CPL General

[Shway]

4 minutes ago, Kingston said:

If we expanded that chart to the L1O teams, it would probably show >90% Canadian minutes for the L1O teams.

Is that proof why we need L1O and the CPL is failing us?

Why isn't this chart a proof that, great, we've got thousands of minutes of playing time from teams in different leagues?  If you want to see more from the MLS teams, great, but providing, say, 10 000 minutes of playing time isn't "failing us" just because it isn't, say, 15 000 minutes.

Is L1O considered Tier 1? ...Full stop.
Stupid comparison. 

[narduch]

26 minutes ago, Kingston said:

If we expanded that chart to the L1O teams, it would probably show >90% Canadian minutes for the L1O teams.

Is that proof why we need L1O and the CPL is failing us?

Why isn't this chart a proof that, great, we've got thousands of minutes of playing time from teams in different leagues?  If you want to see more from the MLS teams, great, but providing, say, 10 000 minutes of playing time isn't "failing us" just because it isn't, say, 15 000 minutes.

This is a logical fallacy. I don't know what you are going on about here.

You really do have a pathetic hard on for MLS.

[narduch]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

What, specifically, would it look like to you if those three clubs were taking player development seriously?

How about actually developing a few Canadian starters for their senior teams via their Academies?

Like even just 1 for some of these teams.

I often wonder if eventually these teams pull the plug on their academies considering how dreadful they have been.

[Unnamed Trialist]

@Kingstondoes have a point, because the further you go down tiers or quality levels in any country in the world, the more national minutes you see and the less international. So the higher tiers are more weighed towards imports and the lower tiers towards nationals.

This is why I am unconcerned about the question of comparing CPL to MLS, being a higher level of play. In the US MLS teams there are less US minutes than on USL clubs, and so on.

The point is that we have labour laws allowing Americans to work in favourable conditions in Canada, which the CSA as sanctioning body accepts, and Canadian labour authorities also accept, and no official body is willing to go to bat for reciprocity for Canadians on US MLS teams. 

Right now, because Britain refused reciprocity for EU citizens working or living in the UK, many Brits are now losing their rights to work or reside in the EU. Because when you negotiate in favour of those you represent, you offer most generously to treat others the same as your folk are being treated. But we dumbly treat the Americans better and accept our players being discriminated.

CPL partially redresses this, indirectly, and through the back door, simply by ignoring the failure of the CSA and MLS to treat us right, and giving opportunities to Canadians. The fact that few Americans play in CPL, and many are those with experience in Canada, suggests we are only indirectly saying, well, you see.

[Aird25]

23 minutes ago, narduch said:

Remember in 2019 Carducci did earn a senior national team call up while playing CPL. That was fully deserved too based on the GK situation at the time.

This isn't an indictment on the CPL. The fact of the matter is the CanMNT has simply improved A LOT in 4 years. Hell a guy like Tiebert in MLS would have been a shoe in in 2018 if he had his 2022 MLS minutes.

TBH I don't love the direction this thread is going. I don't think we should be so worried about MLS vs CPL. Both serve a purpose for us, and we're seeing more players than ever getting a chance to play professionally, and more fans than ever given a chance to support local teams. I don't think we need to upheave all that at this point in time.

Saying that, reading @Kingston bemoan the level of hostility directed by some toward our Canadian MLS teams feels a bit rich to me given the whole ordeal with the national teams lately, and the fact this is a CPL thread. This league has been constantly slagged by supposed supporters, and now by some of the players who benefit from Canadian funding and support the most. I probably wouldn't even post here so much if there weren't so many people trying to undercut the CPL at every turn.

[Kingston]

34 minutes ago, Shway said:

Is L1O considered Tier 1? ...Full stop.
Stupid comparison. 

It's not a perfect comparison, but they're all minutes of development for Canadian soccer players.  It's not like CPL minutes are identical to MLS minutes just because they're both registered as D1 leagues.

My actual objection is to the glass-is-half-empty negativity that is directed at our MLS teams.  They do A, B, C, and D that benefit Canadian soccer but they don't also do E so it's all "terrible" and "a failure".  But I guess that's just how some people approach things.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Kingston

[Kingston]

18 minutes ago, narduch said:

This is a logical fallacy. I don't know what you are going on about here.

You really do have a pathetic hard on for MLS.

Not really.  I'm just able to acknowledge both positive and negative aspects of teams and leagues instead of only seeing the negatives of one league and the positives of another.

