Canadian Dual Nationals 2.0 Edition, Chase for the 5 stars

[Kadenge]

45 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Honestly for some people its a business decision...

Don't think playing for Canada hurt Davies or David from a business perspective. Soccer is truly a world game in terms of opportunities to play in Europe now. Scouts are well informed of talent regardless of the national team and if you're good enough you will be signed by a strong team. It may have assisted  Sigur & Mitrovic signing with Hajduk or Red Star but once again if they were good enough I can't see the clubs rejecting them because they elected to play for Canada. Perhaps I'm wrong?

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Don't think playing for Canada hurt Davies or David from a business perspective. Soccer is truly a world game in terms of opportunities to play in Europe now. Scouts are well informed of talent regardless of the national team and if you're good enough you will be signed by a strong team. It may have assisted  Sigur & Mitrovic signing with Hajduk or Red Star but once again if they were good enough I can't see the clubs rejecting them because they elected to play for Canada. Perhaps I'm wrong?

Davies I think spoke about Canada being used a negative.

It's all hypothetical, so who really knows, but from say an English perspective I think being Canada has hurt David a bit.  There is the football reputation plus actual practical problem of having your players getting back later from internationals.  Our international achievement don't usually impress the lay football fan, unfortunately. Part of buying a player is creating excitement and getting people in seats

Reject is probably too strong but it could be a tick in the negative column.

 

[Bison44]

3 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Davies I think spoke about Canada being used a negative.

It's all hypothetical, so who really knows, but from say an English perspective I think being Canada has hurt David a bit.  There is the football reputation plus actual practical problem of having your players getting back later from internationals.  Our international achievement don't usually impress the lay football fan, unfortunately. Part of buying a player is creating excitement and getting people in seats

Reject is probably too strong but it could be a tick in the negative column.

 

Do they view central american, caribbean, SA or Asian players with the same negative perspective??  Oh well, having Davies, David, Larin breaking new ground for the next group is something.  I know we've had other before but these guys were developed over here and were definitely worth the trouble of bringing them over to europe.  The next kids can play for canada, can develop here and can still sign in europe.  Hopefully that kind of thinking wont be a negative for much longer for duals.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

26 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Do they view central american, caribbean, SA or Asian players with the same negative perspective??  Oh well, having Davies, David, Larin breaking new ground for the next group is something.  I know we've had other before but these guys were developed over here and were definitely worth the trouble of bringing them over to europe.  The next kids can play for canada, can develop here and can still sign in europe.  Hopefully that kind of thinking wont be a negative for much longer for duals.  

Of course it's changing.

Edit: To be absolutely clear the views below do not reflect those of the poster, just what I have heard.

That said, African players are a concern because you lose the good ones for a month every couple years.

But more specifically to your point, I have certainly heard "Antonio is going across the world to play in *something negative* he won't leave until the next day"

Even if the travel time is the same, we are later and the players have less time to get back on time.

South Americans also have their own reputations good and bad, but beyond the famous nations I think the initial distrust is similar.

PS. - Back to us, the World Cup didn't do a lot of our players any favours but Davies against Chelsea and to lesser extent Tottenham, the year they won the Champions League did a whole lot for his "best left back in the world" moniker. 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Dominic94]

7 hours ago, Ivan said:

Funny.  I actually think we won't miss Mitrovic or Yankov (already know we won't), while to me, Flores is still a big loss risk.  Could very well be wrong on all 3 though!

I agree completely with the Farsi analogy, although it could be the bitterness talking.

I mean Mitrovic is in Serie A would think he would be right up there with Kone. 
 

Iankov looks to be a decent mls player but a time of player we don’t produce so that’s why it hurts.

Flores seems to be playing more in LIGA MX so I will have to retract my previous remark and give it time.

[TOcanadafan]

Everytime I watch Vancouver play, I wish that Ryan Gauld had come a year earlier (assuming FIFA would strictly apply the residency rules)

Edited March 31 by TOcanadafan

[An Observer]

Isn’t Gauld eligible for us sometime in 2025? 

