CPL General

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 11/18/2023 at 1:53 AM, red card said:

 

MLS 1.0 floundered by catering first to casuals/soccer moms. This segment don't attend enough matches, buy enough beer and buy a jersey every year to move the revenue needle.

And to compound the problem, catering to casuals turned off MLS' core audience. It's when they got rid of non-FIFA rules and focused on existing football fans especially in the Hispanic community that MLS 2.0 emerged.

TFC provided the blueprint in 2007 as their main marketing thrust was on second gen Canadians who grew up with the sport via their parents native country leagues or via the Premier League. They bought the Euro/Latin style football atmosphere that was missing during MLS 1.0 and this brought in any casuals.

 

 

Good analysis, but finish the storyline for us will you? Seriously asking. The last 15 years or so?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If the OFC, AFC, and FIFA sign off on this:

Hopefully we'll hear no more about FIFA forcing the three Canadian MLS teams into CanPL. If that's what you want make a rational case for it rather than pretending it's something FIFA are going to mandate at some future point. The reality is that, although it's not particularly likely, if somebody in Alberta dangled enough cash in front of MLS, the USSF, the CSA, CONCACAF and FIFA...

[BearcatSA]

Interesting chap:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12213699/amp/Bill-Foleys-grand-plan-Bournemouth-no-surprise.html

[kacbru]

Wellington already has an A-league team.  Auckland has had one in the past.  What's the point here?

[Ansem]

14 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If the OFC, AFC, and FIFA sign off on this:

Hopefully we'll hear no more about FIFA forcing the three Canadian MLS teams into CanPL. If that's what you want make a rational case for it rather than pretending it's something FIFA are going to mandate at some future point. The reality is that, although it's not particularly likely, if somebody in Alberta dangled enough cash in front of MLS, the USSF, the CSA, CONCACAF and FIFA...

Dude, New Zealand league is amateur at best - not professional and you've been told that already.

CPL is fully professional, big difference and no, even if the Calgary Flames group dangled enough money to join MLS, CONCACAF would say "no" 🙄

Edited November 22, 2023 by Ansem

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

 even if the Calgary Flames group dangled enough money to join MLS, CONCACAF would say "no" 

Nevermind Concacaf. At this point MLS would say no too.

[phil03]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Dude, New Zealand league is amateur at best - not professional and you've been told that already.

CPL is fully professional, big difference and no, even if the Calgary Flames group dangled enough money to join MLS, CONCACAF would say "no" 🙄

Its still New Zealand's first division, and it does have clubs that are semi-pro at the very least. By the logic of people who believe the MLS clubs will be forced in or to move to the US Auckland ought to have been told that they ought to have gone to their soccer pyramid and help grow it because such are the rules, at least as you and others interpret them.

Instead, FIFA has accepted the argument that Auckland should be able to play in the A-League because the business and sporting model they have in mind wouldn't work in the New Zealand system. Its a perfectly fair precedent to point out at to argue that FIFA is overwhelmingly likely to keep being ok with the same argument being made for the MLS clubs to be given a grandfather clause.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Its still New Zealand's first division, and it does have clubs that are semi-pro at the very least. By the logic of people who believe the MLS clubs will be forced in or to move to the US Auckland ought to have been told that they ought to have gone to their soccer pyramid and help grow it because such are the rules, at least as you and others interpret them.

Instead, FIFA has accepted the argument that Auckland should be able to play in the A-League because the business and sporting model they have in mind wouldn't work in the New Zealand system. Its a perfectly fair precedent to point out at to argue that FIFA is overwhelmingly likely to keep being ok with the same argument being made for the MLS clubs to be given a grandfather clause.

Not going to go past the first sentence. Come back once you've actually read how that "1st division" actually works. It isn't comparable to CPL or typical D1 out there - not even close

[phil03]

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

Not going to go past the first sentence. Come back once you've actually read how that "1st division" actually works. It isn't comparable to CPL or typical D1 out there - not even close

I did, and I fail to see where it is written in the FIFA rules that it makes a difference. Auckland's point is that the model on and off the pitch they have in mind wouldn't fit in the New Zealand pyramid. The same is true for the MLS clubs if they were to be forced in the CPL. The fact that the CPL is, of course, a far better league then New Zealand's top flight, doesn't change that. 

