CPL General

[Stryker911]

I don't know if anyone that's had any say reads these, but I really hope the player fantasy league from 2 years ago comes back. The link to what it was is below.

https://northerntribune.ca/canadian-premier-league-fantasy-league/

The league run fantasy that was just match predictions I lost interest in after the first week, while the season prior I was engaged all season. I don't see why they both can't run.

[yellowsweatygorilla]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Sigma is an outlier in terms of what the D3 sanctioned leagues have been able to provide in that context precisely because they also have run a successful elite academy format that attracted a lot of the top prospects from across the GTA and gave them the best possible level of coaching:

 

You could probably add what Carmine has done with Vaughan Azzurri to that list though. Half our national team came through that development pathway.

[Kent]

Regarding L1O player development. Here is an article from 2019.

https://www.league1ontario.com/news_article/show/995677

At that time, 11 former Sigma players had contracts with CPL, and 18 from other teams. It includes players from Vaughan Azzuri, Alliance United, TFC III, Woodbridge Strikers, North Mississauga SC, Aurora FC, Kingston Clippers, Masters FA, and Unionville Milliken.

This article, including highlighting several Sigma standout players and TFC III as well, also mentions Allistair Johnston and Dayne St. Clair from Vaughan Azzuri.

https://canpl.ca/article/5-bet-professional-campaigns-from-league1-ontario-mens-grads

I couldn't find an old article I remember which listed all the players that had turned pro after playing in L1O. It was from before CPL. I don't remember exactly but I think it was on the order of somewhere between 50-100 players that had turned pro I believe.

I think L1O, PLSQ (I'm not an expert, but at the very least they have produced CPL standouts Diyaddine Abzi and Mo Farsi), and the upcoming L1BC, are doing fine at filling in that Easton Report layer of the pyramid.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The former participation of TFC III that you mention in passing has definitely helped on L1O's overall player development stats.

Oakville would probably be the poster child for what's wrong with L1O. Achieving diddlysquat on pro level player development despite huge registration numbers achieved largely through being a house league baby sitting service.

Lots of clout at OSA level through those registration numbers so have been protected from competition from recent immigrant community oriented clubs who would probably do a much better job at the elite talent end of things by the franchise systems implemented for OPDL and L1O.

Hopefully new teams like Simcoe Rovers and Electric City that are further away from Toronto draw significant crowds this summer and start to move the league beyond close friends and family of the players mode into a genuine local spectator event that could sustain something legitimately semi-pro. Won't be easy but a mini-Halifax scenario unfolding might help nudge things in a better direction.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[MM3/MM2/MM]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

start to move the league beyond close friends and family of the players mode into a genuine local spectator event 

The PDL Ottawa Fury were not much more then that, dismal attendance, minimal media attention, plenty far from Toronto.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...but FC London and the Victoria Highlanders could both draw into four figures in a PDL context on occasion. Helps on media attention if you are in a mid-sized market rather than a city with CFL and NHL teams.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...but FC London and the Victoria Highlanders could both draw into four figures in a PDL context on occasion. Helps on media attention if you are in a mid-sized market rather than a city with CFL and NHL teams.

The Victoria Highlanders also folded their PDL team twice because it was unsustainable, and the "draw four figures" would be the rarity not the norm.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I wrote on occasion rather than the norm for a reason. What are you trying to prove at this point?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I wrote on occasion rather than the norm for a reason. What are you trying to prove at this point?

Mostly that the PDL wasn't the "parallel to the Easton Report" that you've claimed it was, while the the League One's so clearly are.  PDL has been fine for college players out of season, but really hasn't done much to advance the game in Canada.  the League One's have that opportunity.

[Kent]

21 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The former participation of TFC III that you mention in passing has definitely helped on L1O's overall player development stats.

Oakville would probably be the poster child for what's wrong with L1O. Achieving diddlysquat on pro level player development despite huge registration numbers achieved largely through being a house league baby sitting service.

