Canadian Dual Nationals 2.0 Edition, Chase for the 5 stars

[kacbru]

2 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I'll tell you what it makes me think of and why I can't agree.

I grew up with kids from a Reserve that had a fair bit of oil and natural gas.  The kids would get royalties when they turned 18 that added up $100-150,000. 

About age we are talking, adults would start coming to them with contracts, saying I'll give you $50000 now to buy a truck (and contract would essentially say they had to pay $75000 - $80000 when their money came.) Parents weren't usually rich so some were all for it. Essentially a lot of them lost half their money in the end. And had almost nothing to build a future.

Lots of people like the adults in football.  You are asking the kid, to make a totally rational decision, in a very irrational time with the lure of something that for a young footballer might feel the same as a new truck. Maybe with parents who would love for them to represent such and such a country.

I can't make that permanent. 

 

 

Except international football is a marginal part-time gig in $ terms, where any financial advantage is indirect and really only for the few at the absolute top of the pyramid.  There is no shortage of successful professional footballers that never play internationally.  Is Timori's career ruined if he never gets another England call, or can't file a switch to Canada?  Nope and I don't feel any more sorry for him than I do for Ryan Gauld who has not been called to the Scotland senior team.

For the majority of international footballers, they play for non-financial reasons and they risk their careers to do so.

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

You cannot sign pro in Europe until your 18 if you dont have residency there. Clearly fifa thinks that its too early for kids to make decisions that drastically alter their lives with no guarantee. Although not a perfect comparison, I think the foundational thought of "kids shouldnt be tied into lifelong decisions too early in their career" is fair. 

Yes I can agree on the spirit of this, but the comparison is not just imperfect, it is apples to oranges. Think about why you cannot sign in Europe before 18 without residency. That's a completely different risk than what we are talking about here.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

24 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Except international football is a marginal part-time gig in $ terms, where any financial advantage is indirect and really only for the few at the absolute top of the pyramid.  There is no shortage of successful professional footballers that never play internationally.  Is Timori's career ruined if he never gets another England call, or can't file a switch to Canada?  Nope and I don't feel any more sorry for him than I do for Ryan Gauld who has not been called to the Scotland senior team.

For the majority of international footballers, they play for non-financial reasons and they risk their careers to do so.

On the first part, someone convinces you as a kid to play for one country's youth team and then you never get any senior caps, but you could have played for someone else, you have lost money.  A lot of time it makes 150 grand in my story pale in comparison.

I'm sorry but being an international will always get you paid more, including with direct clauses or your agent isn't doing his or her job. 

The bolded bit is not true, or at least we have not way of knowing it's true. Vast majority of internationals get something out of it. Look at Leon Bailey, who was a pretty loyal Jamaican player, born there, but though he wasn't getting enough.

Or look at the CSB thread on here, for players valuing their international status.

Edited April 2 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Bigandy]

14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yes I can agree on the spirit of this, but the comparison is not just imperfect, it is apples to oranges. Think about why you cannot sign in Europe before 18 without residency. That's a completely different risk than what we are talking about here.

I understand your point but I think the reason this rule was brought in is because many youth teams poached many physically gifted youngsters from poorer backgrounds. Very few made it as they relied only on their physical traits and when others caught up, they were no longer top players. The kid would then be in europe with no family, money, often language problems and no resources to succeed. 

This also was done to specifically help other youngsters develop their IQ for dealing with physically superior opposition. 

Kids can still be in residencies in other parts of the continent so I don't think this rule is directly connected to what you're implying. Although it obviously can be viewed that way as well. 

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I understand your point but I think the reason this rule was brought in is because many youth teams poached many physically gifted youngsters from poorer backgrounds. Very few made it as they relied only on their physical traits and when others caught up, they were no longer top players. The kid would then be in europe with no family, money, often language problems and no resources to succeed. 

This also was done to specifically help other youngsters develop their IQ for dealing with physically superior opposition. 

This is the primary reason and why I disagreed with your analogy. These players can be at extreme risk if something goes wrong at the club and they are terminated. They can end up on the streets to fend for themselves before the age of maturity.

