CPL General

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Markoaleks said:

Not sure to post in FC Edmonton or here 

but one of the things that intrigued me about Can Pl economics is the travel within Canada

I travel a lot for work (not on my dime but am responsible with the spend) and travelling in Canada is expensive in general 

i recall being in Calgary in year 1 of the league, staying at the airport Marriott and Forge were flying back after playing Calgary in the last home game of that year before the playoffs ( Great Novak goal in a 2-1 loss for Forge) - they took the Air Canada red eye back on a Thursday and there were 20 people that needed to fly back so I was thinking about the cost of that one trip 

Then, was in Edmonton for Costa Rica game with my son, and half the Forge team flew back on same Saturday afternoon flight at 5pm after losing 2-1 ( Air Canada again ) with the thought of the 950 people that attended the FC Edmonton game and pondering the economics of Can Pl for travelling costs- let alone wages 

In fact, was chatting with a few V’s in the “fun zone” behind the nets and we chatted about travel costs specifically- wish I had asked their names too as they were a great hang -maybe they will read this and recall the gab with my son and I 

Canada travel is not cheap and while only a small sample size, the only times I have encountered a Can Pl team is on Air Canada and not league sponsor West Jet 

Paul Beirne had said long ago that "travel costs" wouldn't make or brake the league. That's accounted for from the get-go.

Keep it national but be better with schedules.

Regionalizing the league reduces its prestige as a top tier in my opinion

[yellowsweatygorilla]

16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Paul Beirne had said long ago that "travel costs" wouldn't make or brake the league. That's accounted for from the get-go.

Keep it national but be better with schedules.

Regionalizing the league reduces its prestige as a top tier in my opinion

But really would casuals that make up the bulk of butts in seats really be aware of regionalization and affecting prestige. And I don't think it affects prestige for MLS or any of the north american leagues? Seems pretty standard for north America 

If costs don't matter though, think player fatigue might be worth a shout as a reason to consider it. Also know a lot of European clubs are exploring cutting down on air travel for environmental reasons 

Edited January 3, 2022 by yellowsweatygorilla

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

But really would casuals that make up the bulk of butts in seats really be aware of regionalization and affecting prestige. And I don't think it affects prestige for MLS or any of the north american leagues? Seems pretty standard for north America 

If costs don't matter though, think player fatigue might be worth a shout as a reason to consider it. Also know a lot of European clubs are exploring cutting down on air travel for environmental reasons 

Why are we talking about it if its a non-issue for the league?

[yellowsweatygorilla]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Why are we talking about it if its a non-issue for the league?

I guess it's a non-issue for the league since player welfare isn't a priority to it .. but the difference in travel costs could actually be the difference between offering players a living wage and the current situation - $200k more in the cap would allow for all players to earn at least $40k a year. It would, as I mentioned, also address the serious concerns from players about fatigue. This is equivalent to a European wide league in terms of geography, and players there complain about the travel when it's just intermittent.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Why are we talking about it if its a non-issue for the league?

I guess it's a non-issue for the league since player welfare isn't a priority to it ..

It's a start up in the middle of a pandemic, it's not perfect but it could have been much much worse like players getting zero

4 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

but the difference in travel costs could actually be the difference between offering players a living wage and the current situation - $200k more in the cap would allow for all players to earn at least $40k a year

How sure are you the current players would get that bump in cash? Most likely, they'd bring in more expansive players instead.

You do realize CPL has operated on 2 out of it's 3 seasons in the middle of a global pandemic...right?

6 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

also address the serious concerns from players about fatigue. This is equivalent to a European wide league in terms of geography, and players there complain about the travel when it's just intermittent.

Correct, schedule has been crap...pandemic has not help but they should limit games to once a week except for domestic and continental games.

This allows players to rest properly, recover and train.

 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

It's a start up in the middle of a pandemic, it's not perfect but it could have been much much worse like players getting zero

How sure are you the current players would get that bump in cash? Most likely, they'd bring in more expansive players instead.

You do realize CPL has operated on 2 out of it's 3 seasons in the middle of a global pandemic...right?

Correct, schedule has been crap...pandemic has not help but they should limit games to once a week except for domestic and continental games.

This allows players to rest properly, recover and train.

 

 

So you're saying that because of the pandemic the league doesn't have the financial capacity to do more players, yet at the same time citing the claim that travel costs aren't significant to the budget? The statements kind of contradict. I am just suggesting the priority should be player salaries and I rather costs be cut elsewhere to facilitate this.

