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1 minute ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

Agreed.  Canadian law is what we must follow here.  I'm no lawyer but FIFA/Concacaf thinks its rules are not being followed even if things are forced by our nations laws, can they not take action?  Things like banning the teams and players from events like the world cup, gold cup, CCL ect.

National associations get banned sometimes for political interference but the sports dispute resolution mechanism that was set up under federal law is deliberately designed to be independent and viewed as at arm's length from the federal government so not sure they have that angle of attack open to them.

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54 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

I would hate to think where we would be without the 3 MLS teams and their academies.  Likely we would still have a team half-full  of unattached players and question marks on where the future players are coming from.  CMNT has a big mountain to climb to get to the WC and having three professional teams was never going to be a quick fix from where we were starting.

Also - it has only been 2 WC since we had three teams in the MLS.  Whitecaps and Impact were not in the MLS for the 2010 WC - let alone for the qualifying round.

Also also - not hilarious.  CPL existence and Canada's participation in 2026 are unrelated from a competitive qualifying perspective.  CPL players will not be helping Canada qualify for 2026 (assuming Canada is handed a spot).  Perhaps some CPL players could help CMNT qualify for 2022, but we are unlikely to see any real impact by the CPL on CMNT qualifying before the 2030 round.  So - again this puts us in line with the current MLS to WC example.  

As an add on I would also like to point out that it will have an affect on youth. By having a team in "their" City a youth may idolize some of the players/team and that may sway their mind from another sport. Similar to a duo national choosing Canada CPL may help a youth choose soccer over hockey. Hell if the CPL launched 20 years ago we could be discussing if Larin is in our starting 11 or Crosby or Toews over Osorio.

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8 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

National associations get banned sometimes for political interference but the sports dispute resolution mechanism that was set up under federal law is deliberately designed to be independent and viewed as at arm's length from the federal government so not sure they have that angle of attack open to them.

We are 3 months before the season starts, so I think if Concacaf, The Fury, and others are planning on digging in their heels on this issue, Fury fans better prepare for no football in 2019.

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8 minutes ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

We are 3 months before the season starts, so I think if Concacaf, The Fury, and others are planning on digging in their heels on this issue, Fury fans better prepare for no football in 2019.

...we'll find out soon enough. My guess and it's only that is that the behind the scenes letters from CONCACAF were never supposed to be made public and CONCACAF might fold now it's all out in the open, because it's not at all clear how they can reasonably target only the Fury on this when a D1 sanctioned league is involved. Also suspect this has been pushed to these bizarre extremes because Victor Montagliani will lose face and start to possibly even look like a dead man walking to some in reelection terms if he can't get his own national association to do what he would obviously want them to on the Fury and the CanPL.  

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3 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

If Concacaf has not received a formal sanctioning application, then they have not made a decision yet. Seems like Concacaf has only provided their opinion that they do not see exceptional circumstances via letters.

This is probably why the Fury has no reasons from Concacaf. There has been no formal decision yet. Therefore there is no decision to try to reverse at the FIFA Dispute Resolution Chamber or any other judicial body.

So the first step would be for the Fury and the CSA to apply for the sanction.  

It would be nice to know whether the Fury/CSA apply to Concacaf for sanctioning every year and when that decision usually takes place.  According to the CSA everything was on track as usual.  

Kindof pathetic that there is such a disconnect between the 3 parties.  

I agree. The Fury asks the CSA to apply for the sanction. Apologizing they are late, or however they want to do it. Asking for a special provision, considering as well that there are other teams pending a season's schedule, and that cancelling player contracts would constitute an employment discrimination. Then they play in USL for 2019, understanding, explicitly, that after next season they will not be able to. Allowing them time to reconsider their CPL options.