This is not like choosing between youth national teams in any way, shape or form. 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This is the primary reason and why I disagreed with your analogy. These players can be at extreme risk if something goes wrong at the club and they are terminated. They can end up on the streets to fend for themselves before the age of maturity.

This is not like choosing between youth national teams in any way, shape or form. 

For sure. you are 100% correct and in no way am I trying to compare the two risks. The only connection is that its a bit silly to say a kid is not mature/wise/have the resources etc to pursue a pro club career but that same kid is wise enough to decide his international career. 

If you look at it from "does the kid have adequate capacity to make these decisions?" then the answer should be no for both. 

If you look at it from "what are the negative outcomes of a bad career decision?" Then obv playing in europe under 18 is no where near the risk of picking the wrong international side. 

 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

For sure. you are 100% correct and in no way am I trying to compare the two risks. The only connection is that its a bit silly to say a kid is not mature/wise/have the resources etc to pursue a pro club career but that same kid is wise enough to decide his international career. 
 

Yeah but a kid doesn't have to decide on an international career, that's the thing. It's not mandatory that kids play international soccer as a teenager. I would welcome an environment where kids on the fence wait until they are mature enough to make the decision, whether that is 19, 20, 21, etc.

Let the kids who are clear on who they want to play for fill the gaps. Let the unsure kids take their time. Nothing wrong with being an unsure 16 or 17 year old. 

Edited April 2 by Obinna

[Obinna]

45 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

On the first part, someone convinces you as a kid to play for one country's youth team and then you never get any senior caps, but you could have played for someone else, you have lost money.  A lot of time it makes 150 grand in my story pale in comparison.

I'm sorry but being an international will always get you paid more, including with direct clauses or your agent isn't doing his or her job. 

The bolded bit is not true, or at least we have not way of knowing it's true. Vast majority of internationals get something out of it. Look at Leon Bailey, who was a pretty loyal Jamaican player, born there, but though he wasn't getting enough.

Or look at the CSB thread on here, for players valuing their international status.

I agree that being an international will always get you paid more.

I agree that not allowing players to switch would prevent former youth internationals from strong teams having senior international careers with weaker teams. However, this is already the case and the world ticks on just fine.

There's definitely a part of me that feels good about the guys who can switch and go on to have solid international careers with another nation.

Again though, I would trade that for a system where players aren't flipping between nations, and certain national teams aren't strengthening by exploiting the rules.

To me that shouldn't be what it's all about, but maybe I am just old fashioned in this respect.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I agree that being an international will always get you paid more.

I agree that not allowing players to switch would prevent former youth internationals from strong teams having senior international careers with weaker teams. However, this is already the case and the world ticks on just fine.

There's definitely a part of me that feels good about the guys who can switch and go on to have solid international careers with another nation.

Again though, I would trade that for a system where players aren't flipping between nations, and certain national teams aren't strengthening by exploiting the rules.

To me that shouldn't be what it's all about, but maybe I am just old fashioned in this respect.

Those two sides are basically what I see balanced in the current system with all its problems and complexity. You still get one switch, not multiple; you need some tie to your new country; if you make a decision it needs to be before you are 21, which is better than 16/17 for me etc.

It's not great but I see worse in other systems.  I would love if I could have a bunch of international versions of Mark Noble, make the club (nation) their family supported and play with it their whole career.  But it doesn't work that way for most people, unfortunately. 

Cheers.

[Kent]

This thread is a perfect example why there isn't much use in complaining about the rules. There is no correct answer. A person's nationality isn't black and white. There is a LOT of grey for many, many people. So for me, the rules are the rules. What the best possible rules would be is an entirely subjective thing. What the rules currently are is an objective thing. Just play by the rules as they stand, for better or for worse.

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, Obinna said:

Yeah but a kid doesn't have to decide on an international career, that's the thing. It's not mandatory that kids play international soccer as a teenager. I would welcome an environment where kids on the fence wait until they are mature enough to make the decision, whether that is 19, 20, 21, etc.

Let the kids who are clear on who they want to play for fill the gaps. Let the unsure kids take their time. Nothing wrong with being an unsure 16 or 17 year old. 