No confidence that the league would not just spend the extra cap on the higher end as you suggest, but hypothetically, what I'd like is to put that money into instituting the minimum at a living wage. Once PFACan gets recognized, based on conversations I've had with players, I am sure that'd be the priority in terms of a mid-term objective (though it's not a short term priority as a good faith attempt to build a working relationship with the league). The USLPA was about to get that higher minimum salary right at the go with their first contract.

Edited January 3, 2022 by yellowsweatygorilla

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

So you're saying that because of the pandemic the league doesn't have the financial capacity to do more players, yet at the same time citing the claim that travel costs aren't significant to the budget? The statements kind of contradict. I am just suggesting the priority should be player salaries and I rather costs be cut elsewhere to facilitate this.

That was the whole point of both bubbles.

 

1 minute ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

No confidence that the league would not just spend the extra cap on the higher end as you suggest, but hypothetically, what I'd like is to put that money into instituting the minimum at a living wage. Once PFACan gets recognized, based on conversations I've had with players, I am sure that'd be the priority in terms of a mid-term objective. The USLPA was about to get that higher minimum salary right at the go with their first contract.

If the minimum wage jumped to 50k, clubs would go after players who's worth is in that ballpark - not paying L1O guys with no pro experience at those wages.

They are 3 years old, it will happen but expenses this early on are tied to revenues...which have been crippled due to the pandemic 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

Just now, Ansem said:

That was the whole point of both bubbles.

 

If the minimum wage jumped to 50k, clubs would go after players who's worth is in that ballpark - not paying L1O guys with no pro experience at those wages.

They are 3 years old, it will happen but expenses this early on are tied to revenues...which have been crippled due to the pandemic 

I'd suggest the whole point of both bubbles was pandemic restrictions, not cutting travel costs. And in this case, the reduction of travel costs certainly didn't go to the players (as well as a lot of league staff) who are still owed money from 2020 from the unilateral cut.

 

And true, jumping to $50k will allow a lot more existing professionals abroad to return home (not necessarily a bad thing) ... but the 160 or so players earning less than $40k in the league right now can't all be replaced. Many opportunities will still be there for L1O/PLSQ players who are obtaining their first contract. Domestic players have to come from somewhere.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

I'd suggest the whole point of both bubbles was pandemic restrictions, not cutting travel costs. And in this case, the reduction of travel costs certainly didn't go to the players (as well as a lot of league staff) who are still owed money from 2020 from the unilateral cut.

They had next to no revenues... why can't you acknowledge that?

1 minute ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

And true, jumping to $50k will allow a lot more existing professionals abroad to return home (not necessarily a bad thing) ... but the 160 or so players earning less than $40k in the league right now can't all be replaced. Many opportunities will still be there for L1O/PLSQ players who are obtaining their first contract. Domestic players have to come from somewhere.

We need a D2 but before that, CPL has to grow more elite and bigger so there's enough interest and business case for such a league to pay them the $40k you're talking about.

CPL isn't there at year 3 (2 in a pandemic). It will take time but the league has to avoid putting itself out of business. 

Viability is vital for long term growth- it will become what you're looking for but it will take time.

Again, the league could have just shut down year 2 and players would have gotten nothing

[yellowsweatygorilla]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They had next to no revenues... why can't you acknowledge that?

We need a D2 but before that, CPL has to grow more elite and bigger so there's enough interest and business case for such a league to pay them the $40k you're talking about.

CPL isn't there at year 3 (2 in a pandemic). It will take time but the league has to avoid putting itself out of business. 

Viability is vital for long term growth- it will become what you're looking for but it will take time.

Again, the league could have just shut down year 2 and players would have gotten nothing

Going to step back on the revenue debate since that debate has been had many a times. 

I am just saying that moving forward if savings can be had from regionalization, I'd rather have that invested in salaries, since current levels are criminal (... Sometimes literally in terms of minimum wage stipulations).  I truly do not believe that regionalization impacts prestige and ability of league to attract eyeballs and if there's trade off advantages I would take it.  

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Going to step back on the revenue debate since that debate has been had many a times. 

I am just saying that moving forward if savings can be had from regionalization, I'd rather have that invested in salaries, since current levels are criminal (... Sometimes literally in terms of minimum wage stipulations).  I truly do not believe that regionalization impacts prestige and ability of league to attract eyeballs and if there's trade off advantages I would take it.  

