CPL General

[MM3/MM2/MM]

39 minutes ago, narduch said:

Ok. But USLC doesn't really either.

Just read this excellent article a few days ago, it may have been posted elsewhwere?

Even though MLS Next Pro is a lower level of play and pay less then USLC, it may be a better avenue to get noticed by an MLS team.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/soccer/rising/2022/06/24/why-so-rare-usl-players-make-leap-mls/7527892001/

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Mildly interesting snippet of info in this:

...Not many fans are going to see the USL Championship, where he has been linked with (although the exact team has not come out yet) as a move up. It is from a pay perspective and it offers more exposure to MLS scouts. The latter is not something everyone associated with CanPL wants to admit, but I’ve been told by more than one player or agent that it is the case. Since, MLS is the realistic “big move” opportunity for most CanPL guys, getting MLS exposure is vital...

Presumably that means in an American context where MLS is concerned given Daniel Krutzen was just on trial with the Whitecaps. Others have expressed skepticism but I'm not sure sticking the games behind the Onesoccer paywall does CanPL players any favours on that even if it makes sense for the league and Mediapro from other angles. Having said that I suspect Krutzen's move was mainly about the money.

An American league scouts has more eyes on American leagues than a Canadian league - consider myself "shocked"

The notion that Onesoccer being behind a paywall would stop scouts is utterly ridiculous

Edited January 24, 2023 by Ansem

[Ansem]

46 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

Just read this excellent article a few days ago, it may have been posted elsewhwere?

Even though MLS Next Pro is a lower level of play and pay less then USLC, it may be a better avenue to get noticed by an MLS team.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/soccer/rising/2022/06/24/why-so-rare-usl-players-make-leap-mls/7527892001/

That's a 100% logical - in reverse the League 1 Canada leagues are a better avenue for CPL than USL or MLS Next Pro unless the player is Canadian as they aren't taking an international spot.

While some on this board predicted that the league would be filled with Americans in international spots, that's not what happened at all.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, narduch said:

Ok. But USLC doesn't really either.

Again, that's not the view of the players or agents.

[Ansem]

We see 2 differents outcomes when joining CPL or USL/MLS Next Pro - that's great for the players to have a clear choice...nothing wrong with that

[Cheeta]

7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Again, that's not the view of the players or agents.

Players listen to their agent otherwise they wouldn't be their agent.  Don't know enough about the inside workings of the business but I think it safe to speculate in this part of the world that agents aren't trying to make their job any harder, they'll stick to the roads they know.  Maybe that's lazy, maybe that's effecient, maybe that's herd think, don't known.  But at this level that's what it's all about yes?  That next step.

If CPL to Next Pro develops into a ladder for the players then great.  If it develops into a dead end not so much.  It's early days yet and we'll see where this all goes.  Attitudes and opinions can quickly change.      

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Players listen to their agent otherwise they wouldn't be their agent.  Don't know enough about the inside workings of the business but I think it safe to speculate in this part of the world that agents aren't trying to make their job any harder, they'll stick to the roads they know.  Maybe that's lazy, maybe that's effecient, maybe that's herd think, don't known.  But at this level that's what it's all about yes?  That next step.

If CPL to Next Pro develops into a ladder for the players then great.  If it develops into a dead end not so much.  It's early days yet and we'll see where this all goes.  Attitudes and opinions can quickly change.      

If Next Pro consolidates, with fans in the stands even, that would give us three pro options in each of Toronto and Vancouver.

 

[Kent]

A lot of "scouting" happens in head to head matches with the team doing the scouting. With that in mind perhaps the new CCL format in 2024 will help the odd CPL player get a transfer to American MLS teams (or Liga MX teams). It might be negligible, but if a couple players make that jump and do well, it might put more scout eyeballs on the league.

[Aird25]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

A lot of "scouting" happens in head to head matches with the team doing the scouting. With that in mind perhaps the new CCL format in 2024 will help the odd CPL player get a transfer to American MLS teams (or Liga MX teams). It might be negligible, but if a couple players make that jump and do well, it might put more scout eyeballs on the league.