In fact, Auckland's case to get an exception is, if anything, way weaker. All they can say is that the pyramid in their country doesn't fit their project. The MLS clubs can argue that being threatened with their currently existing on and off the pitch being made unsustainable due to their country building a pyramid after they were already existing, circumstances that only a small minority of clubs ever had to face, aka by definition exceptional circumstances, as the FIFA regulations on getting such exceptions puts it.

[Aird25]

 

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

I did, and I fail to see where it is written in the FIFA rules that it makes a difference. Auckland's point is that the model on and off the pitch they have in mind wouldn't fit in the New Zealand pyramid. The same is true for the MLS clubs if they were to be forced in the CPL. The fact that the CPL is, of course, a far better league then New Zealand's top flight, doesn't change that. 

In fact, Auckland's case to get an exception is, if anything, way weaker. All they can say is that the pyramid in their country doesn't fit their project. The MLS clubs can argue that being threatened with their currently existing on and off the pitch being made unsustainable due to their country building a pyramid after they were already existing, circumstances that only a small minority of clubs ever had to face, aka by definition exceptional circumstances, as the FIFA regulations on getting such exceptions puts it.

What's different about Auckland than PSG, Bayern, Celtic, River Plate, Al Ahly, Olympiacos, Saprissa, Benfica etc etc. All over the world there are clubs that spend significantly more than others in their domestic league's. What's the special circumstance?

Regardless, why is this being discussed now in a CPL thread. Did someone suggest Canadian MLS clubs join CPL recently 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Aird25

[phil03]

39 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

 

What's different about Auckland than PSG, Bayern, Celtic, River Plate, Al Ahly, Olympiacos, Saprissa, Benfica etc etc. All over the world there are clubs that spend significantly more than others in their domestic league's. What's the special circumstance?

Regardless, why is this being discussed now in a CPL thread. Did someone suggest Canadian MLS clubs join CPL recently 

Precisely! Honestly, if I had been the one making the call based on the rules as they are currently written I would have told Auckland they ought to play in their pyramid for exactly the reasons you state: merely spending way more money then the rest of your pyramid isn't really all that exceptional. The fact FIFA probably stated in private they'd put their stamp of approval on it does kinda feel like they aren't too gung ho about the letter of their own rules if nobody is trying to pressure them to apply said rules in a given situation and/or good old money is involved...

As for why its discussed here, trying to force the MLS clubs to either move or play in CPL is something that comes up every now and then on the forum. Auckland getting the go-ahead to play in another pyramid does seem like a rather strong precedent against the argument that FIFA might decide to force the MLS clubs' hands at some point, as some here believe. Especially since, as you pointed out, Auckland's case that they face exceptional circumstances is a lot weaker than the MLS clubs since unlike them it doesn't predate New Zealand having a D1 and hasn't had to build its whole sporting and business model around playing in another pyramid due to a lack of a domestic option.

Edited November 23, 2023 by phil03

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

 

Regardless, why is this being discussed now in a CPL thread. Did someone suggest Canadian MLS clubs join CPL recently 

It's just Ozzie trying to refute a point Ansem often makes.

[Ansem]

13 hours ago, phil03 said:

I did, and I fail to see where it is written in the FIFA rules that it makes a difference. Auckland's point is that the model on and off the pitch they have in mind wouldn't fit in the New Zealand pyramid. The same is true for the MLS clubs if they were to be forced in the CPL. The fact that the CPL is, of course, a far better league then New Zealand's top flight, doesn't change that. 

In fact, Auckland's case to get an exception is, if anything, way weaker. All they can say is that the pyramid in their country doesn't fit their project. The MLS clubs can argue that being threatened with their currently existing on and off the pitch being made unsustainable due to their country building a pyramid after they were already existing, circumstances that only a small minority of clubs ever had to face, aka by definition exceptional circumstances, as the FIFA regulations on getting such exceptions puts it.