[Shway]

4 hours ago, An Observer said:

Isn’t Gauld eligible for us sometime in 2025? 

I never understood this.

 Didn't he play with their U21s? And I thought you had to be eligible for a given country before playing any sort of international ball. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

I never understood this.

 Didn't he play with their U21s? And I thought you had to be eligible for a given country before playing any sort of international ball. 

This is the set of requirements that allow a switch - from my understanding

"i) was fielded in a match in an official competition at any level (with the exception of “A” international level) in any kind of football for his current association;  Played in official matches for the Scottish U21s - not "A" international level

ii) at the time of being fielded for his first match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he did not hold the nationality of the association which he wishes to represent; he was not Canadian then

iii) at the time of being fielded for his last match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he had not turned 21 years old;   He was born 16 Dec, 1995 so turned 21 in Dec 2016, from what I can find he played his last game  - an u21 Euro qualifier against the Ukraine - on 6 Sept 2016.  Not quite 21.

and

iv) meets any of the requirements provided in article 6 or article 7" - 

The part of Article 7 I believe applies to him  reads: "shall be eligible to play for the representative teams of the new association only if... 

d) He has lived on the territory of the relevant association:... iii) for players that began living on the territory from the age of 18: at least five years."

And, of course, he has to be a citizen of Canada ie.  apply having been a permanent resident, and physically been in Canada for at least 3 of the last 5 years. 

[MtlMario]

16 hours ago, Obinna said:

Generally agree here, yet I am still not particularly fussed about Farsi. Jebbison I take a "what are you waiting for" attitude, and it feels more like his loss than anything. The one that bothers me most is Sigur, because we could really use him, but even then I kind of understand it.

I don't know, I get what you and @MtlMario and others are saying, but I don't really view what Farsi or Sigur as being dickheads. Just seems they have a preference to play for other teams. Whether they justify it with personal feeling or personal ambition, I don't take it as a slight against Canada. We just have more work to do so that we are more appealing. We are getting stronger so we'll win more of these battles in the future, hopefully. 

I appreciate the guys who have committed, like Eustaquio or David, who could have played elsewhere, but it's funny how we seem to praise them for their patriotism, while at the same time we act as if Farsi and Sigur are unpatriotic, as in how can you possibly want to play for another team when you grow up here? At the end of the day I just think players are making personal, professional decisions. David, Eustaquio, Farsi, Sigur - we pretend these guys feel Canadian or don't feel Canadian but these are just fan narratives at the end of the day. I guess that's fandom, though. 

Curious. What if it was time of war and he chose to join his parents country of birth instead of his, would you still fell the same way? Cheers.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

55 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Curious. What if it was time of war and he chose to join his parents country of birth instead of his, would you still fell the same way? Cheers.

Sometimes we act like it is, but sport is not war.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

Curious. What if it was time of war and he chose to join his parents country of birth instead of his, would you still fell the same way? Cheers.

In a matter of war I would be far less forgiving, but as @WestHamCanadianinOxford put it...

Makes me wonder how Canada would fare in an actual war with a population not necessarily loyal, but that's for another thread on another forum 😁

[Macksam]

17 hours ago, Obinna said:

Generally agree here, yet I am still not particularly fussed about Farsi. Jebbison I take a "what are you waiting for" attitude, and it feels more like his loss than anything. The one that bothers me most is Sigur, because we could really use him, but even then I kind of understand it.

I don't know, I get what you and @MtlMario and others are saying, but I don't really view what Farsi or Sigur as being dickheads. Just seems they have a preference to play for other teams. Whether they justify it with personal feeling or personal ambition, I don't take it as a slight against Canada. We just have more work to do so that we are more appealing. We are getting stronger so we'll win more of these battles in the future, hopefully. 

I appreciate the guys who have committed, like Eustaquio or David, who could have played elsewhere, but it's funny how we seem to praise them for their patriotism, while at the same time we act as if Farsi and Sigur are unpatriotic, as in how can you possibly want to play for another team when you grow up here? At the end of the day I just think players are making personal, professional decisions. David, Eustaquio, Farsi, Sigur - we pretend these guys feel Canadian or don't feel Canadian but these are just fan narratives at the end of the day. I guess that's fandom, though. 