What you and I truly want or think is irrelevant. The league did its homework before launching the league and them being adamant at being a nationwide league is most likely based on evidence from studies and reports - so it might have been determined that facing clubs from all over the country would be a better draw than facing the same clubs over and over again. (I 1000% agree)

Less draw, less revenue, wage stagnates...

Fact is that players are getting paid vs status quo of "zero". It's important to invest to build up the league so wages go up and we create a league to welcome players who can't play in CPL but too strong for D3.

It takes time... you want guys to get better wages without growing the league itself and its ability to attract new investments and revenues... There's nothing sustainable about that.

Business 101

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ansem

[yellowsweatygorilla]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

What you and I truly is irrelevant. The league did its homework before launching the league and them being adamant at being a nationwide league is most likely based on evidence - so it might have been determined that facing clubs from all over the country would be a better draw than facing the same clubs over and over again.

Less draw, less revenue, wage stagnates...

Fact is that players are getting paid vs status quo of "zero". It's important to invest to build up the league so wages go up and we create a league to welcome players who can't play in CPL but too strong for D3.

It takes time... you want guys to get better wages without growing the league itself and its ability to attract new investments and revenues... There's nothing sustainable about that.

Business 101

Sure. But anything we talk about here is irrelevant to a certain extent. We're just fans discussing inside soccer. 

That said broader fan pressure and more importantly players' collective actions have implications. The league literally sent their message to the union within a day of being notified of the athletic article coming out. 

 

It's false binary to say the alternative is just no league, no jobs. And besides, that's just a rephrasing of 'just get another job'. I think players and fans have the right to demand better. Just as you imply there won't be a league without the employers, there also won't be a league without its workers. And given its these workers responsible for my entertainment, I am not willing to have their concerns be an after thought. 

Apologize for moving back to a recycled debate. I think what I am really interested in is the arguments against regionalization. For one, Easton advocated for an even more extreme CHL regionalization back when he published his report. Not saying there isn't good reasons not to have it, and I am sure the league has obviously put thought into it - maybe even with the somewhat lower costs it wouldn't result in more teams and a regionalized 8 team league with the lack of variety in opponents isn't great for eg.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

That said broader fan pressure and more importantly players' collective actions have implications. The league literally sent their message to the union within a day of being notified of the athletic article coming out. 

How long did it take USL and MLS to get this far? 2 out of 3 years are in the middle of a pandemic and yet, they just announced the beginning of talks for a potential CBA.

It's not even that I disagree with anything you're saying, but you seem unwilling to acknowledge the other side of things nor the upsides of things.

We all want what's best for the players but I hope you realize that a CBA takes time to negotiate. Are you going to condemn the league until a deal is reached?

Not a great way to support the league either.

28 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

It's false binary to say the alternative is just no league, no jobs. And besides, that's just a rephrasing of 'just get another job'. I think players and fans have the right to demand better. Just as you imply there won't be a league without the employers, there also won't be a league without its workers. And given its these workers responsible for my entertainment, I am not willing to have their concerns be an after thought. 

Professional sport is a business, not a public service. They don't "have" to take insane amount of risks to start this thing. They didn't "have" to do anything.

You put "pro sports" in the same category as "jobs" which have lots of exemptions under most labour laws... this is where you lose me or anyone understanding that huge distinction.

There's the disconnect and I realize that you and I aren't speaking the same language nor will we ever see eye to eye on this.

28 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Easton advocated for an even more extreme CHL regionalization back when he published his report. Not saying there isn't good reasons not to have it, and I am sure the league has obviously put thought into it - maybe even with the somewhat lower costs it wouldn't result in more teams and a regionalized 8 team league with the lack of variety in opponents isn't great for eg.

That report was incompatible with the scope of what CPL plans to become long term.

It's weird... we applaud everything others (mainly Americans) do to grow as big as they can but we severely lecture, look down our own trying to do the same.

That's F'n weird to me... 

You think all those leagues who became huge today and pay their players well were any better when they got started???

You aren't being realistic and it's easy to look down on people and judge them when it isn't your money on the line...

Soccer is the sports with the freedom of movement with it being global, every countries have more than one league at different tiers...

Players are "free" to play wherever they want if they are "good" enough - yet, lots of them re-sign and join nonetheless... can't be as dark and gloomy as you imply. It's not amazing either... it's a little bit of both but trying to improve.

You need to balance your speech

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ansem

[CanadianSoccerFan]

The league has already been regionalized.  East and West only played each other once post-bubble with all other games being east vs east or west vs west. 