Lots of clout at OSA level through those registration numbers so have been protected from competition from recent immigrant community oriented clubs who would probably do a much better job at the elite talent end of things by the franchise systems implemented for OPDL and L1O.

Hopefully new teams like Simcoe Rovers and Electric City that are further away from Toronto draw significant crowds this summer and start to move the league beyond close friends and family of the players mode into a genuine local spectator event that could sustain something legitimately semi-pro. Won't be easy but a mini-Halifax scenario unfolding might help nudge things in a better direction.

Paragraph 1 response. I listed 8 other teams that produced CPL players for year 1.

Paragraph 2 response. Oakville's failure at producing pro players I think shows the power of L1O vs just having pro team academies. With L1O (and PLSQ, NCAA, and other leagues) doing the development, you have a large player pool. If we didn't have those leagues and instead had academy teams for each pro team in the country, then the player pool would be much smaller, and we may have a lot more of the Allistair Johnston's, Tajon Buchanan's, etc that get passed up by the pro academies because they weren't ready at the right time, only without these other team's/leagues to pick them up, they wouldn't make it in the game. An Ontario based team can try to find players from a 20ish team league in L1O instead of looking within their couple of academy teams (U-23, U-20, U-18, etc.).

Paragraph 3 response. I agree that the OPDL should be more inclusive. I don't really know what's going on there. The one thing I heard that seems plausible is that one of the main sticking points preventing teams like Sigma from being in OPDL is a lack of a girls branch of the club. I'm not sure if that is still true or not. I can see how the OSA may want to mandate both boys and girls in order to be considered a major club, but I also can see how it could be more merit based as well, separately for boys and girls.

Paragraph 4 response. Totally agree. I like that the geographical footprint of L1O is growing, and I do hope we get some teams with some actual good attendance. I know games like the finals get good crowds, but it's harder to come by numbers for other games. Rocket Robin's estimates are probably the only real source of this info that I have seen, and him being Toronto based means we don't see how many make it out to games in places like Ottawa, London, or Windsor, further away from Toronto.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Mostly that the PDL wasn't the "parallel to the Easton Report" that you've claimed it was, while the the League One's so clearly are.  PDL has been fine for college players out of season, but really hasn't done much to advance the game in Canada.  the League One's have that opportunity.

Why would you say that when the League Ones are summer leagues, lasting 3-4 months? We're talking about seasons of 12-16 games, if lucky. In fact, given our weather would allow at least 6 months in Ontario and Québec, we play maybe half that, and interestingly enough: the months universities are out. 

A bit more precision is needed on this, I'd say. But really what we need is for League Ones everywhere to do more than PDL. It is hard to argue they do. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Mostly that the PDL wasn't the "parallel to the Easton Report" that you've claimed it was, while the the League One's so clearly are...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that because there was a clear U-23 focus involved in the recommendations and I don't accept that's there with either L1O or PLSQ. Nor should there be in my opinion if those leagues are going to provide the best possible calibre of soccer locally in the Toronto and Montreal areas with the longest possible outdoor season. Having a short season format PDL type U-23 coast-to-coast league with three CHL style regional conferences and open age longer season format semi-pro leagues centred on the largest cities isn't an either/or scenario. There is a niche for both.

59 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...A bit more precision is needed on this, I'd say. But really what we need is for League Ones everywhere to do more than PDL. It is hard to argue they do. 

An important angle to ponder on that is what exactly would a newly formed provincial League One do in Alberta that isn't already being done by the AMSL?

In Ontario, there are now three iterations of provincial association masterplan league running in parallel in the GTA, i.e. the OSL which from memory dates back to the 80s, the CSL which is the remnant of the CPSL launched in the late 90s and L1O from the 2010s. It's far from a safe assumption that all the best players and clubs are involved with the latest masterplan.

