Ottawa CPL Club

[BuzzAndSting]

19 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're speculating that they would turn extra cash down out of spite for CPL? The change in status quo is CONCACAF doing, not CPL. As a business who's losing money in the deal, makes no sense to say no to another group

Read my previous posts, I speculated why based on the most recent comments from Rollins regarding the current Fury - CPL relationship.

A lot of what the Fury doesn’t make sense from a business sense but they do it regardless. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Read my previous posts, I speculated why based on the most recent comments from Rollins regarding the current Fury - CPL relationship.

A lot of what the Fury doesn’t make sense from a business sense but they do it regardless. 

That's fair. If it isn't TD Place it will have to be elsewhere...

[Tigers]

5 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Actually looking at how well the Wolfpack are doing at Lamport Stadium in Toronto averaging about over 6000 since they started a few years ago and just about selling out Lamport that fits close to 10000 in their home opener a few days ago I’m thinking the Ottawa team will do well . If Toronto got a CPL team playing out of Lamport would it get the same attendance that the Wolfpack have been getting I don’t know tough to say. I think that Rugby with its big hits and no diving and faking angle can play right into the hands of hockey and the pointy ball loving public in Canada . So they can sell that angle to the general Canadian sports fans. I think Rugby will probably be in direct competition for the CPL and even the Canadian MLS team cutting into their fan bases of both soccer leagues. They can also sell the fact they have a chance of playing in the best league in the world while both the MLS and CPL are not .

 

4 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

On Sunday, TWP had 9500 at Lamport while at the same time the Arrows had under 3000 at York. So all this union will do better than league is total BS. Not really surprised either. As someone who had no interest in rugby until discovering rugby league, I feel rugby league is a more exciting sport to watch. 

A few things to note are that the Wolfpack are in their 3rd year of existence, vs the Arrows' first. TWP also joined an established league. 

Now, TWP did start with higher attendances from the start than the Arrows have, but we don't really have a comparison until the Arrows play at Lamport (they finish the second half of their home games at Lamport starting this Sunday). I'm not expecting 6k even then, since the Arrows, and MLR in general, is on a lower marketing, and general budget than TWP, who are far outspending everyone in every league they've been in to try to make it into Super League.

It's my opinion that a very large amount of TWP's early success is due to "any rugby is better than no rugby". To their credit, they've backed that up with a fantastic game day atmosphere and a winning team to keep that ball rolling. They got to the marketplace first, and that has huge value. 

Now, however, things are a bit different. As I should have better stated in my earlier comment, it's not that the Arrows in Toronto will have an attendance effect on a RL team in Ottawa, it's that MLR's existence as a going concern in North America has an effect on the rugby scene in general. There are some fairly big concerns about the sustainability of playing in a league across the ocean. Currently TWP have a sponsorship with Air Transat that pays for all their flights as well as visiting teams. Will that be indefinite? Will Ottawa, or the New York bid also applying to the RFL,  have that same luxury? Costs could be mitigated if teams coming to North America can play 2 or three games while here, but with a P/R system in place in rugby league those efficiencies would constantly be at risk. 

Then there's the "overseas league" aspect. On the one hand, Canadians are used to having the only team or few teams in a foreign league. But until now that has always been the USA. Does it continue to hold up when it's across the ocean? Or will more people enjoying having knowledge about their rival cities. MLR right now is in Austin, Houston, New Orleans, New York, San Diego, Seattle, Denver (Glendale which an independent enclave), and Salt Lake City, adding New England, DC, and Atlanta next year. All cities which the average sports fan is used to, and all "major league" cities, not Bethlehem or Shreveport. The RFL Championship this year is Batley, Barrow, Bradford, Dewsbury, Featherstone, Halifax (UK), Leigh, Rochdale, Sheffield, Swinton, Toulouse (France), Widnes, and York. Of those, I'd only ever heard of York and Sheffield before paying attention to rugby league. Of the Super League teams the only one with previously recognizable names to me are Leeds and London. That's not to say that there aren't fans who appreciate that smaller towns in England get into the big leagues, and like learning about them, but that isn't everybody and it's hard to look past the familiarity that the usual North American cities bring. We're here pumped about the CPL because it's all Canada and not shared with the US. This is one step removed, where I'm happy it's North America and not another continent.

