Atiba Hutchinson

[Unnamed Trialist]

When you watch Atiba, and I think also some Arfield matches, you can't help think: if we just had six or seven guys playing at this level, we'd be set. I think it the whole time watching them (Ive watched Burnley little this year as I lost EPL from my tv package, have no idea why). Both cases, you see they are strong pieces on teams that compete at a high level. But we need to have this in all lines, a keeper, two central defenders, two mids, a striker, all top flight. And the rest premium second tier players.

All we have ever had was one Forrest, or a Radz, or then Stalteri, and Julian, just odds and ends. So what we really need is for our widening pool to pay off with some guys rising to a higher status. 

[baulderdash77]

I started to write a long post about it but it got depressing and condescending so I deleted it.  

Anyway we are such a long time away from the point when we can field a lineup of all Hutch players that it's almost inconceivable.

[Vince193]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

When you watch Atiba, and I think also some Arfield matches, you can't help think: if we just had six or seven guys playing at this level, we'd be set. I think it the whole time watching them (Ive watched Burnley little this year as I lost EPL from my tv package, have no idea why). Both cases, you see they are strong pieces on teams that compete at a high level. But we need to have this in all lines, a keeper, two central defenders, two mids, a striker, all top flight. And the rest premium second tier players.

All we have ever had was one Forrest, or a Radz, or then Stalteri, and Julian, just odds and ends. So what we really need is for our widening pool to pay off with some guys rising to a higher status. 

We have an unfortunate trend with a # of players where they are at a good team during their development teen years and then boom they transfer to a third or fourth division team never to emerge again, yet still get called up regularly to the national team. Piette being the obvious example.

[WheatsheafSK]

2 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I started to write a long post about it but it got depressing and condescending so I deleted it.  

Anyway we are such a long time away from the point when we can field a lineup of all Hutch players that it's almost inconceivable.

1 hour ago, Vince193 said:

We have an unfortunate trend with a # of players where they are at a good team during their development teen years and then boom they transfer to a third or fourth division team never to emerge again, yet still get called up regularly to the national team. Piette being the obvious example.

 

I would argue there is optimism for the future - but five-ten years down the road.  We are better off now than we were five-seven years ago where it seemed like half the CMNT team was unattached and it looked thin down the levels.  Now we have a solid base at the lower levels.  We get more guys playing at third level England/Germany/Spain, soon we will have a consistent number of guys playing in second tiers. We are building a base, and the more Canadian players can break through consistently then doors will open for other Canucks.  MLS/NASL/USL Canadian teams has meant we have more guys staying in the game longer.  As those clubs youth programs develop, it will only be a matter of time until we see more Canadians at higher levels.  Here in Ontario, OSA has also been doing a better job on giving direction to youth teams from a young.  A lot of work still needs to be done, but there is definitely improvement across the board.  

The shame is for guys like Hutch who have such talent and dedication and have been so important to the national program, but will not be around to be on a the team when we do have quality across the XI.  

[Macksam]

It was a dissapointing ending, but Hutch was solid throughout even though most wouldn't notice him, but his positioning is the reason Besiktas were able to compose themselves and not get run over on the pitch, but you could tell he was gassed by the end of the 120 minutes played. 

Anyhow, he is a national hero IMO. A sports icon this country should recognize. I'm going to lobby Brampton's city hall to declare February 8'th Atiba Hutchinson Day.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Macksam

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Vince193 said:

We have an unfortunate trend with a # of players where they are at a good team during their development teen years and then boom they transfer to a third or fourth division team never to emerge again, yet still get called up regularly to the national team. Piette being the obvious example.

I think as you describe it, "never to emerge again", makes Piette a very bad example. He was playing for Deportivo de la Coruña less than a year ago, sure on the 2nd team. And played promotion playoff. If they'd gone up he'd probably still be there, playing at the exact same level as he is now, Spainish third tier.

Of the never to emerge agains, the most longlasting is Kenny Stamatopolous. I think you have to see a player really wallowing in a lower division in his mid to late 20s to be able to make the point.

[Club Linesman]

7 hours ago, WheatsheafSK said:

 

I would argue there is optimism for the future - but five-ten years down the road.  We are better off now than we were five-seven years ago where it seemed like half the CMNT team was unattached and it looked thin down the levels.  Now we have a solid base at the lower levels.

I certainly agree that things are slowly looking up overall for the talent pool and that it will take years to pay off at the national team level.  One interesting thought is how the overall talent pool could increase significantly if some of the dual nationals commit to Canada with the momentum gained from the bid for the World Cup.  Hopefully Ferraira and Cristante commit, as does Tabla, and Davies develops into a player and finally Henry recovers and plays in a second tier league.  If we had those guys in addition to Arfield and Hoilett, and guys playing significant minutes in MLS we would be in great shape for Qatar.