It could just be cultural thing as well with regards to Sigur. It's not just Canada that has that issue but Austria for example has also lost their fair share of Croatians to Croatia. Rakitic is also from Switzerland and he ended up repping Croatia to. It clearly is a proud culture and one of the biggest ways I guess they like to express that is through soccer. 

Edited March 31 by Macksam

[blueseeka]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

This is the set of requirements that allow a switch - from my understanding

"i) was fielded in a match in an official competition at any level (with the exception of “A” international level) in any kind of football for his current association;  Played in official matches for the Scottish U21s - not "A" international level

ii) at the time of being fielded for his first match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he did not hold the nationality of the association which he wishes to represent; he was not Canadian then

iii) at the time of being fielded for his last match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he had not turned 21 years old;   He was born 16 Dec, 1995 so turned 21 in Dec 2016, from what I can find he played his last game  - an u21 Euro qualifier against the Ukraine - on 6 Sept 2016.  Not quite 21.

and

iv) meets any of the requirements provided in article 6 or article 7" - 

The part of Article 7 I believe applies to him  reads: "shall be eligible to play for the representative teams of the new association only if... 

d) He has lived on the territory of the relevant association:... iii) for players that began living on the territory from the age of 18: at least five years."

And, of course, he has to be a citizen of Canada ie.  apply having been a permanent resident, and physically been in Canada for at least 3 of the last 5 years. 

Great work as always @WestHamCanadianinOxford Do you believe that Farsi is Canada captied with the rules?

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

30 minutes ago, blueseeka said:

Great work as always @WestHamCanadianinOxford Do you believe that Farsi is Canada captied with the rules?

Not sure, have to know Algerian law I think. 

He might fulfil this first option:

"A request to change association may be granted only in the following circumstances:

a) the player:

i) was fielded in a match in an official competition at any level (with the exception of “A” international level) in any kind of football for his current association;

and ii) at the time of being fielded for his first match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he already held the nationality of the association which he wishes to represent."

 

But 

"2. There is a distinction between holding a nationality and being eligible to obtain a nationality. A player holds a nationality, if, through the operation of a national law, they have: a) automatically received a nationality (e.g. from birth) without being required to undertake any further administrative requirements (e.g. abandoning a separate nationality); or

b) acquired a nationality by undertaking a naturalisation process."

Not sure how  Algerian citizenship law would work for him. 

 

If he is dependant on the same option as Gauld, he fails it because he played for us when he was just over 21. 

Edited March 31 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[The Real Marc]

He may have been an Algerian citizen hence going over there to play for them? Unlikely to be an import.

[Pasta88]

If FIFA tightened the eligibility requirements we wouldn’t have to have this conversation as often as we do. It’s a complete joke that players can represent countries they’ve never lived in, let alone played grassroots soccer in (international soccer tournaments are soccer tournaments after all). International soccer is becoming more and more of a joke because of this and it’s only going to get worse with increased migration.

In a perfect world FIFA requires you to have played at least 2 years of soccer in the country you are otherwise eligible to represent. Eliminates players like David, Balogun, Musah, Dest, etc. being eligible for the US and countries like Algeria/Turkey/Morocco just poaching European raised players but also still allows players who were actually brought up in two countries like Musiala to choose between their countries.

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

If FIFA tightened the eligibility requirements we wouldn’t have to have this conversation as often as we do. It’s a complete joke that players can represent countries they’ve never lived in, let alone played grassroots soccer in (international soccer tournaments are soccer tournaments after all). International soccer is becoming more and more of a joke because of this and it’s only going to get worse with increased migration.

In a perfect world FIFA requires you to have played at least 2 years of soccer in the country you are otherwise eligible to represent. Eliminates players like David, Balogun, Musah, Dest, etc. being eligible for the US and countries like Algeria/Turkey/Morocco just poaching European raised players but also still allows players who were actually brought up in two countries like Musiala to choose between their countries.