      

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

The league has already been regionalized.  East and West only played each other once post-bubble with all other games being east vs east or west vs west. 

      

Correct, and watching the same teams playing each other that often got tedious near the end of the season.

It has its downfalls... how many time are you willing to pay for tickets to see the same teams that often over and over? Heck it became hard to watch at times

[CanadianSoccerFan]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Correct, and watching the same teams playing each other that often got tedious near the end of the season.

It has its downfalls... how many time are you willing to pay for tickets to see the same teams that often over and over? Heck it became hard to watch at times

This is why the league needs more teams.  Regionalization works better if you have teams in Saskatoon, Regina, Kelowna, Vancouver, London, KW, Quebec, New Brunswick. Then it stays fresh while keeping the travel costs down and get more local rivalries without repetition.  

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

This is why the league needs more teams.  Regionalization works better if you have teams in Saskatoon, Regina, Kelowna, Vancouver, London, KW, Quebec, New Brunswick. Then it stays fresh while keeping the travel costs down and get more local rivalries without repetition.  

I don't disagree with you but I think the league can attract more fans by having clubs hosting teams from far away more than once a season. CPL wants that, we should support their determination to achieve that.

I find us so quick to admit "defeat" and just get back in line where "we belong".

This country lacks audacity, boldness, vision...dare I say balls. Glad CPL "dares" to be confident and dream big. I extend that to CEBL as well

[yellowsweatygorilla]

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

We all want what's best for the players but I hope you realize that a CBA takes time to negotiate. Are you going to condemn the league until a deal is reached?

Not a great way to support the league either.

I've worked as a union organizer, been involved with bargaining teams, am a union steward right now - I know what CBA negotiations involve - and the first contract is always the most difficult. All the more reason to back the union and be honest about the league if we want a quicker resolution that doesn't involve labour disruption or even greater tarnishing of the league's reputation.

As for supporting the league ... in addition to my belief that pushing the league to do better on labour relations/the league needing the union to save it from itself is supporting the league ... I think I've done enough to show I am committed to the league's growth .. I dropped my TFC season seat and swapped to York year 1, I spend more time than my fulltime job implementing the Canadian pyramid in Football Manager for free, I am involved in supporter groups.. there's different ways to support the league, and just because I am more critical of it doesn't mean i don't support it.

Quote

 

You put "pro sports" in the same category as "jobs" which have lots of exemptions under most labour laws... this is where you lose me or anyone understanding that huge distinction.

There's the disconnect and I realize that you and I aren't speaking the same language nor will we ever see eye to eye on this.

 

Those exemptions won't hold up in court. In fact, there's recent case law with gig workers that will be very helpful. Players have chosen not to challenge the league yet on that matter in good faith ... time for the league to repay that.

But more importantly, you're right that we have a disconnect. I think I've made clear with multiple comments right now, when I've tried to back away from this regurgitated debate and moved it back to a discussion about regionalization. So let's just agree to disagree.

Quote

It's weird... we applaud everything others (mainly Americans) do to grow as big as they can but we severely lecture, look down our own trying to do the same.

I think that's a bit of a straw man... like I said, I've switched from MLS to CanPL at the first opportunity. I've even said in that other thread you posted that I'd love for the MLS teams to switch over when the finances make sense. I am plenty critical of MLS/USL. Me pointing out that the minimum salary number set by the first USL-C contract is something positive to aspire to, doesn't suddenly mean I am a cheerleader for American soccer?

 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

18 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

This is why the league needs more teams.  Regionalization works better if you have teams in Saskatoon, Regina, Kelowna, Vancouver, London, KW, Quebec, New Brunswick. Then it stays fresh while keeping the travel costs down and get more local rivalries without repetition.  

Right, and that's why I mentioned the whole Canada overlayed onto Europe thing. I doubt many of the lower division European clubs would be feasible if they had to deal with Canada's geography. If regionalization allows for more teams, I would certainly be open to it as a fan (though sure, some people will be put off by it). If regionalization allows for a 16 team league, we aren't really seeing less variety opponents than what we have now. But sure, that's a huge if ... who knows, this might be all moot if the savings from travel costs are really as insignificant as suggested.

 

[Ansem]

12 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

I've worked as a union organizer, been involved with bargaining teams, am a union steward right now - I know what CBA negotiations involve - and the first contract is always the most difficult. All the more reason to back the union and be honest about the league if we want a quicker resolution that doesn't involve labour disruption or even greater tarnishing of the league's reputation.