Also trying to bring this into the neighbourhood of "on topic", the Arrows are as "by Canadians, for Canadians" as you can get. 33 out of 40 on the roster are Canadian, the majority from Ontario. They were born out of professionalizing the Ontario Blues provincial team, and therefore have the pretty much automatic support of Rugby Ontario, Rugby Canada, and all of the clubs. TWP had one Canadian who left for Canada 7's instead. This is now the pathway, ans well as a much larger base of potential long term support.

All of this to say that I think Eric Perez, the guy behind TWP and now Ottawa, has done a great sales job on his investors, but I seriously doubt the long-term prospects of pro rugby league in Canada or North America. The RFL seems to be fairly poorly run, opting for short term solutions that only end up hurting it. They tried to charge the Catalans Dragon half million pounds to enter the Challenge Cup this year, after having won it last year, out of worry about ticket sales. That isn't to say MLR doesn't have it's own issues, one or two teams could be gone in a couple years, but they seem much more long term focused. I think best-case for rugby is that Toronto and maybe New York manage to be sustainable to continue playing in England indefinitely, but in the long run domestic, CanAm rugby union will overtake that. 

 

(Back to your regularly scheduled soccer programming 😳 )

Edited May 2, 2019 by Tigers

[Macksam]

6 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

On Sunday, TWP had 9500 at Lamport while at the same time the Arrows had under 3000 at York. So all this union will do better than league is total BS. Not really surprised either. As someone who had no interest in rugby until discovering rugby league, I feel rugby league is a more exciting sport to watch. 

I imagine that's because we have more recent arrivals from the UK than South Africa.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Macksam

[Initial B]

https://twitter.com/24thminute/status/1129038328903413763

Sigh. Definitely personal now.

[Ansem]

23 minutes ago, Initial B said:

https://twitter.com/24thminute/status/1129038328903413763

Sigh. Definitely personal now.

For others benefits 

This is purely a business decision, I doubt it's personal. You just don't do business with people you don't trust are a 100% dedicated to your project. 

Fury leadership hasn't so far. Unless they work backstage to change the perception they have, CPL is fully justified to not wanting to deal with them

[Bison44]

So we are taking Rollins as gospel now?  Lets not whig out over every tweet or rumor.  

[Initial B]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

This is purely a business decision, I doubt it's personal. You just don't do business with people you don't trust are a 100% dedicated to your project. 

I would agree with you if I hadn't had interactions with both sides of the fence. I think at this point even if it makes business sense and the Fury beg and plead to join the CPL in the future, the CPL will not let them in as the organization is currently constructed.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Initial B

[Ansem]

29 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So we are taking Rollins as gospel now?  Lets not whig out over every tweet or rumor.  

Rollins or not, that's how business works

[Bison44]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Rollins or not, that's how business works

Business works by us all freakin out because Rollins says its a done deal between CPL and Fury ownership??  

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

Business works by us all freakin out because Rollins says its a done deal between CPL and Fury ownership??  

I didn't need his tweet to come to that conclusion. Been saying that for months. He's just tweeting/being told the obvious

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Rollins or not, that's how business works

 

[Ansem]

31 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I would agree with you if I hadn't had interactions with both sides of the fence. I think at this point even if it makes business sense and the Fury beg and plead to join the CPL in the future, the CPL will not let them in as the organization is currently constructed.

Comes down to what CONCACAF decides to do with them in the USL. 

[Ansem]

Don't hate the messenger 

 

[BuzzAndSting]

44 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Business works by us all freakin out because Rollins says its a done deal between CPL and Fury ownership??  

Who’s freaking out?

Rollins speculation on twitter is just more of the same. My reaction comes from the sheer volume of mounting speculation around the situation with no indication that anything is different than the current narrative. When added all together it seems like the probability that the speculation is accurate becomes larger and larger.

[Ams1984]

I’ve been saying for a while now that the Ottawa Fury have become toxic to Canadian soccer. I don’t want them in the CPL. I’d love for Ottawa to be in the CPL, but I want it to be a club that’s all in, not one that’s a reluctant date. I think that the league should find another date to the proverbial dance, and let Concacaf / the CSA deal with the Fury. I suspect that if a CPL club formed in Ottawa, the Fury would fold very shortly. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

I’ve been saying for a while now that the Ottawa Fury have become toxic to Canadian soccer. I don’t want them in the CPL. I’d love for Ottawa to be in the CPL, but I want it to be a club that’s all in, not one that’s a reluctant date. I think that the league should find another date to the proverbial dance, and let Concacaf / the CSA deal with the Fury. I suspect that if a CPL club formed in Ottawa, the Fury would fold very shortly. 