I don’t blame players for accepting more money, but I’m not exactly eager to lose more players either. I think I’m past the plaudits of CPL players having an ounce of success elsewhere 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Aird25

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t blame players for accepting more money, but I’m not exactly eager to lose more players either. I think I’m past the placates of CPL players having an ounce of success elsewhere 

So far the only real CPL "success" stories involve moving into an MLS squad, or being returned from loan to the original MLS squad. For almost all moves to Europe the jury is still out, like for Abzi.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t blame players for accepting more money, but I’m not exactly eager to lose more players either. I think I’m past the placates of CPL players having an ounce of success elsewhere 

If players can't take steps up after playing in the CPL you will see worse and worse players enter the CPL in the first place, and unless/until the league can generate a lot more money you will continue to see guys retiring at 30ish anyways. I'd rather the league produce a bunch of players that go on to bigger and better things at the age of 25, than producing a bunch of players that go on to real estate at age 30.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

If players can't take steps up after playing in the CPL you will see worse and worse players enter the CPL in the first place, and unless/until the league can generate a lot more money you will continue to see guys retiring at 30ish anyways. I'd rather the league produce a bunch of players that go on to bigger and better things at the age of 25, than producing a bunch of players that go on to real estate at age 30.

Our president/owner is in real estate in Switzerland but I wish he’d spend more time in Langford. 

I’m happy for Diaz, McNaughton, Bustos Chung, Manny etc. but I’d be more excited for this season if we still had them. We’ve basically turned over our entire championship team in a season. Ottawa seems on their way to doing something similar 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If expectations hadn't been so unrealistically sky high at the outset and people weren't so fixated with the D1 angle the idea that the pathway to stardom might wind up being CanPL -> USL Championship -> MLS for some players probably wouldn't be viewed as much of a talking point at this point but more something that deserves a visit from a Captain Obvious gif.

Back around 2018 there was an available pool of players in Canada who were capable of a level of soccer that matches the lower fringes of fully professional soccer in Europe but the CSA's moratorium on USL expansion was severely limiting where they could play in a Canadian context with soccer as their primary income source. Given that opportunity by a new league some reasonably high quality soccer was going to be played and over time some of those players were going to find their way to smaller clubs over in Europe.

What there wasn't despite a Nationalist narrative that had gathered a considerable head of steam amongst people inside the CSA bubble over the years was a significant number of Canadian players that deserved to be in MLS but were being denied the opportunity to do so due to MLS roster rules that would now be catered to by CanPL making a significant difference to the CMNT roster for 2026.

CanPL is what it is and any change in playing standards from here is likely to be a gradual decades long process. The problem is whether investors who signed up to an economic model that assumed crowds in the 5000-8000 range would be the norm and that a higher calibre of player would be involved who would attract large transfer fees are going to hang around long enough to allow that to unfold.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Our president/owner is in real estate in Switzerland but I wish he’d spend more time in Langford. 

I’m happy for Diaz, McNaughton, Bustos Chung, Manny etc. but I’d be more excited for this season if we still had them. We’ve basically turned over our entire championship team in a season. Ottawa seems on their way to doing something similar 

I would also like to see a more balanced model. If you have a few players at 50-60,000 a year who become club stalwarts, then fans connect to them and they help build community. If having those guys, and that overall connection, means you get 500 more fans a game, over 14 games at say 30$, that is just over 200k. 

Problem is: if you can sell a guy or two and get that money, maybe the club motivation is not there. I assume they got something like that for Wero. The club could decide that the effort to build a fanbase is not worth it, that it is easier to bet on a standout who will sell, and the club economy does not suffer.

So I think most would like a combination. We'd like the Bekkers and Carduccis to be able to stay at their clubs and become "legends", we want some to transfer out and further their careers, then a few more to be sold to help the team economy. 

The CPL teams are not at a place where they can change the entire roster wholesale in 2 years, as you are describing. At Nottingham Forest they can do it, because the fans will go regardless, there is a historical tradition and base. Not in CPL. M

Maybe the league should be giving clubs a bonus on the salary cap for veterans, for guys with say 3 or more seasons.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kingston]

48 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I’m happy for Diaz, McNaughton, Bustos Chung, Manny etc. but I’d be more excited for this season if we still had them. We’ve basically turned over our entire championship team in a season. Ottawa seems on their way to doing something similar 

This will continue for two reasons.

First, and most important in the immediate sense, is the money.  No one with options is going to stay in the CPL when they can make far more as even a bench player in MLS or Europe.  The CPL is moving forward quickly on raising salaries I'm happy to see, but until mid-level guys can make something close to $100 k, we're going to continue to see pretty much anyone who can leaving as soon as they get better offers.  The league should be able to slow this in near term as salaries rise, however, which will make it better for fans who want to see their team do well rather than watch the league as a development league.