[Watchmen]

18 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Both bans and fines can be appealed. I don't know what Watchmen was thinking trying to shit-disturb with that post. After disgusting Leicester fan behaviour in Madrid last week they should be banned from away travel. But since Leicester will never play European football ever again, for the next 30 years, until I am totally vegetating, I guess there is nothing to worry about.

I legitimately thought they had been banned, and that it would be a good opportunity for one of the Canadian based MLS clubs to take a serious run at him.  But thanks for the automatic assumption I was shit-disturbing.

The Leicester fan behaviour was unacceptable and their fans should be banned.  I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic.  I guess you're just shit-disturbing against EPL fans.

[Macksam]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I legitimately thought they had been banned, and that it would be a good opportunity for one of the Canadian based MLS clubs to take a serious run at him.  But thanks for the automatic assumption I was shit-disturbing.

The Leicester fan behaviour was unacceptable and their fans should be banned.  I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic.  I guess you're just shit-disturbing against EPL fans.

Turkish soccer fans are fucking insane no doubt. Quite possibly the most intimidating I have ever seen. The whole stadium acted like ultras and stood up the whole match....I love it.

What did Leicester fans do?

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I legitimately thought they had been banned, and that it would be a good opportunity for one of the Canadian based MLS clubs to take a serious run at him.  But thanks for the automatic assumption I was shit-disturbing.

The Leicester fan behaviour was unacceptable and their fans should be banned.  I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic.  I guess you're just shit-disturbing against EPL fans.

You being so quick off the draw for those Turks, apart from being wrong, looked suspect to me. But I am sure you are a big fan of Turkish football and would never suggest Hutch go to a ass-dragging EPL side for the wrong reasons--like you being one of their fan boys?

[BrennanFan]

On 4/21/2017 at 2:54 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

When you watch Atiba, and I think also some Arfield matches, you can't help think: if we just had six or seven guys playing at this level, we'd be set. I think it the whole time watching them (Ive watched Burnley little this year as I lost EPL from my tv package, have no idea why). Both cases, you see they are strong pieces on teams that compete at a high level. But we need to have this in all lines, a keeper, two central defenders, two mids, a striker, all top flight. And the rest premium second tier players.

All we have ever had was one Forrest, or a Radz, or then Stalteri, and Julian, just odds and ends. So what we really need is for our widening pool to pay off with some guys rising to a higher status. 

 

Our high water mark for players in Top Flights happened in 2004-2008.  What a drop off to our situation today.

 

2004

Stalteri - Bremen, Germany

deGuzman - Hannover, Germany

Radzinski - Everton, England

Brennan - Norwich, England

Jazic- Kuban, Russia

Klukowski - La Louvier, Belgium

Imhof - St. Gallen, Switzerland

McKenna - Hearts, Scotland

Hirschfeld - Dundee, Scotland

Hutchinson - Helsingborg, Sweden

Bernier - Tromso, Norway

Occean - Odd, Norway

 

2008

deGuzman - La Coruna, Spain

McKenna - Koln, Germany

Friend - Monchengladbach, Germany

Imhof - Bochum, Germany

Stalteri - Tottenham, England

DeJong - Roda, Netherlands

Klukowski - Brugge, Belgium

Hutchinson - Copenhagen, Denmark

Issey - Nordsjaeland, Denmark

Bernier - Nordsjaeland, Denmark

Radzinski - Xanthi, Greece

Hainault - Sparta Prague, Czech Republic

Hastings - Inverness, Scotland

Jakovic - Red Star, Serbia

Hirschfeld - Cluj, Romania

Occean - Lillestrom, Norway

 

 

[Guest]

Just because its a top flight team it does not mean they are good. Like come on if you play for Red Star or Xanthi is that really a "top flight" quality team. A lot of these players are playing mediocre teams abroad compared to now because a lot of the players now play in the MLS

[Gordon]

On 2017-04-21 at 7:50 AM, WheatsheafSK said:

 

I would argue there is optimism for the future - but five-ten years down the road.  We are better off now than we were five-seven years ago where it seemed like half the CMNT team was unattached and it looked thin down the levels.  

If I had a dollar for every time a sentence like this was written on this board I'd have enough to fly First Class to Cardiff and watch the Champions League final from a luxury box.