I wonder if this actually reverses the order.  There is still a fairly big question whether or not CONCACAF will sanction the Fury for continued participation in USL.  I find it hard to believe that the huge upheaval that occurred last year will be a one-time thing with no future repercussions.  If that happens, it sounds like OSEG would fold rather than join CPL.  That would leave a vacancy in Ottawa that could be filled if a suitable investor stepped forward.

Not saying that will come to pass - but I do think it is more likely than CPL seeking another club in the Ottawa area while the Fury are operating.  

[baulderdash77]

OSEG may very well sell the Fury club to the CPL or CPL ownership rather than fold.  At least a new ownership group would get the infrastructure and contracts of the existing team.

I still think there’s a deal to be made despite all the doom and gloom rhetoric.

[An Observer]

33 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

OSEG may very well sell the Fury club to the CPL or CPL ownership rather than fold.  At least a new ownership group would get the infrastructure and contracts of the existing team.

I still think there’s a deal to be made despite all the doom and gloom rhetoric.

I wonder what value the club is worth as it doesn’t have sanctioning guaranteed after this year in USL.  And likely only for another year or so maximum.  So I could see two scenarios for purchasing the club: (1) someone buying it at a knock down rate compared to a USL expansion fee in order to relocate it south of the border which wouldn’t be anyone interested in the CPL (although it would free up the market for CPL); or (2) someone buying the club to get access to the stadium in order to put a side in the CPL. I still am relatively unclear how much exclusivity and control Fury has over the lease for soccer at the stadium but if they have something that would be worth something.  The operations, players, and brand (although recently tarnished) of the club are worth something but that is significantly devalued by the fact the team does not have permanent access to a league but must apply for a waiver every year for the USL which seems to have a limited shelf life.  Any owner wishing to enter the CPL would still have to pay any expansion fee which significantly devalues anything the Fury could reasonably expect from a potential buyer. 

At the end of the day, any CPL potential owner will way up the cost of buying access to the stadium and the existing operations of the club versus starting from scratch in a pop up stadium and probably controlling the incidentals like food, beverage, parking and building with his/her own operations. So the Fury is worth something but for a CPL owner it’s only that maximum  

Moreover, The other alternative is to possibly wait for sanctioning to be withdrawn, the club to fold, the exclusivity on the staduim to expire and then to swoop in and pick up everything on the cheap.  If I was a potential owner, that is what I would do which likely means Ottawa being without a team for a year or two. Because of this possible scenario, any potential owner has way more bargaining power than the Fury. 

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

OSEG may very well sell the Fury club to the CPL or CPL ownership rather than fold.  At least a new ownership group would get the infrastructure and contracts of the existing team.

I still think there’s a deal to be made despite all the doom and gloom rhetoric.

Sale of the Fury, which would not happen, would only entail the obligation to pay existing contracts, the brand, the possible right to a USL franchise and a few soccer balls. 

There is no Fury infrastructure.

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, An Observer said:

I wonder what value the club is worth as it doesn’t have sanctioning guaranteed after this year in USL.  And likely only for another year or so maximum.  So I could see two scenarios for purchasing the club: (1) someone buying it at a knock down rate compared to a USL expansion fee in order to relocate it south of the border which wouldn’t be anyone interested in the CPL (although it would free up the market for CPL); or (2) someone buying the club to get access to the stadium in order to put a side in the CPL. I still am relatively unclear how much exclusivity and control Fury has over the lease for soccer at the stadium but if they have something that would be worth something.  The operations, players, and brand (although recently tarnished) of the club are worth something but that is significantly devalued by the fact the team does not have permanent access to a league but must apply for a waiver every year for the USL which seems to have a limited shelf life.  Any owner wishing to enter the CPL would still have to pay any expansion fee which significantly devalues anything the Fury could reasonably expect from a potential buyer. 

At the end of the day, any CPL potential owner will way up the cost of buying access to the stadium and the existing operations of the club versus starting from scratch in a pop up stadium and probably controlling the incidentals like food, beverage, parking and building with his/her own operations. So the Fury is worth something but for a CPL owner it’s only that maximum  

Moreover, The other alternative is to possibly wait for sanctioning to be withdrawn, the club to fold, the exclusivity on the staduim to expire and then to swoop in and pick up everything on the cheap.  If I was a potential owner, that is what I would do which likely means Ottawa being without a team for a year or two. Because of this possible scenario, any potential owner has way more bargaining power than the Fury. 