I perfectly understand that the Fury could go into litigation on this, as I don't agree with what the region has done. I understand it, even sympathise with the sentiment, since the Fury have deliberately sought to damage the reputation of the CPL (slagging it publicly, and lying about the reasons to not go in). But I don't think it makes sense to force their hand as that can never work. The club, as is, belongs to its owners and they can just close it. In fact, considering how little they listened to many of their own supporters, none of whom would have complained about a move to CPL (they accepted the NASL to USL move), they have shown they really do not care about soccer fans in Ottawa that much. So no point forcing them to close shop, because they'll do so without blinking an eye. 

Basically I am saying that let the pricks have their way for now. 

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10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

the Fury have deliberately sought to damage the reputation of the CPL (slagging it publicly, and lying about the reasons to not go in).

Source?

As far as I know, the Fury have never slagged the CPL publicly, nor lied about their reasoning to not join. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I've seen a ton of conjecture used as fact around here lately.

The Fury and CPL clearly don't see eye-to-eye on one or a number of issues. That doesn't make one side evil or morally reprehensible, it's just business.

Like most here I hope to see the parties resolve their issues so that the Fury can eventually join the CPL. I just don't see the need to further narratives that may or may not be true.

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13 minutes ago, RS said:

Source?

As far as I know, the Fury have never slagged the CPL publicly, nor lied about their reasoning to not join. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I've seen a ton of conjecture used as fact around here lately.

The Fury and CPL clearly don't see eye-to-eye on one or a number of issues. That doesn't make one side evil or morally reprehensible, it's just business.

Like most here I hope to see the parties resolve their issues so that the Fury can eventually join the CPL. I just don't see the need to further narratives that may or may not be true.

Fury is the club with primary responsibility for spreading hearsay about the CPL salary cap. As a way to justify their decision. Then they claimed they had long-term contracts in place and that they'd be damaged by a move to CPL, after which they dumped quite a few players themselves. To the point where as we stand they only have half a squad. Further, they have overstated their solidity in USL, where they've been only a few years--they recently changed leagues with out a fuss, but now make out like a change would be the end of the world. 

Then it turns out that they were making announcements about their continuity in USL when they had no sanctioning from US Soccer until this week. Which they apparently were hiding from followers, selling tickets, without having their sanctioning as the one foreign team in USL firmly in place.

For me, they are a not the most honest bunch, and are, as we stand, one of the major shit-disturbers in Canadian soccer. On top of that, whining like babies when they get their wrists slapped for their own incompetence. 

But as I say, for me it is still better to let them play in USL, have their season, keep their fans in place, and let the owners come around slowly and easily, without being forced, to CPL. 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
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16 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

In this CP piece, we finally get an idea of season ticket sales for the Fury: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-fury-usl-cpl-concacaf-1.4946137

 

"That's news to the Fury, who have already sold 1,500 season tickets and have signed a dozen players for next season."

This is of course, outrageous: they were selling tickets and signing players without being officially sanctioned by US Soccer to play in USL until this week? Really?

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20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This is of course, outrageous: they were selling tickets and signing players without being officially sanctioned by US Soccer to play in USL until this week? Really?

What’s crazy is that Fury fans do not seem to have a problem with the fact their club was selling them a product they weren’t even sure they could deliver.

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28 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

What’s crazy is that Fury fans do not seem to have a problem with the fact their club was selling them a product they weren’t even sure they could deliver.

How unacceptable that is remains unclear.

They have been receiving yearly exemptions to operate in US leagues since day one, as I understand it. And clearly, as we learn, the bureaucratic process of renewing the exemption is... lengthy to say the least.

That would mean that, assuming the timelines remain the same, the Fury would not have been able to sell tickets or sign players, every year, until the new year? Or that you can't offer contracts longer than one year? That seems unreasonable to me. I don't think any team could survive long-term in a market under those conditions.

There's a lot to be upset about with the Fury, but this seems way off the mark. And, as far as we know, the three MLS teams do exactly the same thing whenever their exemptions need to be renewed.

