seems unlikely that the Fury under OSEG will ever kick a ball in the CPL.  But things would have to be ridiculously toxic for them to try and "salt the earth" in terms of CPL by not allowing any Ottawa CPL club to play at TD Place as a paying client.  I just don't see business people making that sort of decision.  I could see them choosing not to partner with people they dislike, but it would be way more extreme to forgo an important revenue stream just for spite.

 

 

[Ansem]

Just now, youllneverwalkalone said:

I know the CPL was embarrassed having to start with 7 but, come on, taking on the Fury is the most logical step next year. Balanced schedule, existing players and infrastructure, and another large market with a functional stadium. Work it out. 

Well, a Quebec team ranks higher I would say. We're getting #8 next year, Fury or not

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree.  If the social media chatter is to be believed, ti seems unlikely that the Fury under OSEG will ever kick a ball in the CPL.  But things would have to be ridiculously toxic for them to try and "salt the earth" in terms of CPL by not allowing any Ottawa CPL club to play at TD Place as a paying client.  I just don't see business people making that sort of decision.  I could see them choosing not to partner with people they dislike, but it would be way more extreme to forgo an important revenue stream just for spite.

 

 

Adding they've been losing money as they currently are, they need the soccer revenue. Like someone say, they would most likely ask for higher rent as they have the most suitable stadium in the region

Edited May 17, 2019 by Ansem

[ironcub14]

All of these hypothetical scenarios are based on the assumption that OSEG would rather fold the Fury than join CPL, which to me makes little financial sense.

CPL is doing about as well attendance-wise as I expected, and I think, or I hope, that it has a sustainable long-term financial viability. OSEG would be silly financially to fold a club because it didn't want to take on the initial fixed costs, when the parallels between CFL and CPL are so obvious for everyone to see except for the Fury back in 2018.

If OSEG does come to its senses, then it's in every interest for CPL to come to compromises in the entry negotiations, although I completely understand the bitterness that CPL would harbour at OSEG for leaving the league with 7 clubs at launch. I don't know how many people here are Fury SSHs, but if this thread were to be shared on FB or Twitter, I can just imagine the volley of vitrol that some Fury SSHs would unleash on these hypothetical scenarios above that involves the Fury folding and a new Ottawa CPL club coming in.

In case some of you forgot, the vast majority of Fury fans who were pro-USL in 2018 were open to CPL for 2020 and beyond, as long as the league "proved" itself. Not a single one of these fans would accept the Fury folding however. I don't see OSEG folding the Fury, and I don't think it'd be wise for any external forces to impose that either. I hope CONCACAF announces the correct ruling early this year, and that both OSEG and CPL comes to its senses during the negotiations.

Edited May 17, 2019 by ironcub14

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

29 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

...I hope CONCACAF announces the correct ruling early this year, ...

Will be interesting to see how they could justify blocking the Fury but not the three MLS teams whose sanctionings are done year by year as well under the same FIFA statutes, which is another way of saying don't hold your breath.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Will be interesting to see how they could justify blocking the Fury but not the three MLS teams whose sanctionings are done year by year as well under the same FIFA statutes, which is another way of saying don't hold your breath.

The justification has been mentioned many, many times. 

The Fury play in a league that is reasonably comparable to CPL.  By most indications, budgets, player skill level, attendance levels, etc., are comparable.  Thus there is no "exceptional circumstance" that could be cited to justify the continued participation in USL.

The 3 Canadian MLS teams do not play in a league that is reasonably comparable to CPL.  The budgets are categorically different, the level of play is a significant step higher at present, the attendance levels are higher, and the level of investment is substantially higher.  Thus you can easily make the argument that "exceptional circumstances" still apply and justify their continued participation in USL.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If Canada has a fully pro D1 league then all fully pro teams from Canada should be in that league and that is what will happen with all newly sanctioned teams. The regulations on this make no distinction for making comparisons with another country's D2 and D1. The only basis for allowing the three MLS teams to stay where they are is that they are grandfathered in and the same argument can be applied just as easily to the Fury. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'm not saying this is happening soon, but the big play for the CPL is to get the MLS clubs. Not those clubs per se, but the owners selling the franchise rights to a US group for relocation and starting a new in the CPL under a much better cost structure. My guess would be 2022, if and when this fails:

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/mls-tv-rights-deal-2022-espn-fox-univision

The expansion fees will be in the bank, and all the costs will have skyrocketed unless this TV deal blows the doors off -which would have to be north of $500m US annually to justify what a club needs to spend on salary given the gate revenues (Caps just had their worst crowd of the MLS era for the MLS Cup champions).

These clubs will drive attendance and tv interest in the CPL the way Laval, Surrey, and York can`t really. Ottawa, in my opinion, would be a bit of a low risk experimental trial to see how this would happen.