In BC, the VMSL started out as a provincial masterplan league and the PCSL apparently was reconstituted shortly thereafter:

https://pcsl.org/about

...By 1973 the Pacific Coast Soccer League, the Mainland Senior Soccer League and the Intercity Junior League merged to form the BC Senior Soccer League, which in due course became what is today the Vancouver Metro Soccer League (VMSL).

Shortly thereafter however the Pacific Coast Soccer league was reconstituted as a separate entity offering a summer season, and has continued to thrive as an independent league ever since...

Why does the wheel need to keep being reinvented on this stuff?

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on that because there was a clear U-23 focus involved in the recommendations and I don't accept that's there with either L1O or PLSQ. Nor should there be in my opinion if those leagues are going to provide the best possible calibre of soccer locally in the Toronto and Montreal areas with the longest possible outdoor season. Having a short season format PDL type U-23 coast-to-coast league with three CHL style regional conferences and open age longer season format semi-pro leagues centred on the largest cities isn't an either/or scenario. There is a niche for both.

An important angle to ponder on that is what exactly would a newly formed provincial League One do in Alberta that isn't already being done by the AMSL?

In Ontario, there are now three iterations of provincial association masterplan league running in parallel in the GTA, i.e. the OSL which from memory dates back to the 80s, the CSL which is the remnant of the CPSL launched in the late 90s and L1O from the 2010s. It's far from a safe assumption that all the best players and clubs are involved with the latest masterplan.

In BC, the VMSL started out as a provincial masterplan league and the PCSL apparently was reconstituted shortly thereafter:

https://pcsl.org/about

...By 1973 the Pacific Coast Soccer League, the Mainland Senior Soccer League and the Intercity Junior League merged to form the BC Senior Soccer League, which in due course became what is today the Vancouver Metro Soccer League (VMSL).

Shortly thereafter however the Pacific Coast Soccer league was reconstituted as a separate entity offering a summer season, and has continued to thrive as an independent league ever since...

Why does the wheel need to keep being reinvented on this stuff?

Because in Canada we refuse to establish the terms for tiered, competitive federated football, which is what you get in 75% of the world and in all the historically successful football nations with solid pro leagues. 

And yes, going back to a premise in the Easton Report: you can establish tiers by creating regionalised divisions to reduce travel.

There are two main consequences of this negligence:

1-the soccer system in Canada is vulnerable to corruption, since academies can charge large sums to unsuspecting parents without ever having to demonstrate whether they are doing a good job. Basically, that non-profit provincial SAs, with a degree of government funding, are behoven to profiteering clubs. 

2-the mechanisms for identifying and growing talent are extremely flawed, since we cannot ensure the best are playing the best. And we cannot ensure that those who are talented but can't pay are given a chance to have their say.

The League Ones attempt to whitewash these historical failures, as do the High Performance leagues. But they are all based on a franchise mentality, of handing out rights to play in one or the other, and continue to ignore promotion and relegation as the true test of club and coaching quality.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Why would you say that when the League Ones are summer leagues, lasting 3-4 months? We're talking about seasons of 12-16 games, if lucky. In fact, given our weather would allow at least 6 months in Ontario and Québec, we play maybe half that, and interestingly enough: the months universities are out. 

A bit more precision is needed on this, I'd say. But really what we need is for League Ones everywhere to do more than PDL. It is hard to argue they do. 

Because the PDL will never be more than what it is - a few extra games for college kids.  The League Ones have the opportunity to be something more.  I don't disagree that there's a lot of work to be done to get them there.

[brianjc]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Having a short season format PDL type U-23 coast-to-coast league with three CHL style regional conferences and open age longer season format semi-pro leagues centred on the largest cities isn't an either/or scenario. There is a niche for both.

Is Canada's junior-hockey development model broken? - Victoria Times Colonist 

Would not younger players benefit by playing with and against older players to improve their development??   

No NEXT Pro? No Problem! - Mount Royal Soccer   Luis Binks, who played in England before joining the Impact called U-23 soccer in England fake and preferred the model used in Spain where B teams play in the league pyramid against other first teams where youngsters are exposed to older players.