This is irrelevant to this thread but you should know that the NZ national league is more of a "Memorial Cup"/what League 1 Canada could be than an actual league

Clubs from regional leagues (D2) qualify from the regional phase (where the bulk of the games are played) to the championship phase (9 games + finals) - oh and the Wellington A League reserve team (D1 right?🙄) automatically qualify for this phase.

This is like having L1 BC/AB/Prairies/ON/QC/ATL sending their top clubs to League 1 Canada with TFII, VAN & MTL reserves automatically qualifying to the competition where they play one another once (9 games) before playing for L1C Cup "after" playing their regular seasons in their respective regional leagues.

Hardly comparable to a standard league the way general consensus understands how it should be, which fits what CPL is.

Good for Auckland and NZ football who has more presence in AFC. The fact that NZ league operates in OFC is no small detail either. There's plenty of exceptional circumstances to go around here

[red card]

 

[Kent]

This article doesn't really try to answer the question raised in the title, and there isn't any info in here that the majority of us don't already know, but it's a pretty decent article.

https://www.footballparadise.com/the-canadian-premier-league-a-new-era-or-another-experiment-destined-for-failure/

With one exception. "Atlético Ottawa, a subsidiary venture of La Liga powerhouses Atlético Madrid and the best-supported club in the division by some distance, regularly see gates of over 12,000 at the TD Place Stadium." Lol, take that Halifax! Ottawa regularly has 12,000 fans show up to games just like they regularly play in the final.

[narduch]

 

 

[SoccMan]

22 hours ago, narduch said:

 

 

World Soccer magazine lol is that still around ? That was my go to soccer magazine along with Soccer America back in the day before technology brought us everything we have today .

[Watchmen]

47 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

World Soccer magazine lol is that still around ? That was my go to soccer magazine along with Soccer America back in the day before technology brought us everything we have today .

Same. I actually bought their World Cup issue last year just for Canada finally being in it.

[phil03]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:11 AM, Kent said:

This article doesn't really try to answer the question raised in the title, and there isn't any info in here that the majority of us don't already know, but it's a pretty decent article.

https://www.footballparadise.com/the-canadian-premier-league-a-new-era-or-another-experiment-destined-for-failure/

With one exception. "Atlético Ottawa, a subsidiary venture of La Liga powerhouses Atlético Madrid and the best-supported club in the division by some distance, regularly see gates of over 12,000 at the TD Place Stadium." Lol, take that Halifax! Ottawa regularly has 12,000 fans show up to games just like they regularly play in the final.

I have read it and while I recognise its a good research and some of it my issues with it come from the fact I have a different stance then the author, I'd argue there is some other significant inaccuracies: 

I) His statement that national teams who do very well depend on players in their domestic flight. Like, even if by the narrowest definition of very well it still leaves off Brazil, Argentine, and Belgium among the tier I countries of recent years. More broadly, most national teams who are worth a damn depend on players who have gone abroad to play at a higher level. That statement gives pretty Premier League in my backyard energy...

II) Similarly, his statement is that Canada's soccer problem is its ''self-imposed shackles'', to use his own words, because it just hasn't come around to found a league of its own before and keep having teams in the US pyramid is just untrue. Canada's soccer problem is a) how to get the mass of genuine soccer fans we have to buy into the local stuff and b) that it is inherently more costly to have a Soccer club in Canada than almost anywhere else due to our countries' population centers being essentially placed in a straight line east to west. TBF he does mention geography but doesn't really go into it

Hell, if anything you can argue its other way around: it isn't that being in the American pyramid prevented us from having the CPL but that we have the CPL because the Yanks didn't want to let us in as much as we would have needed to! All other things being equal a Canadian club playing in a league including the US would save a ton in travel costs and the magic number for attendance would be significantly lower then a club playing at the same level but just in Canada. If we had found to get say 12 clubs in MLS and USL and domestic status for Canadian players, or even having the quasi-domestic status that Canadian players arguably now have in MLS but earlier, we'd have been fine and there would have been no need or justification to make the sacrifices needed to get the CPL going. That's whole reason we have to accept that something like the CSB deal was needed, even if we don't like the specific terms.