Thats the issue though. How many kids are going to take their time? Are they going to turn down an england call up at 16? If the rules change, then federations are going to be forced to recruit younger and more aggressively. Because no one knows a kids development, so many kids will be cap tied cynically. 

The other thing is that deciding to turn down a call up is still a major decision. These federations would be forcing kids to make a "no" decision that is just sitting on the fence of international allegiance. It's having to turn down money, fame, potential endorsements, risk hurting your reputation etc. 

[El Hombre]

There is a dead simple solution to this: on their 18th birthday you take them out drinking in Liverpool.  After 4 pints, you pay some rando to walk up to them and say "Oi! You talk funny. Where you from?" 

Whatever they answer is the country they are eligible for.

[toontownman]

30 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

There is a dead simple solution to this: on their 18th birthday you take them out drinking in Liverpool.  After 4 pints, you pay some rando to walk up to them and say "Oi! You talk funny. Where you from?" 

Whatever they answer is the country they are eligible for.

"hey it sounds like you're from America..."

Canada will quickly tumble out for fear of life. Don't even need to spend money on the pints.

[MtlMario]

I still see so many kids with their fathers (who are second and third generation and only were in those countries when their parents brought to visit when they were like 10 years old) wearing the jerseys of their parents or grandparents. Until that changes we'll always have trouble getting dual nationals in my opinion.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

"hey it sounds like you're from America..."

In my experience, somehow the English are by far the best at detecting the Canadian accent. I’ve had my accent called out multiple times travelling and I definitely don’t have a thick yeah bud going out for a rip there, eh accent either

Was boating in Mallorca a few years ago, a big yacht pulls next to us with this British family on it, and the dad calls out like “oi you all Canadian? I could tell the accent, my daughter loves Canadian television! We watch it on Netflix!”

Still to this day I’ve racked my brain trying to figure out what they could possibly be talking about. Didn’t strike me as the trailer park boys fan type. 

[PastPros]

14 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

In my experience, somehow the English are by far the best at detecting the Canadian accent. I’ve had my accent called out multiple times travelling and I definitely don’t have a thick yeah bud going out for a rip there, eh accent either

Was boating in Mallorca a few years ago, a big yacht pulls next to us with this British family on it, and the dad calls out like “oi you all Canadian? I could tell the accent, my daughter loves Canadian television! We watch it on Netflix!”

Still to this day I’ve racked my brain trying to figure out what they could possibly be talking about. Didn’t strike me as the trailer park boys fan type. 

Schitt's Creek

[toontownman]

Corner gas lol

[InglewoodJack]

18 minutes ago, PastPros said:

Schitt's Creek

My guess, but do people even clock this as a Canadian show? It took me a while to realize it was Canadian aside from just having a bunch of Levys in the cast.

Letterkenney surprisingly has a lot of international appeal too. Shorsey as well, but I don’t think it had come out by then. I do know surprisingly young people (born after 1995) still watch Degrassi religiously too.

[maplebanana]

41 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

In my experience, somehow the English are by far the best at detecting the Canadian accent. 

Americans are good at it too, considering they know the subtle differences. It took me about 5 years living in the US to be able to hear the Canadian accent (got mine called out a couple of times too). It really made sense when I realized we don't actually say 'aboot', it's more like 'aboat' and americans say 'abowt'. And 'sorey' vs 'sarry'.

[InglewoodJack]

19 minutes ago, maplebanana said:

Americans are good at it too, considering they know the subtle differences. It took me about 5 years living in the US to be able to hear the Canadian accent (got mine called out a couple of times too). It really made sense when I realized we don't actually say 'aboot', it's more like 'aboat' and americans say 'abowt'. And 'sorey' vs 'sarry'.

You find? I've been surprised at how bad Americans are at this- I've gotten a few people in New England ask me something like "now I know you aren't from here but I can't place where..." even in places like Vermont where they practically speak with the same accent as us; they know it's different, but not from where. Granted, I grew up in Quebec, and our english accent is a lot closer to American than other places, owing to the fact that most of us relied heavier on (mostly Ameircan) entertainment and media to learn English than other provinces. 

