Ottawa CPL Club

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Having MLS teams in Canada will be a benefit to Canadian soccer in the long run.

Since 2007, 3 world cup later... where did it get us?

Hilarious that Canada will most likely participate during the CPL existence ?

[juicy sushi]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

So CPL could grow because of the World Cup but MLS can't, huh? MLS will grow leaps and bounds before CPL is a stable league, and the CPL will never be able to compete with MLS. It is what it is and ours to support. Having MLS teams in Canada will be a benefit to Canadian soccer in the long run.

Who knows maybe there'll be a super league on every continent in the future, and national leagues relegated to the development of players.

It’s a matter of scale and space to grow.  How would TFC suddenly double their revenue?  This argument relies on the assertion that post-World Cup, magically a large number of people are going to suddenly start wanting to pay TFC more money than current fans to watch their games.  

Could some people suddenly become fans due to the World Cup?  Sure.  100% more? I find no evidence of that.  Toronto is a mature market, they’ve had plenty of time to get the word out.  

[Mikmacdo]

MLS has a salary cap and cheap owners who dont want to spend more money so good luck with that 40 million dollar number, there was even rumours of the MLS getting rid of the third DP spot. 

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Prune_55 said:

Dude - TFC's payroll this year will be $28m US and growing. After our World Cup it will be between $40m to $50m - that's because of the exploding TV, Radio, Digital, Sponsorship and Ticket Revenue in big American cities as its all shared with Toronto.  When MLS expansion is done they will have 36 D1 clubs minimum so unless Canada's population is 'upgraded' by about 250m people there's not a chance TFC ever moves. 

Attendance was down this year, the TV ratings still suck and seriously, radio? Lol

[dyslexic nam]

This is all waaaay out in left field anyway.  This isn't about the movement of our MLS teams and that isn't on the table.  CPL won't be a comparable league for a long time - and possibly never - and the whole issue of  desanctioning is predicated on the idea that conditions in the domestic league would eliminate the "exceptional circumstances"rationale.  That is very unlikely to happen between MLS and CPL anytime soon.

[zen]

51 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Since 2007, 3 world cup later... where did it get us?

Hilarious that Canada will most likely participate during the CPL existence ?

It has given us 3 academies that invest in players. Most may not be good enough to make the jump right away and will no doubt end up in the CPL. So tell me how it has not helped us. The best has yet to come for MLS, it has been slow growth, but its growth none the less.

Not really hilarious, no.

[zen]

1 hour ago, juicy sushi said:

It’s a matter of scale and space to grow.  How would TFC suddenly double their revenue?  This argument relies on the assertion that post-World Cup, magically a large number of people are going to suddenly start wanting to pay TFC more money than current fans to watch their games.  

Could some people suddenly become fans due to the World Cup?  Sure.  100% more? I find no evidence of that.  Toronto is a mature market, they’ve had plenty of time to get the word out.  

Oh absolutely, when you're big growth can still occur obviously just not as fast. I'm not trying to quantify it, I think that would be silly.

I think you said you're from Ottawa earlier, so maybe your perception of the market is different. I don't think Toronto as a soccer market is all that mature. Sure, there are a lot of people that love the sport in the city but many more that are just casual sports fans who don't really follow soccer. Of the people that are soccer fans TV access to European leagues often mean those teams come first sadly because let's face it the level of the large clubs in Europe is much better. To them, MLS is not yet legitimate and that's mainly due to the quality. MLS has to and will do more to improve the level of play over the next decade, and I can see it slowly creeping into the mainstream in the city as more and more people see the league as a major league. I can't speak for American cities, but I suspect among soccer fans there this is true as well.

CPL will have the same issue, hopefully it can benefit from the World Cup and the work the MLS teams have been putting in to try to grow the sport. Hopefully the CPL will start to do the same by investing in youth academies etc and in turn build grassroots support in their communities. But it will be a long process. Sure the World Cup can give it a nice boost but that's not to say it will ever catch up to MLS. I honestly don't see anything wrong with that as long as it aspires to be the best it can.