And for us Arfield, Wotherspoon, De Fougeroles, McGraw, McGill... I agree with the idea though, as I hated the idea of Arfield captaining the country and he never stepped foot in the country prior too. That/It is shameless to me. 

I think the rules need to be convoluted, where right now it's black and white. Cynical cap tieing hasn't been addressed.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

If FIFA tightened the eligibility requirements we wouldn’t have to have this conversation as often as we do. It’s a complete joke that players can represent countries they’ve never lived in, let alone played grassroots soccer in (international soccer tournaments are soccer tournaments after all). International soccer is becoming more and more of a joke because of this and it’s only going to get worse with increased migration.

In a perfect world FIFA requires you to have played at least 2 years of soccer in the country you are otherwise eligible to represent. Eliminates players like David, Balogun, Musah, Dest, etc. being eligible for the US and countries like Algeria/Turkey/Morocco just poaching European raised players but also still allows players who were actually brought up in two countries like Musiala to choose between their countries.

I think it might become a legal thing if you try to "retighten" it  - they just "loosened" the rules a few years ago. 

Apparently reason Holmes might be a possiblity for Canada in the near future is that an Ontario appeals court said that, essentially, not allowing grandparents to pass down citizenship is "unconstitutional."

[DrunkOffPunch]

3 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

 

In a perfect world FIFA requires you to have played at least 2 years of soccer in the country you are otherwise eligible to represent.

This is dumb. Kids don’t generally have a say in what country they live in. You talk about regular people migrating when the vast majority of pro soccer players do the same. It just punishes the kids.

[costarg]

6 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

If FIFA tightened the eligibility requirements we wouldn’t have to have this conversation as often as we do. It’s a complete joke that players can represent countries they’ve never lived in, let alone played grassroots soccer in (international soccer tournaments are soccer tournaments after all). International soccer is becoming more and more of a joke because of this and it’s only going to get worse with increased migration.

In a perfect world FIFA requires you to have played at least 2 years of soccer in the country you are otherwise eligible to represent. Eliminates players like David, Balogun, Musah, Dest, etc. being eligible for the US and countries like Algeria/Turkey/Morocco just poaching European raised players but also still allows players who were actually brought up in two countries like Musiala to choose between their countries.

Hey look at this guy with the common sense over here. 

I think you took a wrong turn somewhere pal...

Obviously kidding, a lot of what you wrote makes sense to me.

[MtlMario]

23 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Sometimes we act like it is, but sport is not war.

I know it's not the same but I just wanted to know if the same reasoning would apply to both decisions. If only there would be no wars so no decisions would be necessary. GIVE PEACE A CHANCE. Cheers.

Btw Obinna did reply (nicely I might add).

Edited April 1 by MtlMario

[Obinna]

14 hours ago, DrunkOffPunch said:

This is dumb. Kids don’t generally have a say in what country they live in. You talk about regular people migrating when the vast majority of pro soccer players do the same. It just punishes the kids.

So you have players like Dest and Balo who were fully developed in the Netherlands and England and your argument is they'd be punished because they never had a say in what country they lived in? These guys are Dutch and English through and through! Add Jedi and Musah to the list too...and Tillman...and...Cardoso....hey maybe you are arguing the case because USA would be significantly weaker? 

I like it becasue it's a more true representation of the strength of a soccer ecosystem - but it's obviously not perfect.

Canada for example produced David, Davies, Larin, Buchanan....but not Eustaquio. BUT Stef played minor soccer in Lemmington Ontario, and Ugbo (who is basically as british as Musah, Balogun, etc.) played youth soccer in Brampton, Ontatrio. How significant was this really? Well even with these two it varies, since Ugbo won an international tourney in U10 at Disney, whereas Eustaquio probably just kicked a ball with a timbits logo on his back.

Again, I like it though. Better than the status quo.