[narduch]

Just now, Kingston said:

Not really.  I'm just able to acknowledge both positive and negative aspects of teams and leagues instead of only seeing the negatives of one league and the positives of another.

Sure. Pat yourself on the back if you need to.

[narduch]

16 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The point is that we have labour laws allowing Americans to work in favourable conditions in Canada, which the CSA as sanctioning body accepts, and Canadian labour authorities also accept, and no official body is willing to go to bat for reciprocity for Canadians on US MLS teams.

I think one thing that is annoying is seeing other Voyageurs make excuses or defend this. It's sad.

[RS]

52 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Why isn't this chart a proof that, great, we've got thousands of minutes of playing time from teams in different leagues?  If you want to see more from the MLS teams, great, but providing, say, 10 000 minutes of playing time isn't "failing us" just because it isn't, say, 15 000 minutes.

23 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

@Kingstondoes have a point, because the further you go down tiers or quality levels in any country in the world, the more national minutes you see and the less international. So the higher tiers are more weighed towards imports and the lower tiers towards nationals.

This is why I am unconcerned about the question of comparing CPL to MLS, being a higher level of play. In the US MLS teams there are less US minutes than on USL clubs, and so on.

You're both absolutely correct here. CPL will always feature more Canadian minutes as a percentage than MLS. Just as the League 1s will feature more Canadian minutes than CPL. Etc.

The overall point is that there are more Canadians playing at a higher level than there were in 2019, which is undeniably a very, very good thing. And we should continue to strive for more.

As for the reciprocity thing in MLS: it's a separate issue altogether, one that's gotten better over the years but is still not good enough.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

How about actually developing a few Canadian starters for their senior teams via their Academies?

Even then - our youth teams are heavy on MLS Academies players and looking at the results... ouch

[Ansem]

Comes down to what people wants - some are fine with "proving we can hang or we belong". Others wants our National Teams to wins some trophies and be the best.

Is the current system helps us being the best in the region? I doubt it especially when we allow our higher tier clubs to be used to develop depth in the US pool at our own expense on our own soil.

And I always get such a laugh when people go out of their way to defend it - If it's so effective, why aren't the other nations doing it? We're the genius with all the Gold Cups and rarely missing WCs...oh wait!

But hey, to these people - using a proven model is controversial... yet the best soccer nations use that proven model... go figure

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Is the current system helps us being the best in the region?

Based on the most recent regional tournament, the World Cup qualifying, yes, it is helping us to literally be the best team in the region.

Can it, at the same time, be improved?  Also yes.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Kingston said:

Based on the most recent regional tournament, the World Cup qualifying, yes, it is helping us to literally be the best team in the region.

Can it, at the same time, be improved?  Also yes.

You talk like we're going to pop up Davies, David, Eustaquio regularly. My friend - I love the run we had and our current superstars but that's an anomaly -we aren't France, not even the US for that matter and we should take those guys for granted. Injuries happens.

Look at the US and Mexico at the moment - there's no guarantee that we'll produce Davies, Eustaquio or David consistently and I hate to burst your bubble, current system doesn't ensure we dominate this region.

You're perfectly fine with the status quo as long as we keep "improving" or "compete".

Some of us actually want to win and dominate

[Big_M]

The first ever sale from one CPL team to another just happened

Samuel Salter sold from HFX to Atletico

[RS]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

You're perfectly fine with the status quo as long as we keep "improving" or "compete".

That's not what status quo means.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Look at the US and Mexico at the moment - there's no guarantee that we'll produce Davies, Eustaquio or David consistently and I hate to burst your bubble, current system doesn't ensure we dominate this region.

You're perfectly fine with the status quo as long as we keep "improving" or "compete".

Some of us actually want to win and dominate

My issues with the CPL are that it's quite poorly put together and was never, based on the money involved, going to help the development pipeline in a significant way. The issue there being that a low-effort, low impact league can poison the well and prevent actual money from coming into Canadian soccer in a way that makes business sense...which is unfortunately the only way a truly impactful Canadian league is going to happen.

My hopes post-CPL launch was that a team would gain enough traction to bring MLS interest to the market. As is the case with hockey, the most economically feasible path forward is to hitch ourselves to the American system in as many markets as possible and focus on a true development league underneath. The fact that none of the CPL markets are drawing in a meaningful way is...rough.