[youllneverwalkalone]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Well, a Quebec team ranks higher I would say. We're getting #8 next year, Fury or not

Rebrand them Gatineau Fureur

[BuzzAndSting]

49 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

All of these hypothetical scenarios are based on the assumption that OSEG would rather fold the Fury than join CPL, which to me makes little financial sense.

CPL is doing about as well attendance-wise as I expected, and I think, or I hope, that it has a sustainable long-term financial viability. OSEG would be silly financially to fold a club because it didn't want to take on the initial fixed costs, when the parallels between CFL and CPL are so obvious for everyone to see except for the Fury back in 2018.

If OSEG does come to its senses, then it's in every interest for CPL to come to compromises in the entry negotiations, although I completely understand the bitterness that CPL would harbour at OSEG for leaving the league with 7 clubs at launch. I don't know how many people here are Fury SSHs, but if this thread were to be shared on FB or Twitter, I can just imagine the volley of vitrol that some Fury SSHs would unleash on these hypothetical scenarios above that involves the Fury folding and a new Ottawa CPL club coming in.

In case some of you forgot, the vast majority of Fury fans who were pro-USL in 2018 were open to CPL for 2020 and beyond, as long as the league "proved" itself. Not a single one of these fans would accept the Fury folding however. I don't see OSEG folding the Fury, and I don't think it'd be wise for any external forces to impose that either. I hope CONCACAF announces the correct ruling early this year, and that both OSEG and CPL comes to its senses during the negotiations.

You are correct about the assumptions about OSEG folding the Fury, because that's what the narrative is currently. Only Ruddy, Shenkman, Greenberg, Hunt and Pugh know the truth.

The more I hear rumours and whispers about the club folding the more I start to think that the cost of moving to the CPL is much higher than we anticipate. It was rumoured last year that the Fury had negotiated a non-existent or minuscule exit fee with the USL if the club left for the CPL but we don't know how much or if the CPL would charge the club an entry fee. This is where I think the rumours of folding come from. If OSEG is faced with de-sanctioning and the prospect of paying another large entry fee it's totally plausible that they fold considering they've probably lost money or at best broken even year after year. 

As a former season ticket holder I would be devastated but I believe that scenario is becoming more and more likely. 

[to70]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Well, a Quebec team ranks higher I would say. We're getting #8 next year, Fury or not

Have to agree with you. Either with a QC or Montreal area team with a Sask. team following. I don't think another Ontario team is a priority

[JamboAl]

Agree with everyone who thinks this is and always has been a business transaction.  I’m not defending OSEG or the way they have conducted their PR but they are looking at the risk reward proposition on the CPL and still don’t see it working (and they’ve already got a bunch of sunk costs).  I’ve never considered the fold option as being possible-but I can somewhat see it now albeit still a distant one.  And if that happens, if I were OSEG, I’d be looking to milk any owner wanting to use TD Place as a facility for as much as they could stand to the detriment of having a CPL team playing there.  Hello Rugby League?  

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

 Hello Rugby League?  

Rugby Union is also an option now, with Major League Rugby now operating out of Toronto

[Initial B]

17 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

There is no Fury infrastructure.

There is: The front office sales and ticket staff for the Fury are shared with the 67s and RedBlacks. There are separate locker rooms and training rooms for RedBlacks and Fury players underneath the new south stands. 

[Initial B]

4 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I'm not saying this is happening soon, but the big play for the CPL is to get the MLS clubs. Not those clubs per se, but the owners selling the franchise rights to a US group for relocation and starting a new in the CPL under a much better cost structure.

MLSE will never, ever, sell their stake in MLS. Remember that unlike Impact and Whitecap Ownerships, TFC directly generates content for the media outlets of their Bell/Rogers owners. They will be the equivalent of the Raptors and Jays - holding the "Canada's Team" flag in a US league.

Saputo, otoh, has Bologna in Serie A to satiate his Div 1 cravings, if needed. The Whitecaps are having troubles with their organization but I still don't see them moving to CPL. There is too much rivalry invested with their Cascadia counterparts to leave easily.

[BuzzAndSting]

14 minutes ago, Initial B said:

There is: The front office sales and ticket staff for the Fury are shared with the 67s and RedBlacks. There are separate locker rooms and training rooms for RedBlacks and Fury players underneath the new south stands. 

Right and those staff would be laid off as they’re most likely employed by OSEG and not the Fury limited partnership. And the locker rooms are part of the stadium which is operated by OSEG. Neither would have any value in a sale of the club.

[Initial B]

4 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

The more I hear rumours and whispers about the club folding the more I start to think that the cost of moving to the CPL is much higher than we anticipate. It was rumoured last year that the Fury had negotiated a non-existent or minuscule exit fee with the USL if the club left for the CPL but we don't know how much or if the CPL would charge the club an entry fee. This is where I think the rumours of folding come from. If OSEG is faced with de-sanctioning and the prospect of paying another large entry fee it's totally plausible that they fold considering they've probably lost money or at best broken even year after year. 