Second is the level of play.  Good on the CPL for what they've accomplished so far and the league is still way down in the foothills of global soccer.  Players are always going to want to advance, however, and good on them.  We don't blame guys for leaving L1O for the CPL, right?  If I was a 19 or 20 year old in the CPL, I'd be looking to move up to MLS or an equivalent European league as quickly as I could.  Even MLS, which is an order of magnitude above the CPL in terms of salaries, is a stepping stone for the really talented players who aim for starting spots on our national team.  For this reason I don't see the exodus of top players from the CPL ever really ending.

[SoccMan]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

This will continue for two reasons.

First, and most important in the immediate sense, is the money.  No one with options is going to stay in the CPL when they can make far more as even a bench player in MLS or Europe.  The CPL is moving forward quickly on raising salaries I'm happy to see, but until mid-level guys can make something close to $100 k, we're going to continue to see pretty much anyone who can leaving as soon as they get better offers.  The league should be able to slow this in near term as salaries rise, however, which will make it better for fans who want to see their team do well rather than watch the league as a development league.

Second is the level of play.  Good on the CPL for what they've accomplished so far and the league is still way down in the foothills of global soccer.  Players are always going to want to advance, however, and good on them.  We don't blame guys for leaving L1O for the CPL, right?  If I was a 19 or 20 year old in the CPL, I'd be looking to move up to MLS or an equivalent European league as quickly as I could.  Even MLS, which is an order of magnitude above the CPL in terms of salaries, is a stepping stone for the really talented players who aim for starting spots on our national team.  For this reason I don't see the exodus of top players from the CPL ever really ending.

Actually this is a good selling point for all lower leagues around the world that are not one of the top 5 leagues in the world . This is what will keep players with dreams of continuing to play and stay in the game . A league like the CPL will indirectly keep players playing and chasing their dreams of one day making to bigger leagues via the CPL. 

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

This will continue for two reasons.

First, and most important in the immediate sense, is the money.  No one with options is going to stay in the CPL when they can make far more as even a bench player in MLS or Europe.  The CPL is moving forward quickly on raising salaries I'm happy to see, but until mid-level guys can make something close to $100 k, we're going to continue to see pretty much anyone who can leaving as soon as they get better offers.  The league should be able to slow this in near term as salaries rise, however, which will make it better for fans who want to see their team do well rather than watch the league as a development league.

Second is the level of play.  Good on the CPL for what they've accomplished so far and the league is still way down in the foothills of global soccer.  Players are always going to want to advance, however, and good on them.  We don't blame guys for leaving L1O for the CPL, right?  If I was a 19 or 20 year old in the CPL, I'd be looking to move up to MLS or an equivalent European league as quickly as I could.  Even MLS, which is an order of magnitude above the CPL in terms of salaries, is a stepping stone for the really talented players who aim for starting spots on our national team.  For this reason I don't see the exodus of top players from the CPL ever really ending.

I understand where we're at in the pecking order, and the realities of that. I'm just saying I won't go into Champions League matches excited about the chance of our players getting poached. I'll be hoping we do well in the match

[Kingston]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I understand where we're at in the pecking order, and the realities of that. I'm just saying I won't go into Champions League matches excited about the chance of our players getting poached. I'll be hoping we do well in the match

That's fair.  And I also want to see our CPL teams do well in the Champions League.  I'm just also happy if the exposure results in CPL players moving up the soccer ladder to higher level teams.  But then my personal favourite club isn't in the CPL so I'm a fan of the CPL overall and less concerned about the fortunes of a particular CPL club.

[SpursFlu]

Mo money + mo sun = mo happiness 

Income tax in Arizona look to be less than 1/3 of what it is in Ontario. Cost of living, forget about it

Edited January 26, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Aird25]

22 minutes ago, Kingston said:

That's fair.  And I also want to see our CPL teams do well in the Champions League.  I'm just also happy if the exposure results in CPL players moving up the soccer ladder to higher level teams.  But then my personal favourite club isn't in the CPL so I'm a fan of the CPL overall and less concerned about the fortunes of a particular CPL club.

To be fair, I'm completely fine with Forge losing players like Krutzen and/or Bekker. They've done a very good job of keeping their group together somehow. It just hurts that Pacific have next to nobody left from 2 seasons ago so the prospects of MLS and Liga MX coming looking more often is unsettling. I get it from a National team perspective, but it's unlikely that any of the players we've lost will even feature much for Canada. I suppose MacNaughton is on the fringes now, and I wouldn't mind giving Alghamdi a look. I hope Ballou performs to his potential and gets himself back in the mix. 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So I think most would like a combination. We'd like the Bekkers and Carduccis to be able to stay at their clubs and become "legends", we want some to transfer out and further their careers, then a few more to be sold to help the team economy. 

