Ottawa CPL Club

[BrennanFan]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What would make Canadian soccer stronger as a whole would be a spirit of compromise and consensus building rather than the scorched earth policy you describe.

They tried, discussions were ongoing for literally years.  At some point you gotta go to plan B. 

I for one feel much more confident about the CPL's chances for success knowing they are capable and willing to play hardball.

[WheatsheafSK]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I thin the point is that some team in Ottawa would help the CPL.  And insofar as the Fury didn't see that in their future, the options were to accept the loss of that market or take strong steps to ensure that the Fury or some other entity are participating in the league. 

As for your other comments about leagues failing, that issue has been discussed a lot on here.  The reality is that the context6 has changed substantially.  We have 3 MLS clubs demonstrating success in realtime.  We also have strong season ticket sales in most CPL markets, and a group of owners that seem to know what they are doing.  In short, I think the confidence that this time may be quite different is well justified.

 

Yes because Ottawa FC playing at Terry Fox was a real boom for the CSL.  Point is - just throwing a team into Ottawa does not equate to success. OSEG may not be perfect, but they have been a strong supporter of soccer in this city.  

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, WheatsheafSK said:

Yes because Ottawa FC playing at Terry Fox was a real boom for the CSL.  Point is - just throwing a team into Ottawa does not equate to success. OSEG may not be perfect, but they have been a strong supporter of soccer in this city.  

You know what helps CPL less?  Fury playing in a US D2 league.

[juicy sushi]

Just now, BrennanFan said:

I really dislike that view, that the Fury's skepticism was reasonable.  the CPL is the best and only answer for Canadian soccer.  If you love Canadian soccer, you take the risk and fight tooth and nail to make the CPL a success. 

At one point, people thought a Toronto MLS team would not draw more than the Toronto Lynx.  The CPL is a totally different product than the USL Fury and will serve a different crowd, just as the National Team brings a different soccer crowd to BMO field than TFC does. 

The city owns TD Place and the city will want another tenant there in addition to the Red Blacks. 

Hi,

Please don't take this as an attack, but none of what you've said are facts, they are only assertions.  You are saying that the CPL is that, but are not offering facts, only a no true Scotsman statement that it is a risk that must be taken.  And I fail to see how the CPL is really different from the USL.  They are both minor league (in budget and talent) soccer.  The locations of the teams are different, and the branding of the CPL has a patriotic twang to it, but they're still two teams of 11 guys kicking a ball around.

The City of Ottawa do own TD Place.  And they have a deal with OSEG to run the place.  OSEG have 3 teams there, and two of them do very well, in particular the CFL team which sells the place out.  I don't see how the City, who are interested in the revenue from the facility, not the CPL, are going to cheese off the guys making them money for the sake of the CPL or CSA.  OSEG have a very good, long relationship with the City.  Another CPL franchise, and the CSA do not.

If you dislike the argument that the Fury's skepticism was reasonable that's totally ok.  But you are offering a counter to it.  I was a fan of soccer when there was no professional soccer in Canada.  I can remember when the coverage consisted of someone on the radio possibly mentioning the Blizzard score and the Globe & Mail carrying the box scores for Rochester in the A-League.  I get that everyone here really wants things to be different.  I would like that, but I feel that given the history of soccer in Canada, the Fury have legitimate reasons to be skeptical, and I have not seen, anywhere, evidence on a scale that would convince me that they shouldn't be.  If someone has it, I'd love to see it (seriously, and I am not trying to troll, please sell it to me).

[juicy sushi]

Uh, I just noticed a colossal typo, but cannot find a way to edit the post.  Sorry everyone. 

[Cheeta]

Yeah, you reach a certain point where one party believes the status quo is the better answer for them and the other party believes endless negotiations maintaining that status quo serves no useful purpose for them.  That's when good old competitive capitalism gets to show its teeth and we find out who was right 

[SpursFlu]

Looks to me as if Ottawa's plan was to sit at the bottom of the MLS pyramid scheme and collect the crumbs falling off the table. Thus doing the MLS a big favour by continually muddying the Canadian soccer waters

[juicy sushi]

15 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I thin the point is that some team in Ottawa would help the CPL.  And insofar as the Fury didn't see that in their future, the options were to accept the loss of that market or take strong steps to ensure that the Fury or some other entity are participating in the league. 

As for your other comments about leagues failing, that issue has been discussed a lot on here.  The reality is that the context6 has changed substantially.  We have 3 MLS clubs demonstrating success in realtime.  We also have strong season ticket sales in most CPL markets, and a group of owners that seem to know what they are doing.  In short, I think the confidence that this time may be quite different is well justified.