From what I was told at the SSH meeting, if the Fury were forced to switch leagues, they would. But if the CPL folded, the Fury would be folding right along with them.

Another problem with another soccer team using TD Place Stadium is that they would have to hire their own front office separate from OSEG, who currently enjoys economies of scale using the same front office for three teams. That would lead to increased operational costs for the new club that might make it unsustainable. They may as well look for a new location.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Initial B

[xabuep2]

4 hours ago, to70 said:

Have to agree with you. Either with a QC or Montreal area team with a Sask. team following. I don't think another Ontario team is a priority

 

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

Well, a Quebec team ranks higher I would say. We're getting #8 next year, Fury or not

I suppose if there is a new club for next year, the city of that football club should have a ready stadium or  where else would it play? , which City currently meets this requirement? for 2020 ? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Saskatoon with the Prairieland grandstand, Moncton and St John's are the obvious ones. Talk of Laval and Quebec City on that timeline definitely seems to fly in the face of the stadium issue.

[Alex D]

Quebec has the most ready made stadium of them all

[An Observer]

 

13 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

OSEG built and operates Lansdowne which includes TD Place, both the field where the RedBlacks and Fury play, the stadium where the 67s play and the retail/office space around the two. The land and stadiums belong to the city but OSEG has exclusive rights to operate both for 20+ years (can't remember the exact deal and how many years left, it was either 25 or 30 when signed). Essentially they control the facilities and land as if they owned it. They choose tenants and lease rates, hold festivals and exhibitions, etc... 

OSEG also owns the RedBlacks, 67s and Fury, who are probably prioritized in that order. So if they decide to sell the Fury what would they sell? All of the assets "owned" by the Fury are probably actually owned by a limited liability partnership controlled by OSEG. Same with the brand and of all it's marks, the contract obligations, whether that's players or technical staff and anything related to the soccer operations. All front office and stadium operations staff are either OSEG staff or under the employee of a contractor like Levy.

So what has value? The brand has some value but honestly very little, especially if the club isn't operating at TD Place and purchase of the Fury does not guarantee a lease at TD Place, that would have to be negotiated. All assets and equipment probably wouldn't amount to more than 6 figures. Contracts of players and staff have no value because a new owner would probably want to renegotiate those.

The only thing that seemingly has any value is the USL franchise but that's basically worthless in Canada because of the issues with CONCACAF. Therefore the only potential buyers would be US based which then means everything else, like the brand, have no value.

If I were interested in operating a team in Ottawa at TD Place, I would just wait out the Fury's death and then try to negotiate a lease. Or I'd look to build my own facility elsewhere. Either way I wouldn't be interested in buying the Fury.

I think we are saying the same thing

Edited May 18, 2019 by An Observer

[Kent]

On 5/17/2019 at 10:51 AM, dyslexic nam said:

The justification has been mentioned many, many times. 

The Fury play in a league that is reasonably comparable to CPL.  By most indications, budgets, player skill level, attendance levels, etc., are comparable.  Thus there is no "exceptional circumstance" that could be cited to justify the continued participation in USL.

The 3 Canadian MLS teams do not play in a league that is reasonably comparable to CPL.  The budgets are categorically different, the level of play is a significant step higher at present, the attendance levels are higher, and the level of investment is substantially higher.  Thus you can easily make the argument that "exceptional circumstances" still apply and justify their continued participation in USL.

From what I have seen, there isn't anything in the regulations about "exceptional circumstances" that says anything about comparable leagues. If the size of budgets, attendance levels, and level of play were important, then many European leagues would have 1-3 teams that would meet that criteria of exceptional circumstances. Yes I know that the regulations in those countries are likely different from the regulations here, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it's not exactly unheard of to have imbalances among those criteria within a league.

Maaaybe those things can constitute "exceptional circumstances", or maybe they are only looking at the availability of a league that would welcome the team. We don't know.

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Kent said:

From what I have seen, there isn't anything in the regulations about "exceptional circumstances" that says anything about comparable leagues. If the size of budgets, attendance levels, and level of play were important, then many European leagues would have 1-3 teams that would meet that criteria of exceptional circumstances. Yes I know that the regulations in those countries are likely different from the regulations here, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it's not exactly unheard of to have imbalances among those criteria within a league.

Maaaybe those things can constitute "exceptional circumstances", or maybe they are only looking at the availability of a league that would welcome the team. We don't know.

I guess my point is that there is no guidelines either way, so BBTB saying that  "If Canada has a fully pro D1 league then all fully pro teams from Canada should be in that league" is just speculation.  The reality is that we have no idea on what grounds FIFA makes its decision.  Maybe they weigh league strength, maybe they don't.  

I am not saying that the Canadian MLS clubs will be allowed to play in MLS indefinitely - just that it is silly to assume we know FIFA's thought process when there is absolutely no explanation given.  

In retrospect is suppose my post should have specified "potential justification".