I think this is very much the model the CPL is aiming for. Try to keep one or two "legends" around, but turn over the roster fairly frequently. I sort of thought Irving or Bustos might be that for Pacific, so I think Pacific has maybe gone a bit too far but also those situations were beyond their control. And to be clear, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with this model. It gives players a "second chance" to showcase themselves but still moves on from players who will never be more than this level. But, it's also why I the "we're going to close the gap between CPL and MLS" talk is very premature from some people, because that's just not what the CPL is trying to do.

[P-O]

The quality of our league will just go up for the next decades.

Football is becoming THE SPORT and every year we have 500k more immigrants in this country.

The quality of our D3 will also go up, so is the pool of players the CPL clubs will be feeding from.

We have more than 50 clubs that are pro/semi pro playing D3 and up. How many did we have 20 years ago?

I bet we will have 75 when the World Cup is here in 2026 and over 100 by 2030.

 

Alberta is starting one.

Many cities in BC, Ontario & Quebec will join the D3. Heck, even Ontario's D3 will go 3 divisions down to a D5.

When that step is done, in 10 years??? We will glue it all together with our own D2 and the pyramid will be set, and canadian soccer will be fluid and running.

[Kingston]

21 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think this is very much the model the CPL is aiming for. Try to keep one or two "legends" around, but turn over the roster fairly frequently. I sort of thought Irving or Bustos might be that for Pacific, so I think Pacific has maybe gone a bit too far but also those situations were beyond their control. And to be clear, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with this model. It gives players a "second chance" to showcase themselves but still moves on from players who will never be more than this level. But, it's also why I the "we're going to close the gap between CPL and MLS" talk is very premature from some people, because that's just not what the CPL is trying to do.

I pretty much agree with this although I think the era of the CPL being a league for second chances is diminishing.  When the CPL started, there were quite a few guys floating around who had been recently cut by MLS squads.  A bunch of them got a second chance with the CPL. 

That initial pool of three years of MLS cuts has now been depleted, however.  I imagine we will still see the odd MLS castoff getting a second chance but as the D3 and CPL levels continue to rise I think we'll see less of it.  If they do come over it will be with the idea of playing in the CPL "permanently" (see Kyle Bekker) rather than as a second chance to go back up.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Kingston

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think this is very much the model the CPL is aiming for. Try to keep one or two "legends" around, but turn over the roster fairly frequently. I sort of thought Irving or Bustos might be that for Pacific, so I think Pacific has maybe gone a bit too far but also those situations were beyond their control. And to be clear, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with this model. It gives players a "second chance" to showcase themselves but still moves on from players who will never be more than this level. But, it's also why I the "we're going to close the gap between CPL and MLS" talk is very premature from some people, because that's just not what the CPL is trying to do.

The one factor perhaps missing is longer-term contracts. 

We just accept a lot of players are on year contracts with maybe an option because the whole damn thing is so tentative. Who imposed this, the league? Is it because salaries were so low it was hard to ask a players to commit for any longer?

But really, if you invest in a player, and if a player is going to sign, then the contract should be a bit longer, even at 2 with an option we'd be better off. I wonder if the players union will address this.

Then we are about to have our first season without Covid (?) since the initial campaign, so we are finally getting to a semblance of stability for fans, thus income. If you have a stable league, and you are working on building a team to get results (make playoffs, win a league, maybe get to a Voyageurs Cup final, whatever the goal), you have to be able to build on the previous season. So longer-term contracts.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

28 minutes ago, P-O said:

... We have more than 50 clubs that are pro/semi pro playing D3 and up. How many did we have 20 years ago? ...

Things don't always rise exponentially off into the future. Back in the 1970s and 80s the clubs in the top amatuer leagues in cities like London and Windsor could cover the upkeep of a soccer pitch, pay for a set of strips, player registration costs, referees etc with money earned by charging admission and from the proceeds of an ethnic social club bar no problem at all with funds left over to provide a bit of cash to players under the table.

Drink driving laws became stricter, cable TV provided more entertainment options complete with soccer from the old country and that slowly started to unravel. How many of those 50 clubs you mention actually pay their players and are genuinely semi-pro? Suspect it's not as many as you think and that it's usually just a case of putting a new label on the elite amateur soccer that was already happening anyway. How would L1O Alberta actually differ from the AMSL, for example?

Edited January 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot