CPL General

[-Hammer-]

18 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

CONCACAF league, not Champions League. There's a difference. Still been fun though. 

That's right, only Forge had a Champion's League run, which was very short but still great.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, Kingston said:

...I doubt anyone really expected CPL players to be getting regular national team time by now...

Have always resisted the temptation of taking a trip down memory lane with posts from 2017 or so but suffice to say you doubt wrong. It wasn't just on here. Rob Gale claimed at one point that he was going to be able to find MLS level talent to play for the Valour before signing the likes of Adam Mittar, Calum Ferguson and Stephen Hoyle.

[Unnamed Trialist]

27 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

CONCACAF league, not Champions League. There's a difference. Still been fun though. 

They played Cruz Azul, probably the most storied and historically powerful club in the entire region, along with Club America. 

Oh, they played at Azteca. 

But remind us of the difference again.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, K Edgar said:

Just for fun, TFC last year was 46.0%.

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

They played Cruz Azul, probably the most storied and historically powerful club in the entire region, along with Club America. 

Oh, they played at Azteca. 

But remind us of the difference again.

1) Forge played 1 round of the Champions League, which isn't a "run".  Every other game has been in the League against Central American countries. 

2) Still fun though. 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

The league is 5 years old (2 season during lockdown) - I belive the goal is to have lots of National team players having played in CPL in their career. As of now, Bustos, Didic, Waterman, McNaughton and those in youth teams like Abzi, now Montgomery, Norman Jr, Daniels, Tabla, Farsi, Meilleur-Giguere, Bontis, Ferdinand, Poku, Catavolo, Assi, Coimbra, Habibullah, De Rosario and others I might have missed.

Most would agree it isn't a bad start.

It is a very good start and will continue to get better.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

That's the thing, define "we" --> "we" as Canadian soccer fans of those 3 MLS clubs fans? Big difference here.

Overall, we DO NOT have our cake and eat it too simply due to the roster rules. I think I'm on record saying many times that if there was at least reciprocity where ONLY Canadians are considered as domestic on Canadian clubs than I would be fully supportive of MLS staying here. Now that would having our cake and eat it too.

Seems like some are getting the habit of projecting their benefit of being an MLS club fan onto the rest of the country. Most of the rest would agree that these roster rules are weird

Speaking as a Canadian soccer fan, we do have a big benefit by having the three Canadian MLS teams.

Yes, the MLS roster rules are weird in many ways, but even with both Canadians and Americans counting as domestics, we see a lot of Canadian talent passing through those three teams.  In fact, more than half our World Cup roster plays or played for one of those three teams.  And they continue to be a local option for young players on their way up beyond the CPL.  Call it cake, doughnuts, or pie, but I see having both CPL and MLS teams in Canada as win-win.

[Kingston]

22 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Have always resisted the temptation of taking a trip down memory lane with posts from 2017 or so but suffice to say you doubt wrong. It wasn't just on here. Rob Gale claimed at one point that he was going to be able to find MLS level talent to play for the Valour before signing the likes of Adam Mittar, Calum Ferguson and Stephen Hoyle.

Do you think that's a bit of hyperbole by a guy who wants to drum up interest in his new team or an actual expectation?

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Speaking as a Canadian soccer fan, we do have a big benefit by having the three Canadian MLS teams.

Yes, the MLS roster rules are weird in many ways, but even with both Canadians and Americans counting as domestics, we see a lot of Canadian talent passing through those three teams.  In fact, more than half our World Cup roster plays or played for one of those three teams.  And they continue to be a local option for young players on their way up beyond the CPL.  Call it cake, doughnuts, or pie, but I see having both CPL and MLS teams in Canada as win-win.

We benefit but its not accurate that it's a win-win

Having to compete against Americans for domestic spots in Canada borderlines makes us "internationals" on our own soil where Americans only have to compete against one another for domestic spots on US soil --> we are at a disadvantage. Unless that changes, you'll always have people wanting CPL to be the only league in Canada, that's more minutes for more Canadians.

As for the level of play, that won't change the fact that the best Canadian players will go to MLS or abroad

[narduch]

33 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Just for fun, TFC last year was 46.0%.

Doubt they hit 25% this year 

[Kingston]

38 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Having to compete against Americans for domestic spots in Canada borderlines makes us "internationals" on our own soil where Americans only have to compete against one another for domestic spots on US soil --> we are at a disadvantage. 

a)  Under the new (~three years old now) rules, Canadians who come up through the MLS system also count as domestics on US MLS teams.  So it isn't quite that clear cut.

b)  Even if I agreed that we are at a disadvantage, a disadvantage compared to what?  This is not a choice between the current arrangement and three MLS-level teams stocked entirely with Canadians.  It is a choice between the current arrangement and no Canadian teams at that level.  I like the current arrangement a lot better than some perfect but completely imaginary teams.