 

Hi,

What context has changed?  3 MLS clubs do demonstrate that there is demand, but I don't think that alone demonstrates demand of the scale needed to make a league work in other Canadians markets.  There have always been fans.  Enough fans, willing to pay enough money, to make a league's worth of franchises viable paying professional wages and covering Canadian travel costs is something I haven't seen evidence of, personally.

[ray]

3 minutes ago, juicy sushi said:

Uh, I just noticed a colossal typo, but cannot find a way to edit the post.  Sorry everyone. 

Should be an "Edit" link next to the "Quote" link.

[WheatsheafSK]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

You know what helps CPL less?  Fury playing in a US D2 league.

You are right.  Killing a team that supports Canadian soccer players, and just giving a franchise to the city so that there is one in Ottawa and then see it die in a year would be the best move for CanPL and Canadian soccer. 

The point I keep making is that all the Fury haters on here make it sound like it is so easy to create a successful team in Ottawa.  It is not. I am firm believer that killing the Fury is no way to help the CanPL.

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, juicy sushi said:

Hi,

What context has changed?  3 MLS clubs do demonstrate that there is demand, but I don't think that alone demonstrates demand of the scale needed to make a league work in other Canadians markets.  There have always been fans.  Enough fans, willing to pay enough money, to make a league's worth of franchises viable paying professional wages and covering Canadian travel costs is something I haven't seen evidence of, personally.

Soccer is far more popular in Canada now than it was during the failed ventures you referenced.  TV numbers back this up.

The success of 3 MLS clubs shows that live footy is a sustainable draw here in Canada.  It may not demonstrate "the scale needed to make a league work" but it does show that teams van be sustained if the conditions are right.

I am not saying CPL is a slam dunk - just that there are positive conditions in place that did not exist during the failed ventures of the past.

 

 

[SpursFlu]

I actually havent seen evidence that travel costs are high. I also havent had anyone define what "high or too much" is. I would also say that revenue streams are a complete variable. The league could come out tomorrow and announce the league is now "Tim Hortons Canadian Premier League" and those supposed too high travel costs would suddenly not seem like much. The USL on the other hand is a completedead end for Ottawa. Whats their option for increased revenue? More bums in seats? Trickle down expansion fees? 

[dyslexic nam]

8 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

You are right.  Killing a team that supports Canadian soccer players, and just giving a franchise to the city so that there is one in Ottawa and then see it die in a year would be the best move for CanPL and Canadian soccer. 

The point I keep making is that all the Fury haters on here make it sound like it is so easy to create a successful team in Ottawa.  It is not. I am firm believer that killing the Fury is no way to help the CanPL.

First, and for the last time, I am not an Ottawa hater.  I want the Fury in CPL.  I have wanted this since the first time I heard  of it. Please stop acting like I am hoping your team withers and dies.

Second, I am not advocating killing the team and replacing it with some plastic club.  I have expressly posted, multiple times now, that I hope the Fury are in CPL starting in April and every year thereafter.

If you want to make some obtuse point about everyone trying to kill your team, stop quoting me and then acting like that is my position.  Or feel free to find a post where I have said the things you are attributing to me.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by dyslexic nam

[juicy sushi]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Soccer is far more popular in Canada now than it was during the failed ventures you referenced.  TV numbers back this up.

The success of 3 MLS clubs shows that live footy is a sustainable draw here in Canada.  It may not demonstrate "the scale needed to make a league work" but it does show that teams van be sustained if the conditions are right.

I am not saying CPL is a slam dunk - just that there are positive conditions in place that did not exist during the failed ventures of the past.

 

 

Ok, that's fair, and I can see the reasons people would feel optimism.  As a fan, I can see why people are excited.  I don't know that if I was trying to run a team I would feel the same way, but that's not my problem as I don't.

[Keegan]

36 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

You realize this contradicts your earlier assertion that this was all CONCACAF fault and no blame should be apportioned elsewhere?  Besides CSA sanctioned Fury to play in USL in 2019.  

Yes, because we assume they’ve cleverly sidestepped all culpability.  But you can’t prove that.  My point is that this day was coming whether you like it or not - whether the CSA did it or ultimately concacaf.  

[juicy sushi]

6 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I actually havent seen evidence that travel costs are high. I also havent had anyone define what "high or too much" is. I would also say that revenue streams are a complete variable. The league could come out tomorrow and announce the league is now "Tim Hortons Canadian Premier League" and those supposed too high travel costs would suddenly not seem like much. The USL on the other hand is a completedead end for Ottawa. Whats their option for increased revenue? More bums in seats? Trickle down expansion fees? 