Just a thought.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, brianjc said:

...No NEXT Pro? No Problem! - Mount Royal Soccer   Luis Binks, who played in England before joining the Impact called U-23 soccer in England fake and preferred the model used in Spain where B teams play in the league pyramid against other first teams where youngsters are exposed to older players.

Just a thought.

I think part of the reason that MLS want to have independent clubs in MLS Next Pro is probably to provide some of that exposure to older players but they'll need to attract a lot more than just Rochester to make that work.

I'm not at all sold on the English style of U-23 league as being the way to go on development which is why going back to around 2018 I was posting on here about affiliated clubs in smaller markets with no MLS branding being a possible compromise that should be explored to try to get the top Canadian MLS prospects into CanPL and also boost the number of financially stable CanPL clubs without having any of the issues on optics that go with having MLS II branded teams in the standings.

Safe to say that didn't go down well as many posters with an MLS vs CanPL mindset didn't seem to be able to grasp that an affiliate is not necessarily the same thing as a reserve team. The ship has very much sailed now anyway as MLS have come up with another solution in the shape of MLS Next Pro on how to have fully pro U-23 type teams sanctioned in a Canadian context again. Given MLS is still a single entity I seriously doubt the Impact will be able to stay out for long because it looks like participation is mandatory.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Because in Canada we refuse to establish the terms for tiered, competitive federated football, which is what you get in 75% of the world and in all the historically successful football nations with solid pro leagues. 

And yes, going back to a premise in the Easton Report: you can establish tiers by creating regionalised divisions to reduce travel.

There are two main consequences of this negligence:

1-the soccer system in Canada is vulnerable to corruption, since academies can charge large sums to unsuspecting parents without ever having to demonstrate whether they are doing a good job. Basically, that non-profit provincial SAs, with a degree of government funding, are behoven to profiteering clubs. 

2-the mechanisms for identifying and growing talent are extremely flawed, since we cannot ensure the best are playing the best. And we cannot ensure that those who are talented but can't pay are given a chance to have their say.

The League Ones attempt to whitewash these historical failures, as do the High Performance leagues. But they are all based on a franchise mentality, of handing out rights to play in one or the other, and continue to ignore promotion and relegation as the true test of club and coaching quality.

Yeah, even if L1O keeps admitting teams into it's system the way it has, they have enough teams now that they can have promotion and relegation within their system. I'd like to see that, and if they can connect it to other leagues as well, even better.

[ted]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Because the PDL will never be more than what it is - a few extra games for college kids.  The League Ones have the opportunity to be something more.  I don't disagree that there's a lot of work to be done to get them there.

I agree with your assessment of the PDL but L1BC as currently constituted is exactly the same. Where I think we can agree is that it would be easier to extend the season for L1BC than would to get the PDL to do it.

[Free kick]

On 1/4/2022 at 3:56 PM, Watchmen said:

Except we are getting that league as well - that's the emphasis on the League 1s. Regionalised leagues with a U-23 emphasis. And it's what the country needs as well.

I'm in the camp (still) that I don't think the CPL lasts long term. But, full credit to the owners and individuals attempting to make a go of it. Hope it does work out. And frankly the "but the CEBL is doing this too!" argument doesn't sway me because I'm not sold on that league lasting either.

There are important differences with the CEBL.  First is the resume of the management types who were hired for the CEBL front office.   They all seem to have an extensive business focused background (ie:  lots of sports management expertise).  
 

Secondly,  CEBL (unlike the Can PL) put a lot more emphasis on the product.  And by that i mean that they made sure that the players can make a reasonable living with a CEBL salary.  That way you can keep a canadian quota while at the same time attract some pretty good american Ncaa div 1 talent that will elevate the quality of the league and hence helps the canadian talent that is in it.   For example,  the CEBL MVP from last year, Xavier Moon, just signed with the LA clippers and there is strong word that his stay in LA will become permanent.  There are two other CEBL players who recently signed 10 day contracts in the NBA (the top Basketball league in the world).  Are the CanPl players getting sniffs from the top soccer leagues?
 