43 minutes ago, Ansem said:

As for the level of play, that won't change the fact that the best Canadian players will go to MLS or abroad

The very best will but it is a lot easier with the Canadian MLS teams who do, after all, host a lot more Canadians than the other MLS teams.

Otherwise its like saying we don't need the CPL because the best L1O players will still find their way up the global soccer pyramid.  Technically true but I'd much rather have the CPL providing more playing spots and an intermediate rung on the ladder.

 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Rob Gale claimed at one point that he was going to be able to find MLS level talent to play for the Valour

So like Pantemis, Sirois, Rea and many others throughout the league?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Aird25

[Ansem]

37 minutes ago, Kingston said:

a)  Under the new (~three years old now) rules, Canadians who come up through the MLS system also count as domestics on US MLS teams.  So it isn't quite that clear cut.

insufficient - Most of our pool exist outside of those system, that's a lot of guys being left out and we have plenty of examples of such players including those who had to play US college to get drafted.

 

37 minutes ago, Kingston said:

b)  Even if I agreed that we are at a disadvantage, a disadvantage compared to what?  This is not a choice between the current arrangement and three MLS-level teams stocked entirely with Canadians.  It is a choice between the current arrangement and no Canadian teams at that level.  I like the current arrangement a lot better than some perfect but completely imaginary teams.

No need to move the goal post, I'm not advocating for Canadian players to just walk into the pitch or on the roster. Minutes have to be earned and they aren't entitled to them. Reciprocity on the roster rules isn't an "extreme" like the other other extreme you're implying that we want all 3 teams to be like Bilbao.

 

37 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Otherwise its like saying we don't need the CPL because the best L1O players will still find their way up the global soccer pyramid.  Technically true but I'd much rather have the CPL providing more playing spots and an intermediate rung on the ladder.

Not a great example... What's the point of the other leagues having domestic rules then? They're all dumb - we're the genius!

I don't mean to be rude but sometimes I'm just baffled at the level of rationalization to excuse this. You can still believe in MLS in Canada and wanting changes - both aren't mutually exclusive.

I find TFC fans the one rationalizing this the most...

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't mean to be rude but sometimes I'm just baffled at the level of rationalization to excuse this. You can still believe in MLS in Canada and wanting changes - both aren't mutually exclusive.

Fair point but, without meaning to put words in your mouth, you come across very much as "down with MLS in Canada!"

If all you're looking for is a change in roster rules, well, yes, that would be nice.  However, I'd much rather have these three teams doing what they're doing than have nothing at that level in Canada.  On balance, we're much farther ahead with them than without them. 

I guess I'm baffled at the level of hostility directed by some toward our Canadian MLS teams rather than supporting all the Canadian teams.

[shermanator]

How pathetic is your life that you have to spend year after year after fucking year railing against a league that is providing opportunity for hundreds of players, coaches, operations, management and media just because you're still butthurt that the London Lasers folded 30 years ago? 

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, Kingston said:

you come across very much as "down with MLS in Canada!"

As I said many times, If there's no reciprocity!!!

24 minutes ago, Kingston said:

If all you're looking for is a change in roster rules, well, yes, that would be nice.  However, I'd much rather have these three teams doing what they're doing than have nothing at that level in Canada.  On balance, we're much farther ahead with them than without them. 

I guess I'm baffled at the level of hostility directed by some toward our Canadian MLS teams rather than supporting all the Canadian teams.

Equally baffled on how much we're willing to give to that league (3 of North America's biggest markets, Canadian dollars, etc...) who cares very little about us*

*(they were shamed and threatened into amending the domestic rules for MLS academies players to be domestic).

You think they ever amend this rule if Montagliani doesn't threatened them with yanking the 3 clubs out of MLS?

It's more about fairness than hostility.

If reciprocity is too much to ask the MLS Commish - might as well give all of Canada to CPL.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ansem

[red card]

Now everybody else playing time in the CPL. Hart & Telfer driving T&T to the top.

 

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, red card said:

Now everybody else playing time in the CPL. Hart & Telfer driving T&T to the top.

 

Canada has actually done quite a bit for T and T's soccer program.  Telfer, Singh, Ranjitsingh.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

15 hours ago, Ansem said:

As I said many times, If there's no reciprocity!!!

Equally baffled on how much we're willing to give to that league (3 of North America's biggest markets, Canadian dollars, etc...) who cares very little about us*

*(they were shamed and threatened into amending the domestic rules for MLS academies players to be domestic).

You think they ever amend this rule if Montagliani doesn't threatened them with yanking the 3 clubs out of MLS?

It's more about fairness than hostility.

If reciprocity is too much to ask the MLS Commish - might as well give all of Canada to CPL.

You are absolutely correct: there must be reciprocity. 

There isn't, and that discriminates Canadian players. It also creates an unfair advantage for Americans in Canada. 