Edited by Sébastien
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39 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Fury is the club with primary responsibility for spreading hearsay about the CPL salary cap. As a way to justify their decision. Then they claimed they had long-term contracts in place and that they'd be damaged by a move to CPL, after which they dumped quite a few players themselves. To the point where as we stand they only have half a squad. Further, they have overstated their solidity in USL, where they've been only a few years--they recently changed leagues with out a fuss, but now make out like a change would be the end of the world. 

Then it turns out that they were making announcements about their continuity in USL when they had no sanctioning from US Soccer until this week. Which they apparently were hiding from followers, selling tickets, without having their sanctioning as the one foreign team in USL firmly in place.

For me, they are a not the most honest bunch, and are, as we stand, one of the major shit-disturbers in Canadian soccer. On top of that, whining like babies when they get their wrists slapped for their own incompetence. 

But as I say, for me it is still better to let them play in USL, have their season, keep their fans in place, and let the owners come around slowly and easily, without being forced, to CPL. 

With all this in mind, even though I am in Ottawa, I hope that they are able to stay in USL this year and that they get knocked out of the Canadian Championship by a CPL team

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I'd make the argument that OSEG and Co. were being willfully blind to what was coming from CONCACAF but it would be a bit harsh to burn 2019 because of that.  A one time exception isn't going to do no great harm in the big scheme of things. 

Don't know what the plan is for 2020 but it's pretty clear now where they won't be playing.  No more surprises there.

 

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Regardless of how this ends up playing out, the CPL teams now have a distinct advantage when it comes to signing Canadian players this winter.  The Fury are now the unstable team that may not exist next year.  CPL teams are revealing signings while the Fury are stuck in limbo.  The longer it drags out, the better for the CPL.  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Regardless of how this ends up playing out, the CPL teams now have a distinct advantage when it comes to signing Canadian players this winter.  The Fury are now the unstable team that may not exist next year.  CPL teams are revealing signings while the Fury are stuck in limbo.  The longer it drags out, the better for the CPL.  

The irony of this is the fact that it is only true because the Fury chose to cut a sizeable portion of its Canadian core from the squad before all the recent fallout.  A few months ago they were ideally positioned to be the centrepiece of the league in terms of showcasing Canadians. and quite possibly its first Champion.

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32 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

How unacceptable that is remains unclear.

They have been receiving yearly exemptions to operate in US leagues since day one, as I understand it. And clearly, as we learn, the bureaucratic process of renewing the exemption is... lengthy to say the least.

That would mean that, assuming the timelines remain the same, the Fury would not have been able to sell tickets or sign players, every year, until the new year? Or that you can't offer contracts longer than one year? That seems unreasonable to me. I don't think any team could survive long-term in a market under those conditions.

There's a lot to be upset about with the Fury, but this seems way off the mark. And, as far as we know, the three MLS teams do exactly the same thing whenever their exemptions need to be renewed.

They way I see it, and this is one of many reasons I’m not buying any Fury tickets next season, is the Fury could have sold tickets without mentioning the USL. Which they haven’t, they been actively promoting the upcoming season in USL which we now know was far from guaranteed especially when you consider Tony Marinaro’s quotes. They could have done their due delligence and approached CONCACAF months ago to get a better idea of where they stood and then planned accordingly. OSEG has now trotted out JdG, AJ Jakubec and Mark Goudie and the company line is “We’re stunned, we had no idea this could have happened” which is proving not to be the case. Goudie said they wouldn’t be playing in the CPL next season or in 2020 so without the exception from CONCACAF they new they may not play at all yet still went ahead and sold tickets. Either they gambled with their future and lost or they’re negligent in poor business practices.

In terms of the player contracts, none of these deals are guaranteed, you could sign anyone and cut them tomorrow with no repercussions. Or you work in language that allows for an out if the team isn’t actually competing in USL.