Valid questions all. 

I guess the math would have to be revenue from gates and concessions vs. travel, salary and other costs.  If you have to fly a team out to away games, how much does it costs to fly 25(?) guys to 6 different places, that to me would be a reasonable guess at travel costs.  How much are players getting paid?  Assume a full squad at league minimum, plus all the other staff, and then however much it costs to rent/maintain facilities.  If your initial revenue isn't enough to break even, how many years of losses can you stomach until it is, and how can you grow that revenue?

That's all really boring stuff, but it is the question that needs to be answered if a Canadian Premier League is going to be a success.  Ottawa seem to feel that right now their USL math works for them.  I don't know if that means they're profitable, but it seems that the team is sustainable as it is.

[Ansem]

Whoever's giving advice to the Fury needs to be replaced. They are acting like they are TFC...

Ok, on board for a CPL ownership team in Ottawa

 

[SuperCanuck]

5 hours ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Complete dick move by CONCACAF. 

How would you describe the move by Ottawa Fury to string the C. Premier League along for a few months, build momentum and excitement, and then just before a climax of joining the league when everyone was expecting them to, they pulled out at the last minute?

Edited December 13, 2018 by SuperCanuck

[DrFitzpatrick]

16 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

They should be mad, but at the Fury’s owners for making a shit decision. And while I get what your saying about the MLS centralized franchise BS, this isn’t the same thing. It’s a sanctioning body, just the same as all clubs around the world are subject to in their various regions. Why should the Fury get special treatment now that there’s no more exceptional circumstance (the lack of a Canadian League) necessitating an exception?

I'm all for the Fury being forced into the CPL, but forgive my ignorance here, how does CONCACAF justify the hard nosed approach to Ottawa playing in a US league when we have 3 other Canadian MLS teams playing in a US league?

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

I'm all for the Fury being forced into the CPL, but forgive my ignorance here, how does CONCACAF justify the hard nosed approach to Ottawa playing in a US league when we have 3 other Canadian MLS teams playing in a US league?

The 3 MLS teams could argue that CPL is too low and not comparable.

The Fury can't argue that in regards to CPL to USL

[BrennanFan]

7 minutes ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

I'm all for the Fury being forced into the CPL, but forgive my ignorance here, how does CONCACAF justify the hard nosed approach to Ottawa playing in a US league when we have 3 other Canadian MLS teams playing in a US league?

The rule is that you can't play in a foreign league when an equivalent league exists in your own country. 

[juicy sushi]

31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Whoever's giving advice to the Fury needs to be replaced. They are acting like they are TFC...

Ok, on board for a CPL ownership team in Ottawa

 

Ok, while I may not agree with the sentiment, I can wholeheartedly agree that this kind of statement is positively moronic and does not help anything at all.  This is CONCACAFery all around.

[BrennanFan]

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/articles/canadian-premiere-league/concacaf-says-no-r59/

Duane Rollins' take on the mess.

[Cblake]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

It's similar to what happened in Hamilton. The city wanted to attract other teams (soccer) to the stadium because there was no soccer being played there. Tigers Cats had the same type of deal as OSEG on soccer operations. The CSA had to step in and declare that no team would be sanctioned except Forge.

That's where my assumption is coming from. If the Fury doesn't play at TD place, it frees up dates which the city who owns the stadium and collect rent will want to fill. 

This is an opportunity for CPL to pick an owner, award them a team and play at TD Place unless OSEG drop their legal fight and get in rank. This move effectively leaves the Fury with no where to play and if CPL doesn't take them in for 2019, then expect possibility that the league will pick someone else while provoking a void on OSEG clause on soccer operations at TD.

Cold move... but I kept saying it over and over... CPL ownership are businesse people who didn't became rich by being "nice". MLS wouldn't have done anything less than this

This is where I could see the CSA and CPL being at odds with each other on issues like this. Could the CSA tell the Fury to be nice, go join the CPL and all will be good while the CPL could be reluctant after all that has gone on. As you have mentioned in the past there is a difference between the bureaucracy of the CSA and the deep pocketed business types that make up the CPL leadership and you can not confuse the two. Can the CSA tell the CPL that the Fury will be joining the league and that is how it's going to be, I wonder regardless of a difference in payrolls? 

[SpursFlu]

Fury to me are showing their true colours. Basically their argument is.. you're making the MLS mad, dont do that. What does this have to do with the MLS? If MLS needs a place to loan their players just send them to another USL team. Its not like there isnt 75 of them

Edited December 13, 2018 by SpursFlu