As for supporting the league ... in addition to my belief that pushing the league to do better on labour relations/the league needing the union to save it from itself is supporting the league ... I think I've done enough to show I am committed to the league's growth .. I dropped my TFC season seat and swapped to York year 1, I spend more time than my fulltime job implementing the Canadian pyramid in Football Manager for free, I am involved in supporter groups.. there's different ways to support the league, and just because I am more critical of it doesn't mean i don't support it.

Those exemptions won't hold up in court. In fact, there's recent case law with gig workers that will be very helpful. Players have chosen not to challenge the league yet on that matter in good faith ... time for the league to repay that.

But more importantly, you're right that we have a disconnect. I think I've made clear with multiple comments right now, when I've tried to back away from this regurgitated debate and moved it back to a discussion about regionalization. So let's just agree to disagree.

I think that's a bit of a straw man... like I said, I've switched from MLS to CanPL at the first opportunity. I've even said in that other thread you posted that I'd love for the MLS teams to switch over when the finances make sense. I am plenty critical of MLS/USL. Me pointing out that the minimum salary number set by the first USL-C contract is something positive to aspire to, doesn't suddenly mean I am a cheerleader for American soccer?

 

Pressuring the league when they acted like the union didn't exist was one thing and I understood it.

Now they are at the table and talking while even mentioning working towards a CBA. The league has enough trouble as it is to get noticed, us "hardcores" should push for positivity on what they are doing right.

The small number of casuals that see mostly negative things about the league just gets turned off. You just sound like you'll keep doing what you're doing even when the league are in talks with them. That's not gotta get a deal done faster... I hope you realize that.

Let both sides talk in good faith and work the details while we push positive messages to get casuals interested. I see your reasoning but ultimately, getting casuals are going to make or break this league - not us hardcores.

It gets exhausting tweeting and commenting + talking about the league on all plateform to raise awareness and interest from casuals to see equal amount of tweets bashing it. (Not necessarily you fyi)

Just letting you know that this turn off casuals so fast and they just look into something else. I get it when the league were jerks to PFACan, but they aren't anymore. Surely, we can focus on helping get casuals to this league 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Pressuring the league when they acted like the union didn't exist was one thing and I understood it.

Now they are at the table and talking while even mentioning working towards a CBA. The league has enough trouble as it is to get noticed, us "hardcores" should push for positivity on what they are doing right.

The small number of casuals that see mostly negative things about the league just gets turned off. You just sound like you'll keep doing what you're doing even when the league are in talks with them. That's not gotta get a deal done faster... I hope you realize that.

Let both sides talk in good faith and work the details while we push positive messages to get casuals interested. I see your reasoning but ultimately, getting casuals are going to make or break this league - not us hardcores.

It gets exhausting tweeting and commenting + talking about the league on all plateform to raise awareness and interest from casuals to see equal amount of tweets bashing it. (Not necessarily you fyi)

Just letting you know that this turn off casuals so fast and they just look into something else. I get it when the league were jerks to PFACan, but they aren't anymore. Surely, we can focus on helping get casuals to this league 

Though I disagree, I get your point.

Though one caution I will add is that the league hasn't actually began negotiating with the union yet - they just sent out intention to do so. We're not too far from where we were 2 years ago when the union first sent out communication to the league and received no answer. Though I suppose recognition that the union even exists is something.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Though I disagree, I get your point.

Though one caution I will add is that the league hasn't actually began negotiating with the union yet - they just sent out intention to do so. We're not too far from where we were 2 years ago when the union first sent out communication to the league and received no answer. Though I suppose recognition that the union even exists is something.

Exactly, I'm of the opinion of giving them the benefit of the doubt and believe they are acting in good faith until proven otherwise. Let's support it and help promote it to casuals.

If the league F up on that front, then I'll be supportive of denouncing them wholeheartedly.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ansem

[yellowsweatygorilla]

I will add one more pro to regionalization (under the assumption of more teams): more accessible road trips!

Not nothing to have maybe a couple hundred extra tickets sold to away support. We consistently get a decent number of Forge fans at York. Imagine 5-6 more Ontario clubs: London, St. Catherine, Oshawa, Barrie, Peterborough, K-W.

[Aird25]

It absolutely baffles me that this is the argument I find following news that one of the country’s oldest professional clubs can’t front the bill. Perspective anyone?

Edited January 3, 2022 by Aird25

[youllneverwalkalone]

I've always felt we were the Portugal of Canada.