On this same trip in Mallorca, my girlfriend and I ended up splitting a cab with these American girls, and when one asked me "which state are you guys from" and I told them I was from Canada, this woman was completely shocked- "I didn't know other countries spoke like us... wow...". As a good polite Canadian I didn't say anything, but one spoke in a thick LA accent and the other was clearly midwestern, and I sat there thinking like... "how do *I* know this but they don't...". Funny is, my girlfriend isn't even from Canada or the states, and they couldn't believe that people in other countries speak fluent english in a typical north american accent.

[maplebanana]

19 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

You find? I've been surprised at how bad Americans are at this- I've gotten a few people in New England ask me something like "now I know you aren't from here but I can't place where..." even in places like Vermont where they practically speak with the same accent as us; they know it's different, but not from where. Granted, I grew up in Quebec, and our english accent is a lot closer to American than other places, owing to the fact that most of us relied heavier on (mostly Ameircan) entertainment and media to learn English than other provinces. 

On this same trip in Mallorca, my girlfriend and I ended up splitting a cab with these American girls, and when one asked me "which state are you guys from" and I told them I was from Canada, this woman was completely shocked- "I didn't know other countries spoke like us... wow...". As a good polite Canadian I didn't say anything, but one spoke in a thick LA accent and the other was clearly midwestern, and I sat there thinking like... "how do *I* know this but they don't...". Funny is, my girlfriend isn't even from Canada or the states, and they couldn't believe that people in other countries speak fluent english in a typical north american accent.

It certainly isn't 100% of americans, but I've never had an experience outside of North America where they recognized my accent as Canadian instead of American. And I've been told by an American that out of my friends I have the strongest Canadian accent. Probably due to the Ottawa Valley in me. 'Just gon take my tree wheeler out n' fockin' giv'r'

My wife hates that I can turn on and off my valley accent. 

[InglewoodJack]

34 minutes ago, maplebanana said:

It certainly isn't 100% of americans, but I've never had an experience outside of North America where they recognized my accent as Canadian instead of American. And I've been told by an American that out of my friends I have the strongest Canadian accent. Probably due to the Ottawa Valley in me. 'Just gon take my tree wheeler out n' fockin' giv'r'

My wife hates that I can turn on and off my valley accent. 

I do that with my french too- my french side is from Northern Ontario, so when I speak French for extended periods of time, especially when I'm having drinks, that accent really starts poking through- J'ahm ben fort mon truck pis mes grrros tires" . (both english words in that sentence pronounced in english). Speaking to people from France like that and just seeing their face go completely blank is always funny. I pray these people one day get the opportunity to talk to someone who can speak Chiac or even better, a Cajun.

Edited April 5 by InglewoodJack

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

In my experience, somehow the English are by far the best at detecting the Canadian accent. I’ve had my accent called out multiple times travelling and I definitely don’t have a thick yeah bud going out for a rip there, eh accent either

Was boating in Mallorca a few years ago, a big yacht pulls next to us with this British family on it, and the dad calls out like “oi you all Canadian? I could tell the accent, my daughter loves Canadian television! We watch it on Netflix!”

Still to this day I’ve racked my brain trying to figure out what they could possibly be talking about. Didn’t strike me as the trailer park boys fan type. 

I certainly can now pick out Canadian accent(s) a lot better after living in England than I did after living in the States.  To be fair, I was younger and picked up the American accent a lot more than ever did the British one.  

I am/was very nervous about my spoken French, full stop, but even more so after it being called out as Quebecois when I did bits of a presentation in French when I was in England. 

[Bertuzzi44]

There's lots of good Canadian television. Let's not sell ourselves short there - we have a lot of talent in this country!

[Obinna]

31 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

There's lots of good Canadian television. Let's not sell ourselves short there - we have a lot of talent in this country!

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

In my experience, somehow the English are by far the best at detecting the Canadian accent. I’ve had my accent called out multiple times travelling and I definitely don’t have a thick yeah bud going out for a rip there, eh accent either

Speaking of TV....I think it has a funny way of revealing or magnifying accents. 

I had a buddy who was a good curler and was giving an interview on television post match. When I heard him speak, the Newfie accent really came through the TV screen in a way that blew me away!

In normal life, I didn't even notice his accent, or considered him as having a strong accent, but there it was......and there was no denying it