Edited April 1 by Obinna

[DrunkOffPunch]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

So you have players like Dest and Balo who were fully developed in the Netherlands and England and your argument is they'd be punished because they never had a say in what country they lived in? These guys are Dutch and English through and through! Add Jedi and Musah to the list too...and Tillman...and...Cardoso....hey maybe you are arguing the case because USA would be significantly weaker? 

I like it becasue it's a more true representation of the strength of a soccer ecosystem - but it's obviously not perfect.

Canada for example produced David, Davies, Larin, Buchanan....but not Eustaquio. BUT Stef played minor soccer in Lemmington Ontario, and Ugbo (who is basically as british as Musah, Balogun, etc.) played youth soccer in Brampton, Ontatrio. How significant was this really? Well even with these two it varies, since Ugbo won an international tourney in U10 at Disney, whereas Eustaquio probably just kicked a ball with a timbits logo on his back.

Again, I like it though. Better than the status quo.

To argue that a kid only born in a country with no other connection, like didn’t really live in that country or doesn’t have a parent from that country is one thing. You should ALWAYS be able to play for your parents country. Messi’s kids weren’t born or raised in Argentina. Should they not be eligible for Argentina? The same goes for any good non European player. In these CONCACAF youth tournaments, just about every team has a couple Americans in them. It doesn’t bother me any. 
 

Also, it’s not for you or me to decide how someone feels culturally. We’re both nations of immigrants. Heck I grew up in a town of 500 and my next door neighbors kid spoke British English till he was like 16. I work with a guy who’s dad was stationed in Germany, met a girl and settled down there. He moved to the US in his 20s and wouldn’t be able to tell he was German. I’m sure you or someone else reading this has plenty of similar examples.

 

 

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, DrunkOffPunch said:

To argue that a kid only born in a country with no other connection, like didn’t really live in that country or doesn’t have a parent from that country is one thing. You should ALWAYS be able to play for your parents country. Messi’s kids weren’t born or raised in Argentina. Should they not be eligible for Argentina? The same goes for any good non European player. In these CONCACAF youth tournaments, just about every team has a couple Americans in them. It doesn’t bother me any. 

I am not necessarily arguing against that. 

Let's face it, there's no easy answer to this stuff. I sure as hell don't know the best way to address the issue.

What I do know is that we do have an issue in International soccer. It has been very confusing to determine who is or isn't eligible to play for a country, and ultimately international soccer has been watered down with players representing countries due to technical connections rather than "genuine" connections. I am not passing judgement on how someone feels culturally when I say that, I am just pointing out the reality of the situation and my speaking my personal feelings about the situation.

I am sure there are players (Jedi for instance) who relished the opportunity to play for another country because it was a means to bring him closer that specific culture. That's definitely a feel good story that I think is really cool. Even Arfield was able to leverage the Canadian national team to satisfy his desire to see the American continent. That's a great things for those specific players. 

On the flipside, we have a confusing system with oddities in virtually every national team. For me this has gone from national teams having a few players that are cool novelties, to something moving in the direction of club soccer, where your ability to pluck players out of other national systems can (in theory) radically strengthen your national program. 

Funny enough, I have quite a bit of forgiveness for teams like Jamaica, as there is a long standing cultural connection to a single specific nation (England). It would feel wrong to me to prevent Jamaica from calling players with English connections. On the other side of the spectrum, we have Canada and the United States, which have minor connections to dozens and dozens of nations, which is fair enough. We win some and lose some. Again, I don't know where to draw the line here, nor do I feel this situation (for Canada/USA) is unfair per se. 

The situation that is perhaps most cringe is when you see naturalized Brazilians that play for China. It obviously hasn't helped them a great deal and it definitely dosen't hurt Brazil, so no harm no foul, I guess. 

Before I close it out, here is my futile stab at a more sensible system:

• Citizenship (by any means) and you are eligible.
• No switching, ever. You step on the field at any level, you are tied.

Probably the best I could hope for. Things would be WAY more simple. Players would have to live with their choice and think long and hard before pulling on the jersey. Would restore some honour for the badge and would drastically reduce plucking players from other nations. Meanwhile, the option to play for the nation of your parent will not be infringed on.