CPL General

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, RS said:

You're talking about one guy. 

One unbelievably dedicated guy, though

[RS]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

One unbelievably dedicated guy, though

Very true.

[MtlMario]

22 hours ago, Ansem said:

Comparison in regards to making or losing money
https://www.forbes.com/sites/justinbirnbaum/2023/02/02/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-clubs-2023-lafc-is-the-first-billion-dollar-franchise/

Some turns a profit but most are losing money

 

Only Chicago Fire loses more money than the Canadian clubs at -$18M.

NYCFC loses as much as Montreal at -$12M

 

Toronto FC (-$15M)

Vancouver Whitecaps (-$15M)

CF Montreal (-$12M)

 

 

One way to stop losing money (MLS) is by stop travelling by plane and become a regional bus league.😀

[MtlMario]

I must admit it wasn't my idea, I stole it from someone.😎

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Ignoring that series of truly moronic posts, what's happening in Australia right now shows why it's potentially a good idea to control the tier below you in sanctioning terms like CanPL does with the L1 level:

If you want to avoid ever being relegated into it. The conspiracy theory is that the national federation there thinks the A League might fold and are resuscitating the old NSL as a possible plan B. 

[toontownman]

Not the thread for it, but we are still very much in the, let's get uniformed L1 (d3) across the country, zone. It's imperative that happens before anything else.

The problem is there are a handful of clubs the want more but aren't ready for CPL either. The D3 has to happen first though. The other teams could potential do invitational tournaments in the interim? Easier said that done pacifyiny those that are ambitious for more though. 

I could see CPL splitting into two divisions eventually but we are talking 1 or 2 decades time. The CPL would have to reach 16 teams before that starts getting talked about. Even then I'd fancy owners would prefer and MLS style east and west over pro/rel. From a fans point of view if it's a CPL1 and 2, I don't see attendance significantly dropping if teams get relegated. Maybe there is eventually scope for 4 tiers with L1 at the bottom, a league higher, then the two CPL leagues.

Either way I agree it is beyond imperative the leagues have to be under the same umbrella. There is no other way without the problems above or usl/nasl. 

The L1 women's teams can eventually help build the announced Canadian women's league. Eventually with a buffer league in between if things are healthy enough. 

[Kingston]

24 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Not the thread for it, but we are still very much in the, let's get uniformed L1 (d3) across the country, zone. It's imperative that happens before anything else.

The problem is there are a handful of clubs the want more but aren't ready for CPL either. The D3 has to happen first though. The other teams could potential do invitational tournaments in the interim? Easier said that done pacifyiny those that are ambitious for more though. 

I could see CPL splitting into two divisions eventually but we are talking 1 or 2 decades time. The CPL would have to reach 16 teams before that starts getting talked about. Even then I'd fancy owners would prefer and MLS style east and west over pro/rel. From a fans point of view if it's a CPL1 and 2, I don't see attendance significantly dropping if teams get relegated. Maybe there is eventually scope for 4 tiers with L1 at the bottom, a league higher, then the two CPL leagues.

Either way I agree it is beyond imperative the leagues have to be under the same umbrella. There is no other way without the problems above or usl/nasl. 

The L1 women's teams can eventually help build the announced Canadian women's league. Eventually with a buffer league in between if things are healthy enough. 

The Canadian club soccer situation is going to be in considerable flux for the next decade or more yet before it settles into something like a "permanent" form.

If we ended up with the three MLS teams, a strong CPL with a dozen or so solid teams, and five or six D3 leagues (tiered like L1O where appropriate) I'd be quite happy.

[Aird25]

Play everyone home and away once. Fourteen teams likely fits our realistic season given weather in most Canadian cities. Let's get to that point in our top division.

[narduch]

47 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Play everyone home and away once. Fourteen teams likely fits our realistic season given weather in most Canadian cities. Let's get to that point in our top division.

16 teams with a balanced 30 game regular season would probably be the most optimal 

[Kingston]

51 minutes ago, narduch said:

16 teams with a balanced 30 game regular season would probably be the most optimal 

Just curious, how so?  I mean, the number of teams and games is more or less arbitrary so what do you particularly like about 16 teams that makes it optimal?

[SpursFlu]

I personally think 12 - 16 teams is the sweet spot

I think Onesoccer just had a coefficient ranking for all the teams in the Voyageurs Cup and I thought to myself, Hey now that looks like a proper league 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by SpursFlu

[CDNFootballer]

4 hours ago, narduch said:

16 teams with a balanced 30 game regular season would probably be the most optimal 

Agreed, wouldn't want to go below the 28 game mark for the season so if they will stick with a single table then tailoring it for 28-32 games a season (as long as the clubs/markets are viable) is desirable imo.

As one who's followed the USL leagues and Nasl in the past they were concerned about having enough games per season for gate and optics reasons as professional leagues.

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

Just curious, how so?  I mean, the number of teams and games is more or less arbitrary so what do you particularly like about 16 teams that makes it optimal?

I just like having a balanced schedule and 16 teams is the best way to get there.

Really anything above 10 teams would be great as long as the pyramid below fills out.

Some of the best soccer nations only have 10-12 team top flights (thinking of Croatia)

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

[Kent]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:45 PM, toontownman said:

I could see CPL splitting into two divisions eventually but we are talking 1 or 2 decades time. The CPL would have to reach 16 teams before that starts getting talked about.

I've mentioned this before, and as you rightly point out we are still a long way from seriously discussing this, but I don't think it would be a good idea for CPL to split into two divisions. I wouldn't want to have a 16 team league one year, and the next year my team is playing in an 8 team league. It will feel like we've gone backwards in infrastructure terms.

I think a better (although not sure how realistic) possibility is once the top level is filled up at whatever number, new prospective teams are put in the D3 leagues until we have enough willing teams in those leagues that want to make the jump to a national pro league (or possibly east/west split). Promoting up from the D3s is a better option than chopping CPL in half in my opinion.

But yeah, we are 4 to 8 CPL teams away, and probably 3 or 4 D3 leagues away from that looking like a realistic possibility.

[Kingston]

12 minutes ago, Kent said:

I've mentioned this before, and as you rightly point out we are still a long way from seriously discussing this, but I don't think it would be a good idea for CPL to split into two divisions. I wouldn't want to have a 16 team league one year, and the next year my team is playing in an 8 team league. It will feel like we've gone backwards in infrastructure terms.

I think advocates of pro/rel in Canada tend to focus on the pro side and don't think enough about the rel.

Yes, a promotion system would be one way to let ambitious D3 teams climb their way up to the big leagues.  So far, so good.

Given the still precarious state of pro soccer in Canada, however, do we really want to relegate some CPL club that has just spent ten years and thirty million dollars getting established?  "Sorry, Halifax, nothing personal, but we have to give Vaughan a shot at the big leagues.  I'm sure you'll be fine in the L1M for a season or two until you can win your way back up."

[ted]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

I wouldn't want to have a 16 team league one year, and the next year my team is playing in an 8 team league.

That would be unrealistic and a huge step backwards.

[Cheeta]

7 hours ago, Kingston said:

I think advocates of pro/rel in Canada tend to focus on the pro side and don't think enough about the rel.

Yes, a promotion system would be one way to let ambitious D3 teams climb their way up to the big leagues.  So far, so good.

Given the still precarious state of pro soccer in Canada, however, do we really want to relegate some CPL club that has just spent ten years and thirty million dollars getting established?  "Sorry, Halifax, nothing personal, but we have to give Vaughan a shot at the big leagues.  I'm sure you'll be fine in the L1M for a season or two until you can win your way back up."

Spot on.  However...

If it comes, as you've suggested, I think pro-reg won't be so simple as the wooden spoon earns you a trip down or winning this or that league earns you a trip into top-flight.  I just don't see it being that simple.  And CPL having a number of tests which club sides need to overcome in order to promote wouldn't be unusual.

It's quite possible a team could earn promotion through on-field merit yet being unable to meet the off-field requirements of promotion (suitable venue, financial markers) and are therefore unable to be promoted.  One of those tests might be a buy-in clause.  Who knows?   

Quite right.  In the CPL, in Canada, the reality of being a federation would have to be taken into account as well, I think.  CPL would probably have pro-reg containing a regional element in order to maintain regional representation. That is to say, if Valour finish dead in last in 2026 they'd be subject to being replaced by a club within their catchment (whatever that is).  But said replacement still needs to fill all the CPL requirements (whatever they are) to earn that promotion. 

All academic of course, but interesting to speculate.  Can't deny it would be absolutely wild watching a CPL team fight for it's CPL life against a reginal pretender though.  Quite the way to close out an arse season no?  Finding heaven or sinking into hell. 

Now that's football.    

           

 

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Spot on.  However...

If it comes, as you've suggested, I think pro-reg won't be so simple as the wooden spoon earns you a trip down or winning this or that league earns you a trip into top-flight.  I just don't see it being that simple.  And CPL having a number of tests which club sides need to overcome in order to promote wouldn't be unusual.

It's quite possible a team could earn promotion through on-field merit yet being unable to meet the off-field requirements of promotion (suitable venue, financial markers) and are therefore unable to be promoted.  One of those tests might be a buy-in clause.  Who knows?   

Quite right.  In the CPL, in Canada, the reality of being a federation would have to be taken into account as well, I think.  CPL would probably have pro-reg containing a regional element in order to maintain regional representation. That is to say, if Valour finish dead in last in 2026 they'd be subject to being replaced by a club within their catchment (whatever that is).  But said replacement still needs to fill all the CPL requirements (whatever they are) to earn that promotion. 

All academic of course, but interesting to speculate.  Can't deny it would be absolutely wild watching a CPL team fight for it's CPL life against a reginal pretender though.  Quite the way to close out an arse season no?  Finding heaven or sinking into hell. 

Now that's football.    

           

 

Yeah, this extra requirements idea is what I had in mind. That's why I said the D2 would be filled up by D3 teams that are willing to make the jump, rather than just saying the top teams. I should have said willing and able. There could potentially be a set of requirements to go from D3 to D2, and then another set to go from D2 to CPL. Like you mentioned the buy in possibility. Let's say it's 10 million total to get into CPL. A D3 team could be required to buy in 5 million (for example) to get into D2 (just a one time deal, if they got relegated back down they wouldn't have to pay it again if they came back up), then if/when they earn promotion to D1 they would have to pay the remaining 5 million to buy in. Similar with stadiums. Maybe to play D2 the requirement is a 2k seat stadium, and the CPL requirement is a 5k seat stadium. They could expand their stadium to meet D2 requirements, and they could potentially have some time in D2 to build up their brand more to be able to upgrade their stadium again to 5k or more so they can promote to CPL when their performances allow.

[MtlMario]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:17 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ignoring that series of truly moronic posts, what's happening in Australia right now shows why it's potentially a good idea to control the tier below you in sanctioning terms like CanPL does with the L1 lev

That one moronic post had more likes than you get in a year.😎

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 hours ago, Kingston said:

I think advocates of pro/rel in Canada tend to focus on the pro side and don't think enough about the rel...

We haven't heard much about pro/rel in a CanPL context since Paul Beirne left the front office. Suspect it was marketing spin as much as anything else because they thought there was a market for something that was more like a European setup than MLS (see also what happened with playoffs or lack thereof in year one). The ironic thing about doing that is that CanPL definitely went out of its way to emulate MLS in many aspects of league operations.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

This appears to be a list of 2022 CanPL salaries:

https://salarysport.com/football/canadian-premier-league/highest-paid/

I think the numbers might be Canadian dollars despite the pound symbol. Known MLS loanee salaries appear to be a better fit that way.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

Realistically, I could see an announcement of "intent" for a D2 after the 2026 World Cup. With the MediaPro deal ending in 2029, you'd need that D2 league to be part of the next media deal.

Ideally, a launch around 2030 makes sense giving them around 4 years to take applications and start the league.

They could implement pro/rel in the mid 2030s once that league financial and playing level is where they want it to be while figuring out a formula that prevents relegated clubs from going bankrupt.

As for relegation itself, it could be done in phases

1. Relegation playoffs in CPL leading to a home and away serie between CPL last club vs D2 champion
2. Eventually, automatic pro/rel (1 club)
3. Long long term- automatic pro/rel --> more than 1 club

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

This appears to be a list of 2022 CanPL salaries:

https://salarysport.com/football/canadian-premier-league/highest-paid/

I think the numbers might be Canadian dollars despite the pound symbol. Known MLS loanee salaries appear to be a better fit that way.

Wasn't it reported by the league that Bustos was on $75k with Pacific, and the highest paid player at that time? I'd take these with a massive grain of salt, or maybe they're salaries alone and don't include things like housing which are often provided

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

My guess would be this is take home pay level and the source is the players union but something for what passes for journalism in a Canadian soccer context to investigate.