Finally,  the canadian talent playing in the CEBL is pretty much the entire national team for Canada (Ie.: for games where NBA talent is unavailable).   With Canadian CEBL players,  canada has proven that they can win in FIBA americas competition and even qualify for the WC.  Could you win and qualify in Concacaf with CanPL talent?  

Edited January 10, 2022 by Free kick

[Big_M]

players dont make a living in the cebl...they are there to play in the summer and make some extra money...its a three month season and salary is per game so on paper if you miss a certain game for whatever reason, you dont get paid

[Free kick]

They also play in the Champions league 

https://www.fiba.basketball/bclamericas/21-22

thats not in the summer (ie.: it Dec thru Apr)

Edited January 10, 2022 by Free kick

[Big_M]

...which is not relevant when it comes to the talk of making a living...they are sending out an all-star squad of available players and around half of them didnt even play in cebl in 2021 and only a couple were even with the edmonton stingers

[Big_M]

+ its one team of seven going out there

[m-g-williams]

So, the news out of Edmonton obviously isn't good, though I don't think anyone here will say that they're shocked given what we had been hearing for a while about Fath wanting to get out. While it does leave me concerned about the viability of the Eddies (unless they can finally get a decent stadium/location), I'm actually not too concerned about the viability of the league, for a few reasons. 

First, we're all aware of how things didn't pan out in with the CSL, and the collapse of NASL 2.0 is still fresh in our minds. But instead of having fly-by-night ownership changes desperately made just to keep things afloat, it sounds like the team and the league are really being thorough and making sure they have the right fit. If the rumours are true that OEG - the biggest sports investment group in the city, and one of the largest in Alberta - had made overtures and been turned *down*, then it sounds like the team and the league are healthy enough to pick and choose what's best rather than just what's available. I know that there are a hundred possible nuances to consider (what were the terms/duration of the proposed OEG takeover, did they commit to any stadium relocation/redesign plans, what was their long-term financial risk tolerance, etc.), and the lack of a rush for new ownership could well be due to there not being many contenders out there. But if the CPL can politely say "Thanks, but no thanks" in this situation, I actually feel a bit reassured. 

Second, and in my mind, possibly the more important point, is sponsorships. When I look at the fact that, despite the pandemic, the league-wide sponsorships have actually *increased* in the last two years - Derby Star, Hello Fresh, Couche-Tard/Mac's, Oat Canada, Jones Deslaurier, etc. - and others seem to have solidified with new/increased advertising - Gatorade, Westjet, AllState, etc. - that tells me that the league is not only receiving new (and obviously needed) revenue, but that decently large players in the private sector see this whole venture as a worthwhile investment. And looking at all of the local sponsors that got air time through the Island Games and the Kick-Off this year, I was actually surprised by sheer number of local sponsors that have lined up. Some even appear to be kicking in major cash (e.g., Starlight buying the naming rights for Pacific FC's home stadium), with others really solidifying the team as part of the community (e.g., Garrison Brewing Co. and New Scotland Clothing in Halifax). Then you have some of the bigger sponsorships that are obviously held by CSB and not specific to the CPL (e.g., Oat Canada), but as the league is still a beneficiary, it still signals to me that this must be seen as worth it (I admit to not being perfectly versed in the functioning of CSB though, so if there's something I'm missing here, jump in). If I were running a business and asked to sponsor a league that was still in its infancy and had reduced/non-existent attendance for the last two years, I'd have to be damn sure it's viable and gives me some kind of a return before I lay down a dollar. 

I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not a specialist in finance or sports operations, and I could well be wrong on every point I've laid out. I want the league to work as much as anyone here, but I'm also not so blind as to think that there aren't problems/growing pains (and the pandemic definitely doesn't help). But when I step back and look at this situation for what it is, I don't see this being nearly as bad as it could be/some are making it out to be. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by m-g-williams