III) His statement that MLS clubs haven't done anything for smaller teams. That's just factually untrue. They have been the best customers, so to speak, in terms of giving a shot at a higher level for these clubs' players and the main source of loanees to the CPL. These have not only been great for the league financially but also played a key role in helping it build its credibility in the broader Soccer world. You had to have a Waterman and a McNaughton to have a Loturi.

Oh, and even today a massive chunk of the CPL's rosters are made of veterans of the academies of MLS clubs. Earlier on it was the vast majority of said rosters.

Of course, everyone is free to argue whether it's enough or not but it is both a very real and very substantial contribution.

IV) His statement that its a done deal MLS clubs won't continue to dominate the Canadian Championship. Even a cursory glance at Soccer systems across the world will show that most of them have been dominated by one, two, or a few clubs for quite a long time at this stage. I have no doubt a CPL club is bound to win the Canadian Championship down the line but there is no reason to be overly confident that the norm will stop being an MLS club winning it anytime soon.

V) The idea that the MLS clubs bemoan CPL participation and competitiveness in the Canadian Championship. That is simply untrue. Broadly speaking the attitude is that its awesome and add more luster to a title that make much of these clubs' trophy cabinets. Even having CPL clubs win it, which is bound to happen, would probably be taken in stride for that reason.

VI) The idea that TFC was given the Champions League berth because the Federal Government treated them more favorably and the myth of them getting it being unfair to Forge. The actual reason that TFC got it is because, on a purely practical level, no club that operated from Canada during the peak of the Pandemic could play in an international tournament. No soccer club got an exception to those and the only reason we got a club in the 2021 CONCACAF Champions League at all was because the MLS clubs exiled themselves to the US to play their regular season. 

Sure, we could have decided to not send anyone out of a sense of abstract fairness but what good would that have done to anyone? It wasn't unfair to Forge because Forge couldn't have played in that tournament aniway! (Incidentally, its part of why I am of the firm opinion that the ''2020 Canadian Championship'' shouldn't have been played and doesn't count in any way whatsoever but that's another kettle of fish).

Edited November 28, 2023 by phil03

[Ansem]

In other news...

CSB now owns League 1 BC

 

[Big_M]

Canadian Premier League announces winners of inaugural CPL Business Awards

[fil]

This is interesting from the link...

 

Top Group Sales (Tickets Sold) – Atlético Ottawa

Top Group Sales (Revenue) – Forge FC

Top Single Match Sales Promotion (Tickets Sold) – Atlético Ottawa

Top Single Match Sales Promotion (Revenue) – Halifax Wanderers FC

Top Season Seat Member Net Growth – Forge FC

Top Season Seat Member Retention – Halifax Wanderers FC

Top Partnership Sales Team – Cavalry FC

Top Jersey Sales (Units) – Forge FC

Top Jersey Sales (Revenue) – Pacific FC

[red card]

6 hours ago, Big_M said:

Canadian Premier League announces winners of inaugural CPL Business Awards

Aside from York which was run by the league this year, the only operation with no awards is the one that seems to rail against it's supporters base the most: Valour.

[fil]

[phil03]

So, just a random idea I had: one thing that I feel everyone can agree on is that a key part of the CPL mandate is to develop young players. As a result, I think there might be merits in giving clubs league-based incentives, so that it isn't just the cash and the prestige, as important as those might, to transfer upward to some of their players.

Just on the top of my head I had two ideas:

I. Something like the General Allocation Money in MLS but purely based on transfers and with a provision that teams can keep it for as long as they like before using it, so that its essentially an investment for the future, when the league's financial footing would be solid enough that more clubs can easily afford to spend to the salary cap and might be interesting in some leaways to keep going...

II. Setting asside a descent portion of the CSB deal money each year, to be distributed to clubs based on how successful they have been in getting their players upward transfers the previous year.

Thoughts?

Edited December 6, 2023 by phil03