This lack of reciprocity has been agreed upon by the CSA since day one, with hardly any attempts to redress it. US Soccer seems fine with it. We have heard that with expansion, the new Canadian MLS clubs preferred to keep things unbalanced because they thought they would not be able to find enough Canadians and would need to draw on journeymen Americans, an odd bit of logic. 

Notably, in the movement of labor, or in free trade in North America, principles of reciprocity are central to negotiations. Historically, and I have this from colleagues who are professional historians, Canada has consistently undersold its case in the US, going on close to a hundred years, accepting bilateral disadvantages of all kinds, including in the movement of labour, because Canadian leaders were reluctant to lobby their case in the US. Even when American politicians, businessmen or organisations were demonstrated to be more open to creating the terms for reciprocity and fairness than Canadians gave them credit for. This is well documented.

Specifically to soccer, USL has historically had reciprocity, so that Canadians are not discriminated in lower division US they way they are in MLS. I am not sure if this is different now, but it wasn't historically. 

The organisation that has to lead this is the CSA, because they are the ones to put it on the table in ongoing talks related to MLS sanctioning in Canada. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 hours ago, Kingston said:

... Even if I agreed that we are at a disadvantage, a disadvantage compared to what? ...

We don't get absolutely everything we want so let's pull the plug on having three teams that can average 15-30k with budgets that can sustain a proper fully funded pro level youth development pathway. Those would be the actions of someone with the emotional maturity of a petulant child.

If the Americans and FIFA are going to let us into a USSF sanctioned D1 that is pretty much inevitably going to be a far stronger league than anything that operates in Canada only then make the best possible use of the cards you have been dealt with and use the opportunity for all its worth so the CMNT goes from being a non-factor in the hex to finishing above the USMNT in the latest octagonal.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

Canadian minutes since 2019

Including MLS clubs

 

[narduch]

25 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Canadian minutes since 2019

Including MLS clubs

 

Data proof of why we need CPL and why the 3 MLS clubs are failing us.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are absolutely correct: there must be reciprocity. 

There isn't, and that discriminates Canadian players. It also creates an unfair advantage for Americans in Canada. 

This lack of reciprocity has been agreed upon by the CSA since day one, with hardly any attempts to redress it. US Soccer seems fine with it. We have heard that with expansion, the new Canadian MLS clubs preferred to keep things unbalanced because they thought they would not be able to find enough Canadians and would need to draw on journeymen Americans, an odd bit of logic. 

Notably, in the movement of labor, or in free trade in North America, principles of reciprocity are central to negotiations. Historically, and I have this from colleagues who are professional historians, Canada has consistently undersold its case in the US, going on close to a hundred years, accepting bilateral disadvantages of all kinds, including in the movement of labour, because Canadian leaders were reluctant to lobby their case in the US. Even when American politicians, businessmen or organisations were demonstrated to be more open to creating the terms for reciprocity and fairness than Canadians gave them credit for. This is well documented.

Specifically to soccer, USL has historically had reciprocity, so that Canadians are not discriminated in lower division US they way they are in MLS. I am not sure if this is different now, but it wasn't historically. 

The organisation that has to lead this is the CSA, because they are the ones to put it on the table in ongoing talks related to MLS sanctioning in Canada. 

If they refuse to give us reciprocity, at the very least we should no longer consider Americans as 'domestics' on the 3 MLS clubs. Its too bad the CSA is useless.

That seems pretty fair to me.

If you say its not fair competitively? Montreal disproved that last season.

And as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe light a fire under the asses of the 3 MLS clubs so that hey actually take player development more seriously.

[narduch]

21 hours ago, Aird25 said:

When CPL was being conceived we had a pretty large contingent of national team callups still playing for Unattached FC. Detractors conveniently leave that out when implying the league isn't meeting expectations

Remember in 2019 Carducci did earn a senior national team call up while playing CPL. That was fully deserved too based on the GK situation at the time.

This isn't an indictment on the CPL. The fact of the matter is the CanMNT has simply improved A LOT in 4 years. Hell a guy like Tiebert in MLS would have been a shoe in in 2018 if he had his 2022 MLS minutes.

[Kingston]

17 minutes ago, narduch said:

Data proof of why we need CPL and why the 3 MLS clubs are failing us.

If we expanded that chart to the L1O teams, it would probably show >90% Canadian minutes for the L1O teams.

Is that proof why we need L1O and the CPL is failing us?

Why isn't this chart a proof that, great, we've got thousands of minutes of playing time from teams in different leagues?  If you want to see more from the MLS teams, great, but providing, say, 10 000 minutes of playing time isn't "failing us" just because it isn't, say, 15 000 minutes.

[Kingston]

22 minutes ago, narduch said:

Maybe light a fire under the asses of the 3 MLS clubs so that hey actually take player development more seriously.

What, specifically, would it look like to you if those three clubs were taking player development seriously?