The idea that the current system is bad because we aren't dominating is hugely short sighted imo. The powers at be that will decide if Canada becomes a dominant force in world soccer are almost entirely economic and cultural -- and we should be doing whatever needs to be done to grow significant investments and popular interest in the sport.

One can argue that the CPL is a long term negative in both of those categories, as well placed as the intentions were. 

[Aird25]

7 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

My issues with the CPL are that it's quite poorly put together and was never, based on the money involved, going to help the development pipeline in a significant way. The issue there being that a low-effort, low impact league can poison the well and prevent actual money from coming into Canadian soccer in a way that makes business sense...which is unfortunately the only way a truly impactful Canadian league is going to happen.

My hopes post-CPL launch was that a team would gain enough traction to bring MLS interest to the market. As is the case with hockey, the most economically feasible path forward is to hitch ourselves to the American system in as many markets as possible and focus on a true development league underneath. The fact that none of the CPL markets are drawing in a meaningful way is...rough.

The idea that the current system is bad because we aren't dominating is hugely short sighted imo. The powers at be that will decide if Canada becomes a dominant force in world soccer are almost entirely economic and cultural -- and we should be doing what needs to be done to grow significant investments and popular interest in the sport.

One can argue that the CPL is a long term negative in both of those categories, as well placed as the intentions were. 

I found one thing I agreed with somewhat, but even then I had to modify it. What would have satisfied your expectations for the league at this stage given the circumstances?

[harrycoyster]

10 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I found one thing I agreed with somewhat, but even then I had to modify it. What would have satisfied your expectations for the league at this stage given the circumstances?

The league needed to spend more time before launch finding investors. Once you launch and losses start piling up, you aren't going to draw in the types of investors MLS gets...you are going to attract the type of investors USL gets. No billionaire wants to be the big fish in a small pond. They much prefer buying into an elite group.

If we couldn't get actual investment and the league needed to start when it did to secure World Cup games, I think cutting down on the one huge cost (travel) that provides no upside to the product or fan experience needed to happen. Launch with Ottawa, HFX, York, Forge, TFCII, Montreal II. With travel costs down six-digits per team, maybe Quebec City, Mississauga, Detroit or Buffalo pop up as options. Then you get to take the millions of dollars that are currently being handed to WestJet and invest in facilities and development; expanding west responsibly as the numbers start to make sense. If we are talking specifically about the future of the national team, I don't think there is anything better that can happen than the launching of 5-10 funded development academies in Eastern Canada that we can throw into the densely populated MLSNext eastern divisions. 

As things stand I think we all know that the CPL is going to live in limbo unless an angel investor comes in or the 26 World Cup provides a sizable boost. The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

Edited February 17, 2023 by harrycoyster

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

The league needed to spend more time before launch finding investors. Once you launch and losses start piling up, you aren't going to draw in the types of investors MLS gets...you are going to attract the type of investors USL gets. No billionaire wants to be the big fish in a small pond. They much prefer buying into an elite group.

If we couldn't get actual investment and the league needed to start when it did to secure World Cup games, I think cutting down on the one huge cost (travel) that provides no upside to the product or fan experience needed to happen. Launch with Ottawa, HFX, York, Forge, TFCII, Montreal II. With travel costs down six-digits per team, maybe Quebec City, Mississauga, Detroit or Buffalo pop up as options. Then you get to take the millions of dollars that are currently being handed to WestJet and invest in facilities and development; expanding west responsibly as the numbers start to make sense. If we are talking specifically about the future of the national team, I don't think there is anything better that can happen than the launching of 5-10 funded development academies in Eastern Canada that we can throw into the densely populated MLSNext eastern divisions. 

As things stand I think we all know that the CPL is going to live in limbo unless an angel investor comes in or the 26 World Cup provides a sizable boost. The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

CPL isn't MLS - we can all agree on that, doesn't mean it can't succeed. It's like people forget how close that league was from folding and went to its own setbacks before becoming what it is. If you expected CPL to be like MLS right from the bat, you had unrealistic expectations from the start

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ansem

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

The league needed to spend more time before launch finding investors. Once you launch and losses start piling up, you aren't going to draw in the types of investors MLS gets...you are going to attract the type of investors USL gets. No billionaire wants to be the big fish in a small pond. They much prefer buying into an elite group.

If we couldn't get actual investment and the league needed to start when it did to secure World Cup games, I think cutting down on the one huge cost (travel) that provides no upside to the product or fan experience needed to happen. Launch with Ottawa, HFX, York, Forge, TFCII, Montreal II. With travel costs down six-digits per team, maybe Quebec City, Mississauga, Detroit or Buffalo pop up as options. Then you get to take the millions of dollars that are currently being handed to WestJet and invest in facilities and development; expanding west responsibly as the numbers start to make sense. If we are talking specifically about the future of the national team, I don't think there is anything better that can happen than the launching of 5-10 funded development academies in Eastern Canada that we can throw into the densely populated MLSNext eastern divisions. 

As things stand I think we all know that the CPL is going to live in limbo unless an angel investor comes in or the 26 World Cup provides a sizable boost. The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

Forgive me for struggling to transition away from the completely opposing topic of the week (owners of CPL clubs funneling money from a non-profit organization) towards this completely flipped perspective, but why does every CPL detractor point towards MLS as their shining star? As far as I can tell most MLS clubs still lose substantially more money every season than all the CPL clubs combined. There must be better models we can look at, unless sports teams aren't always about making money?

Regardless, CPL is growing, there are teams waiting in the wings to join, existing owners are starting new teams, and infrastructure is being improved in several markets this offseason. 

We already have Div 3 teams and MLS Next teams for investors interested. It's mad to say there's no upside to the product or fan experience by having teams in Halifax, Victoria, Calgary etc. These are some of our best markets. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

...As things stand I think we all know that the CPL is going to live in limbo unless an angel investor comes in or the 26 World Cup provides a sizable boost. The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

...unless Rick Westhead is right about what they are raking in through CSB. Seriously doubt he is though. Could quibble about some of the details such as I think a bus travel conference is also possible out west if the WHL can do it and would mention London and K/W before bringing Buffalo and Detroit into it but agree that they went for the wrong economic model and should have worked cooperatively with MLS rather than viewing it as the enemy.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ftduck]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

 

Obviously. How about we give it time to grow. Do we need to recap the shit show that was the last 4 years?

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

The league needed to spend more time before launch finding investors. Once you launch and losses start piling up, you aren't going to draw in the types of investors MLS gets...you are going to attract the type of investors USL gets. No billionaire wants to be the big fish in a small pond. They much prefer buying into an elite group.

If we couldn't get actual investment and the league needed to start when it did to secure World Cup games, I think cutting down on the one huge cost (travel) that provides no upside to the product or fan experience needed to happen. Launch with Ottawa, HFX, York, Forge, TFCII, Montreal II. With travel costs down six-digits per team, maybe Quebec City, Mississauga, Detroit or Buffalo pop up as options. Then you get to take the millions of dollars that are currently being handed to WestJet and invest in facilities and development; expanding west responsibly as the numbers start to make sense. If we are talking specifically about the future of the national team, I don't think there is anything better that can happen than the launching of 5-10 funded development academies in Eastern Canada that we can throw into the densely populated MLSNext eastern divisions. 

As things stand I think we all know that the CPL is going to live in limbo unless an angel investor comes in or the 26 World Cup provides a sizable boost. The current model isn't sustainable without growth.

It comes back to what you think the purpose of the CPL is.

The CPL was never going to start at the level MLS enjoys today with its current expansion teams.  Personally, I don't think the CPL will ever catch up to MLS, but that's fine.  That's not the purpose.

The purpose of the CPL is to provide professional playing opportunities for Canadian players (while hopefully giving fans a lot of fun and ideally even earning owners some money so that they do more of it).  In order to accomplish that, I, and probably most people here, believe the league needs to operate as a full national league.  I don't believe that some sort of regional bus league, glorified L1O is going to attract enough money to pay even modest pro salaries.  Such a league would definitely reduce expenses, but would reduce revenues proportionately more and so would fail to provide professional playing spots.

You are correct that the current model isn't sustainable without further revenue growth.  So the experiment that is the CPL could still fail, which would greatly disappoint probably everyone single person who posts on these boards.  It is easy to find problem points like Edmonton folding and low attendance in many markets.  It is also easy to find high points, however, like expansion in Vancouver and good and/or rising attendance in other markets.  Overall, I think the positives currently outweigh the negatives so I'm optimistic this young league will reach a sustainable state.

[K Edgar]

Canadian NextPro teams, TFC II, etc would be an interesting comparison. Oh, and nice to see Valour close to the top of a list - doesn't happen often

Edited February 17, 2023 by K Edgar