Edited December 14, 2018 by zen

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, juicy sushi said:

It’s a matter of scale and space to grow.  How would TFC suddenly double their revenue?  This argument relies on the assertion that post-World Cup, magically a large number of people are going to suddenly start wanting to pay TFC more money than current fans to watch their games.  

Could some people suddenly become fans due to the World Cup?  Sure.  100% more? I find no evidence of that.  Toronto is a mature market, they’ve had plenty of time to get the word out.  

Look at pointy football or a league like EPL? Where does the money come from? Not from asses in seats, its broadcasting rights, TV deals.A couple years ago the NFL teams split 6billion dollars from TV.  I saw a article that said EPL a few years back made more than twice the money on broadcasting than matchday revenue.  If another world cup in the USA can stimulate some sort of increase in broadcasting revenue for MLS, TFC could grow their revenue by quite a bit.  In 2014 MLS TV rights tripled to 90 million and all the crazy DP, GAM, TAM, BS we see now.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

The Concacaf press release makes both the Fury and the CSA look foolish. And I was hearing Victor speak it as I read it. 

As for the Fury, I agree.They apparently ignored reminders to request sanctioning.  Very negligent.  

But how so the CSA? Are you interpreting that Victor is taking a shot at CSA inaction?

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, zen said:

MLS will grow leaps and bounds before CPL is a stable league, and the CPL will never be able to compete with MLS. 

The day a CPL club eliminates an MLS side from the Voyageurs Cup will you admit they're competing?

There are plenty of cup precedents to see it happening sooner rather than later.

In any case if you think going from nothing to about 5000 in stands in 7 cities is less relative growth than MLS will see in the next 1000 years then you never passed math. It's mathematically insurmountable. CPL is growing in leaps and bounds before our eyes. As for stability, we see MLS franchises close and fail every few years, while others falter. It's less stable than any other sport league in North America. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...Are you interpreting that Victor is taking a shot at CSA inaction?

https://the11.ca/concacafs-attempt-to-clarify-the-fury-situation-only-serves-to-muddy-the-waters/

In the fall of 2018, after unilateral public statements made by Ottawa Fury and before any sanctioning application was made to any governing body, Concacaf clearly advised the Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) of its concerns regarding this matter. A further written correspondence to the CSA followed in November, providing guidance on our view that as it stands to date, we do not see exceptional circumstances, given the launch of the Canadian Premier League (CPL) for the 2019 season.

Think CONCACAF are very much being critical of the CSA in that press release. That reads like Victor Montagliani was signalling loud and clear that he wanted the CSA to reject the sanctioning after the Fury decided not to participate in his favoured pet project. Now we'll see if CONCACAF blink first when legal proceedings may be on the horizon with them in the crosshairs rather than the CSA. The press release is phrased in a way that gives them an escape route by emphasizing that they have yet to receive the actual paperwork.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

https://the11.ca/concacafs-attempt-to-clarify-the-fury-situation-only-serves-to-muddy-the-waters/

In the fall of 2018, after unilateral public statements made by Ottawa Fury and before any sanctioning application was made to any governing body, Concacaf clearly advised the Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) of its concerns regarding this matter. A further written correspondence to the CSA followed in November, providing guidance on our view that as it stands to date, we do not see exceptional circumstances, given the launch of the Canadian Premier League (CPL) for the 2019 season.

Think CONCACAF are very much being critical of the CSA in that press release. That reads like Victor Montagliani was signalling loud and clear that he wanted the CSA to reject the sanctioning after the Fury decided not to participate in his favoured pet project. Now we'll see if CONCACAF blink first when legal proceedings may be on the horizon with them in the crosshairs rather than the CSA. The press release is phrased in a way that gives them an escape route by emphasizing that they have yet to receive the actual paperwork.

So it could be that the CSA has been black balling Fury. Or that Fury has ignored the CSA. Or that there is de facto collusion between the CSA and Concacaf.  I feel we are still missing some pieces. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The CSA are known to have approved the sanctioning for 2019 as did the USSF recently apparently when the paperwork was passed onto them. So the Fury, CSA and USSF have all ignored CONCACAF, if these warnings were in fact sent.

https://ottawasun.com/sports/soccer/fury-fc-considering-all-its-options-after-shocking-concacaf-ruling-threatens-season

...There is a window, according to Pugh, for clubs to get their sanctions in order, and the Fury were first approved by Canada Soccer to continue in the USL, then just Tuesday by U.S. Soccer.

Then, out of nowhere, came the hammer from CONCACAF, going against two of its members.

Pugh said the Fury are looking at the avenues of appeal to FIFA, the world’s ultimate governing body.

He said the club has to make a decision on what course of action to take almost immediately.

“It’s not only affecting us,” said Pugh, reiterating that legal channels are being explored. “It’s affecting the other 35 teams as well...

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[juicy sushi]

6 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Look at pointy football or a league like EPL? Where does the money come from? Not from asses in seats, its broadcasting rights, TV deals.A couple years ago the NFL teams split 6billion dollars from TV.  I saw a article that said EPL a few years back made more than twice the money on broadcasting than matchday revenue.  If another world cup in the USA can stimulate some sort of increase in broadcasting revenue for MLS, TFC could grow their revenue by quite a bit.  In 2014 MLS TV rights tripled to 90 million and all the crazy DP, GAM, TAM, BS we see now.  

TV rights are also a bit of a bubble with future deals unlikely to grow like previous ones, and you also need the product to have enough demand to justify the price tag.  Are MLS ratings growing enough someone will be twice what MLS gets now? I don’t think that’s the case. 

[juicy sushi]

6 hours ago, zen said:

Oh absolutely, when you're big growth can still occur obviously just not as fast. I'm not trying to quantify it, I think that would be silly.

I think you said you're from Ottawa earlier, so maybe your perception of the market is different. I don't think Toronto as a soccer market is all that mature. Sure, there are a lot of people that love the sport in the city but many more that are just casual sports fans who don't really follow soccer. Of the people that are soccer fans TV access to European leagues often mean those teams come first sadly because let's face it the level of the large clubs in Europe is much better. To them, MLS is not yet legitimate and that's mainly due to the quality. MLS has to and will do more to improve the level of play over the next decade, and I can see it slowly creeping into the mainstream in the city as more and more people see the league as a major league. I can't speak for American cities, but I suspect among soccer fans there this is true as well.

CPL will have the same issue, hopefully it can benefit from the World Cup and the work the MLS teams have been putting in to try to grow the sport. Hopefully the CPL will start to do the same by investing in youth academies etc and in turn build grassroots support in their communities. But it will be a long process. Sure the World Cup can give it a nice boost but that's not to say it will ever catch up to MLS. I honestly don't see anything wrong with that as long as it aspires to be the best it can.

I live in Ottawa now, but I grew up in the GTA and my extended family still live there.  I don’t think the gap between MLS and Europe is going to close enough to change the minds of those fans by 2026.  Or in most cases, ever.  My Dad isn’t going to stop loving Spurs and start liking TFC.  The emotional bond isn’t there for TFC, but the knowledge that TFC is MLSE on grass is.  

Future generations may be different, but that will take a much longer time scale as current fans die off and are replaced. 

[Cheeta]

Great fun.

Things being what they are we are of course viewing this in our current context but this decision by CONCACAF has way, way, more to do with killing something else before it breeds than being the bad cop for the CPL/CSA.  That's the way it feels to me anyway.    CONCACAF is trying to kill a Pan Central American club league before it gets off the ground or maybe something even bigger, don't know.  But this policy is about 1% about USL teams competing in Canada.  Ottawa is just  collateral damage. 

And again, from the aspect of USL's dead-end future in Canada the good folks around the Fury get to have their 2 minutes hate and then need to look around and get on with things, or not.  Because none of this is happening in a vacuum.  There is going to be a CPL team in Ottawa.  It'll be the Fury or someone else.  

     

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Cheeta

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As for the Fury, I agree.They apparently ignored reminders to request sanctioning.  Very negligent.  

But how so the CSA? Are you interpreting that Victor is taking a shot at CSA inaction?

Basically yes - that bit about "We told the CSA this in the fall and then again in November" makes it seem like the CSA knew this by October (if not late September, given "Fall" begins Sept. 21st) and Concacaf is querying why this is only coming out now in December (or why the CSA didn't tell Ottawa much earlier).

Who knows, maybe the CSA told Ottawa much earlier but they didn't believe it or take it seriously. In any event, I'm not seeing much of a legal leg for Ottawa to stand on to play in USL given what we know now of the process for sanctioning.

[BrennanFan]

If Concacaf has not received a formal sanctioning application, then they have not made a decision yet. Seems like Concacaf has only provided their opinion that they do not see exceptional circumstances via letters.

This is probably why the Fury has no reasons from Concacaf. There has been no formal decision yet. Therefore there is no decision to try to reverse at the FIFA Dispute Resolution Chamber or any other judicial body.

So the first step would be for the Fury and the CSA to apply for the sanction.  

It would be nice to know whether the Fury/CSA apply to Concacaf for sanctioning every year and when that decision usually takes place.  According to the CSA everything was on track as usual.  

Kindof pathetic that there is such a disconnect between the 3 parties.  

Edited December 14, 2018 by BrennanFan

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Cheeta said:

Things being what they are we are of course viewing this in our current context but this decision by CONCACAF has way, way, more to do with killing something else before it breeds than being the bad cop for the CPL/CSA.  That's the way it feels to me anyway.    CONCACAF is trying to kill a Pan Central American club league before it gets off the ground or maybe something even bigger, don't know.  But this policy is about 1% about USL teams competing in Canada.  Ottawa is just  collateral damage.

This my take on it as well - and also may explain the rather sudden timing.  Every exception they allow (including a one year extension, when the equivalent domestic league will be in place for the coming season) might weaken their stance that they do not permit this sort of thing.  They have already established that they will allow it under exceptional circumstances - allowing further erosion of the rule essentially because it is bad timing would not help them fight the big battles that may come. 

[zen]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The day a CPL club eliminates an MLS side from the Voyageurs Cup will you admit they're competing?

There are plenty of cup precedents to see it happening sooner rather than later.

In any case if you think going from nothing to about 5000 in stands in 7 cities is less relative growth than MLS will see in the next 1000 years then you never passed math. It's mathematically insurmountable. CPL is growing in leaps and bounds before our eyes. As for stability, we see MLS franchises close and fail every few years, while others falter. It's less stable than any other sport league in North America. 

You misunderstood my use of the word competing, try again lol.

In terms of growth percentage CPL will be higher, especially next year. A 20% increase of a small number, can be smaller increase than a 5% increase of a large number in real terms. Starting out with 4-5000 tickets is awesome, but there's will need to be work done to maintain and grow that.

In the past 10 years 1 franchise was shut team was shut down by the league and then reopened with a successfully with a new ownership group, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'm not sure why you need to resort to insults to make a point, maybe you feel the need to prove that you're smarter than other people. You've clearly misconstrued what I've said. On a forum that can happen, I'm willing and then taken it upon yourself to insult me. I'll overlook it for now, if you can stop acting like a child.

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

You misunderstood my use of the word competing, try again lol.

In terms of growth percentage CPL will be higher, especially next year. A 20% increase of a small number, can be smaller increase than a 5% increase of a large number in real terms. Starting out with 4-5000 tickets is awesome, but there's will need to be work done to maintain and grow that.

In the past 10 years 1 franchise was shut team was shut down by the league and then reopened with a successfully with a new ownership group, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'm not sure why you need to resort to insults to make a point, maybe you feel the need to prove that you're smarter than other people. You've clearly misconstrued what I've said. On a forum that can happen, I'm willing and then taken it upon yourself to insult me. I'll overlook it for now, if you can stop acting like a child.

So you are ruling out games between one team and another as competition? Look, Im not the one making things up as I go along. If you can't deal with it just ignore me.  Or don't make inane posts.

CPL is in the midst of astronomical growth and no teams have failed or faltered. You are a slagging it with no mathematical,  logical or respectful justification whatsoever.  And on a CPL thread. So you're fair game. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[WheatsheafSK]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

Since 2007, 3 world cup later... where did it get us?

Hilarious that Canada will most likely participate during the CPL existence ?

I would hate to think where we would be without the 3 MLS teams and their academies.  Likely we would still have a team half-full  of unattached players and question marks on where the future players are coming from.  CMNT has a big mountain to climb to get to the WC and having three professional teams was never going to be a quick fix from where we were starting.

Also - it has only been 2 WC since we had three teams in the MLS.  Whitecaps and Impact were not in the MLS for the 2010 WC - let alone for the qualifying round.

Also also - not hilarious.  CPL existence and Canada's participation in 2026 are unrelated from a competitive qualifying perspective.  CPL players will not be helping Canada qualify for 2026 (assuming Canada is handed a spot).  Perhaps some CPL players could help CMNT qualify for 2022, but we are unlikely to see any real impact by the CPL on CMNT qualifying before the 2030 round.  So - again this puts us in line with the current MLS to WC example.  

Edited December 14, 2018 by WheatsheafSK

[DrFitzpatrick]

19 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not how it tends to work in practice. The federal government has legislated in this area so there is a dispute resolution mechanism that can be used that is binding on both parties.

Agreed.  Canadian law is what we must follow here.  I'm no lawyer but FIFA/Concacaf thinks its rules are not being followed even if things are forced by our nations laws, can they not take action?  Things like banning the teams and players from events like the world cup, gold cup, CCL ect.

[juicy sushi]

Just now, DrFitzpatrick said:

Agreed.  Canadian law is what we must follow here.  I'm no lawyer but FIFA/Concacaf thinks its rules are not being followed even if things are forced by our nations laws, can they not take action?  Things like banning the teams and players from events like the world cup, gold cup, CCL ect.

They tried that with an African country recently when its government attempted to reform their FA over corruption issues. 

[zen]

51 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So you are ruling out games between one team and another as competition? Look, Im not the one making things up as I go along. If you can't deal with it just ignore me.  Or don't make inane posts.

CPL is in the midst of astronomical growth and no teams have failed or faltered. You are a slagging it with no mathematical,  logical or respectful justification whatsoever.  And on a CPL thread. So you're fair game. 

I just said you are understanding the word compete to mean something different than the way I used it initially. If you go back and re-read the post you will see I am not talking about the teams playing each other, I'm talking about financial clout. I fully expect CPL team to be able to pull off upsets against MLS teams, it's the nature of the sport.

I haven't made anything up along the way either, point out to me one thing I have made up that I have presented as fact rather opinion.

You are using "data" before the league has even started to justify saying it has experienced astronomical growth, THAT is inane.

I'm not saying any of that is going to falter either. On the contrary, I think CPL will be successful in finding it's niche, I just hope it has wider appeal than and at a higher level than BringBackTheBlizzard expects it to be. I am hopeful about it but am tempering my expectation that it will one day be able to compete financially with MLS, imho that's not possible. That does not mean it cannot achieve it's goals and be successful in that regard. Imo, people that believe this are deluding themselves.

If you can't understand the difference between facts and opinion, and learn to how have proper civil discourse, perhaps you should go back to school cause clearly you missed a lot along the way.