OSEG has the sole right to operate TD Place and surrounding area for another 20+ years. There is nothing obliging them to grant a lease to a CPL club, whether that be a new club or the Fury under new ownership.

And what do you mean “the operations” of the Fury? 

 

[An Observer]

9 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

OSEG has the sole right to operate TD Place and surrounding area for another 20+ years. There is nothing obliging them to grant a lease to a CPL club, whether that be a new club or the Fury under new ownership.

And what do you mean “the operations” of the Fury? 

 

So just to be clear (as i don’t know as there have been differing views on this on this board), you’re saying that OSEG has exclusivity over the whole stadium for 20+ years no matter whether they are actually using it or not.  So no one else can hire out the stadium for anything and only OSEG can use it?  

But as I said above, that is worth something and that is something they can sell but it’s limited in value as (1) it doesn’t give permanent access to a league which would have to be bought separately; and (2) if they look to charge too much for the lease or concessions, you can expect that any potential owner will not pay it if it makes the side uneconomical (and look as I said to build their own pop up where they control the concessions). So in a nutshell, OSEG would have to decide whether they wanted to get something in terms of a lease/concessions or nothing if they fold the club as they either don’t want to pay the entry fee to CPL or CPL doesn’t want them. 

The operations would be all or some of the assets of the club including the brand, management, players, etc. 

[dyslexic nam]

10 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

OSEG has the sole right to operate TD Place and surrounding area for another 20+ years. There is nothing obliging them to grant a lease to a CPL club, whether that be a new club or the Fury under new ownership.

And what do you mean “the operations” of the Fury? 

 

I get what you are saying, but no one would buy the Fury without securing access to TD Place from OSEG.  That would be included in any negotiation, as the Fury brand is worthless without it (not trying to bash the team - just pointing out that essentially buying a logo for a stadium-less team would never happen).  

[BuzzAndSting]

29 minutes ago, An Observer said:

So just to be clear (as i don’t know as there have been differing views on this on this board), you’re saying that OSEG has exclusivity over the whole stadium for 20+ years no matter whether they are actually using it or not.  So no one else can hire out the stadium for anything and only OSEG can use it? 

OSEG built and operates Lansdowne which includes TD Place, both the field where the RedBlacks and Fury play, the stadium where the 67s play and the retail/office space around the two. The land and stadiums belong to the city but OSEG has exclusive rights to operate both for 20+ years (can't remember the exact deal and how many years left, it was either 25 or 30 when signed). Essentially they control the facilities and land as if they owned it. They choose tenants and lease rates, hold festivals and exhibitions, etc... 

OSEG also owns the RedBlacks, 67s and Fury, who are probably prioritized in that order. So if they decide to sell the Fury what would they sell? All of the assets "owned" by the Fury are probably actually owned by a limited liability partnership controlled by OSEG. Same with the brand and of all it's marks, the contract obligations, whether that's players or technical staff and anything related to the soccer operations. All front office and stadium operations staff are either OSEG staff or under the employee of a contractor like Levy.

So what has value? The brand has some value but honestly very little, especially if the club isn't operating at TD Place and purchase of the Fury does not guarantee a lease at TD Place, that would have to be negotiated. All assets and equipment probably wouldn't amount to more than 6 figures. Contracts of players and staff have no value because a new owner would probably want to renegotiate those.

The only thing that seemingly has any value is the USL franchise but that's basically worthless in Canada because of the issues with CONCACAF. Therefore the only potential buyers would be US based which then means everything else, like the brand, have no value.

If I were interested in operating a team in Ottawa at TD Place, I would just wait out the Fury's death and then try to negotiate a lease. Or I'd look to build my own facility elsewhere. Either way I wouldn't be interested in buying the Fury.

[BuzzAndSting]

13 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I get what you are saying, but no one would buy the Fury without securing access to TD Place from OSEG.  That would be included in any negotiation, as the Fury brand is worthless without it (not trying to bash the team - just pointing out that essentially buying a logo for a stadium-less team would never happen).  

100%. And I'm sure OSEG built in covenants into the lease with the limited partnership which runs the Fury, which is controlled by OSEG, which allows them to terminate the lease at any time. 

If the Fury are in trouble and they're considering folding the club they would terminate the lease and then look to renegotiate with a new club.

I see a plausible scenario in which the Fury fold, a new group emerges with a CPL club and they negotiate a new lease with OSEG to play at TD Place.