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23 hours ago, Ansem said:

Another person went even further, suggesting that the Fury might have “half wanted (to be denied sanctioning).” The suggestion being that OSEG doesn’t really want to be involved in soccer anymore, but didn’t want to be the bad guy in fans’ eyes, least it hurt them with RedBlacks’ ticket sales.

How much you want to bet we find out that all those three-year contracts they signed have an out clause if they don't get to play in the USL?
 

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51 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

I'd make the argument that OSEG and Co. were being willfully blind to what was coming from CONCACAF but it would be a bit harsh to burn 2019 because of that.  A one time exception isn't going to do no great harm in the big scheme of things. 

Don't know what the plan is for 2020 but it's pretty clear now where they won't be playing.  No more surprises there.

 

That’s exactly what they were doing it seems.  OSEG tried to bully CONCACAF first - they thought they would just drag this on to the last minute and then pull the old “oops! But it’s too late to not sanction us, sorry!” Routine. 

MLS/USL need to learn they’re not the NHL/AHL where they can bully a whole sport.  

And now CONCACAF is saying “no, like we're serious, you’re not getting sanctioned as we said” and Ottawa is going full victim mode as if it’s the craziest thing ever.

The question continues to be why?  I have a pretty damn good theory I thought of over lunch that takes the Ottawa colluding with “elites” one step further.

With TFC II in div 3 were they going to get another influx of “free” players in addition to their MTL loans?  (I.e Okello, Daniels etc.). Was that the reason they cut most of their team?  Think about it... they would only have to pay half their roster and keep playing this game claiming their salaries are higher than CPL when really they’re not paying and using MLS numbers.  The MLS teams win because they get a 2nd division feeder and AVOID dealing with CPL altogether - Which one has to assume is a MLS mandate.  MLS can undercut CPL, have a cheap feeder club and constantly keep this fallacy going that even USL is a step up from CPL.  Ottawa increases their margins and plays the “sugar baby”.

That would be a pretty sweet deal for Ottawa, the Canadian MLS teams and MLS overall.  These MLS teams don’t want their players playing for Forge, York etc. because it’ll look like an endorsement and they don’t want them in D2 USL because it’s too low.  Just my thoughts on how I would handle this “war” if I was MLS. 

The irony in my mind is that if my theory on the loans is correct, Ottawa would have to actually pay more salary for lower quality in CPL.  Now does it make sense why they’re going kicking and screaming? 

Edited by Keegan
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On 8/31/2018 at 7:42 PM, Ansem said:

I'm sure they can keep their roster as long as it abides by the league's rules. 

 

On 8/31/2018 at 7:42 PM, Ansem said:

I'm sure they can keep their roster as long as it abides by the league's rules. 

I do wonder if the CSA would tell the CPL that Ottawa will be playing in the league and don't make an issue of the contracts, I mean we all know some CPL teams will want to spend more than others. The USL does not have a cap, I would be more concerned with a salary floor to make sure you don't end up with a glorified semi-pro team setup in or two the league? 

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3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

That’s exactly what they were doing it seems.  OSEG tried to bully CONCACAF first - they thought they would just drag this on to the last minute and then pull the old “oops! But it’s too late to not sanction us, sorry!” Routine. 

MLS/USL need to learn they’re not the NHL/AHL where they can bully a whole sport.  

And now CONCACAF is saying “no, like we're serious, you’re not getting sanctioned as we said” and Ottawa is going full victim mode as if it’s the craziest thing ever.

The question continues to be why?  I have a pretty damn good theory I thought of over lunch that takes the Ottawa colluding with “elites” one step further.

With TFC II in div 3 were they going to get another influx of “free” players in addition to their MTL loans?  (I.e Okello, Daniels etc.). Was that the reason they cut most of their team?  Think about it... they would only have to pay half their roster and keep playing this game claiming their salaries are higher than CPL when really they’re not paying and using MLS numbers.  The MLS teams win because they get a 2nd division feeder and AVOID dealing with CPL altogether - Which one has to assume is a MLS mandate.  MLS can undercut CPL, have a cheap feeder club and constantly keep this fallacy going that even USL is a step up from CPL.  Ottawa increases their margins and plays the “sugar baby”.

That would be a pretty sweet deal for Ottawa and makes sense..

 

But it makes you wonder why Basketball Canada don't not come out and say we don't need two basketball leagues as this country currently does. Why not just sanction one which would be better for the game in the long term, am I right? 

Football/Soccer has too buracecy in my eyes, I personally don't think to at least 80% of those that attend Fury games, the league's really matter all that much, it's a cheap afternoon of entertainment out, as it is for a lot of cases in minor league sports.

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8 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I have a pretty damn good theory I thought of over lunch that takes the Ottawa colluding with “elites” one step further.

With TFC II in div 3 were they going to get another influx of “free” players in addition to their MTL loans?  (I.e Okello, Daniels etc.). Was that the reason they cut most of their team?  Think about it... they would only have to pay half their roster and keep playing this game claiming their salaries are higher than CPL when really they’re not paying and using MLS numbers.  The MLS teams win because they get a 2nd division feeder and AVOID dealing with CPL altogether - Which one has to assume is a MLS mandate.  MLS can undercut CPL, have a cheap feeder club and constantly keep this fallacy going that even USL is a step up from CPL.  Ottawa increases their margins and plays the “sugar baby”.

That would be a pretty sweet deal for Ottawa, the Canadian MLS teams and MLS overall.  

The crazy thing is that it isn't all that crazy.  And throw in the fact that we know the MLS teams are now lobbying on behalf of the Fury (thanks Jakubec, from a messageboard moron) and it does seem like a pretty plausible explanation.

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The best is reading on twitter people saying “how will this effect Fury’s growth?”...

What delusional world are people living in?  Are you getting promoted? Are you going to the Champions League?  You’re being sold a lie by a corporation and it has nothing to do with developing soccer.  In the future players are going to choose between CPL and MLS because those are the levels where you can grow and take on the highest competition... Ottawa’s top competition will come in the voyageurs cup forever and always.  Where are you guys growing?  The fans are being brainwashed to thrive for mediocrity.  “We demand to be a feeder club forever!  It’s our right!” 

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3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

But it makes you wonder why Basketball Canada don't not come out and say we don't need two basketball leagues as this country currently does. Why not just sanction one which would be better for the game in the long term, am I right? 

Football/Soccer has too buracecy in my eyes, I personally don't think to at least 80% of those that attend Fury games, the league's really matter all that much, it's a cheap afternoon of entertainment out, as it is for a lot of cases in minor league sports.

The pro basketball leagues in this country are extremely low on the pro sports scale, and are quite regional.  I suspect at this point, Basketball Canada is just happy to have some sort of pro league presence in the country and have little interest in forcing a merger.  There is also no FIFA-like organization that imposes consistent rules among basketball leagues into an organized, tiered structure as is done in footy.  In short, the case of the Fury playing in a US league has very little in common with the small pro basketball leagues fighting for survival here in Canada.

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1 minute ago, Keegan said:

The best is reading on twitter people saying “how will this effect Fury’s growth?”...

What delusional world are people living in?  Are you getting promoted? Are you going to the Champions League?  You’re being sold a lie by a corporation and it has nothing to do with developing soccer.  In the future players are going to choose between CPL and MLS because those are the levels where you can grow and take on the highest competition... Ottawa’s top competition will come in the voyageurs cup forever and always.  Where are you guys growing?  The fans are being brainwashed to thrive for mediocrity.  “We demand to be a feeder club forever!  It’s our right!” 

But what happens if  as you said Ottawa could be working with TFC etc to get free players , the same thing could happen with The Reds and York 9? They could help out their old friend in Jimmy B with a handful of loans ie Daniels, Dunn, Hundal etc if they want them playing at a high level than the new USL D3 league where TFC2 is playing this year.

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