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, canta15 said:

Just because its a top flight team it does not mean they are good. Like come on if you play for Red Star or Xanthi is that really a "top flight" quality team. A lot of these players are playing mediocre teams abroad compared to now because a lot of the players now play in the MLS

Some of those players were playing at an MLS level, but by my count we had 7 players playing at a higher level at that time. That team was our best team talent-wise of the last 20 years, unfortunately they were up against the best Honduran squad of the last 30 years with a much better coach than ours.

Re: BrennanFans list; Jakovic played all of 1 half at Red Star so i would not have bothered listing him. Radz scored 15 goals for Xanthi (top 5 scorer in Greece) at a time when the Superleague was much stronger than it is now. Also Tam Nsaliwa was at AEK, but had given up his Canadian citizenship. And on further note, i still can't believe Imhof was never called for that qualifying campaign.

[shermanator]

On 21/04/2017 at 7:50 AM, WheatsheafSK said:

I would argue there is optimism for the future - but five-ten years own the road.  We are better off now than we were five-seven years ago where it seemed like half the CMNT team was unattached and it looked thin down the levels.  

People always say there is reason for optimism. And it's proving to be increasingly naive. The fact is that this is a national team that doesn't get results at any age level. Consider the following results:

- Haven't qualified for the World Cup in 32 years (going on 36)

- Haven't made the Hex in 20 years (going on 24)

- Haven't made the Gold Cup knockout round in 8 years.

- Haven't qualified for the Olympics ever, and have only qualified for the Pan Am games automatically.

- Haven't qualified for the U-20 World Cup in 10 years (going on 12), where they qualified automatically and finished in last place.

- Haven't qualified for the U-17 World Cup 4 years.

We are still very thin in every position. We have 2 players (one developed by another country) in top flight England, one of which never sees the pitch for that club, and 2 players in the second tier. We have no players in the top 2 tiers of Germany, Spain, France or Italy, and one player in the second tier in Portugal. No one in top flight Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, etc.

Really, we have a handful of players to get excited about, but not much more. Larin is one. Davies, if he continues to progress, is another. Tabla (if he decides to play for Canada and continutes to progress) is another. Outside of that, where are these top level talents? I don't see them.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Basically what we are saying is that we need an amazing coach and an incredible run, for like 3 years, and then we can find ourselves playing over our heads, getting another Gold Cup or going to the WC.

Without ever having to worry about whether the player pool, on paper, was strong enough.

[Watchmen]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You being so quick off the draw for those Turks, apart from being wrong, looked suspect to me. But I am sure you are a big fan of Turkish football and would never suggest Hutch go to a ass-dragging EPL side for the wrong reasons--like you being one of their fan boys?

I never mentioned the EPL or said the Turkish league was bad.  I (incorrectly) thought the team was banned from Europe and thought that Hutch might use that as another reason (on top of all the civil unrest and rumours that he wants to go) as a reason for him to look elsewhere.  *You* jumped to the conclusion (based on literally zero evidence) that I was shit-disturbing and now you're being too big of a dick to apologize. 

[Gian-Luca]

6 hours ago, shermanator said:

- Haven't qualified for the Olympics ever

 

Leaving aside 1976 when we qualified as hosts, how then did we manage to get the quarter-finals of 1984 Olympics, only to lose to the silver-medalists from Brazil on a penalty-shoot out?

[shermanator]

12 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Leaving aside 1976 when we qualified as hosts, how then did we manage to get the quarter-finals of 1984 Olympics, only to lose to the silver-medalists from Brazil on a penalty-shoot out?

Fair enough. Okay, so the U-23 team hasn't qualified for the Olympics 32 years going on 36. I would argue the point still stands that optimism for our national teams is incredibly naive at this point.

[Acid-Tone]

On 4/22/2017 at 10:19 AM, BrennanFan said:

 

Our high water mark for players in Top Flights happened in 2004-2008.  What a drop off to our situation today.

 

2004

Stalteri - Bremen, Germany

deGuzman - Hannover, Germany

Radzinski - Everton, England

Brennan - Norwich, England

Jazic- Kuban, Russia

Klukowski - La Louvier, Belgium

Imhof - St. Gallen, Switzerland

McKenna - Hearts, Scotland

Hirschfeld - Dundee, Scotland

Hutchinson - Helsingborg, Sweden

Bernier - Tromso, Norway

Occean - Odd, Norway

 

Also missing off this list from 2004 is Fernando Aguiar.  Who had a great season for Benfica, and yet was inexplicably not called up to represent Canada at the time.

[Watchmen]

23 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Leaving aside 1976 when we qualified as hosts, how then did we manage to get the quarter-finals of 1984 Olympics, only to lose to the silver-medalists from Brazil on a penalty-shoot out?

The Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc boycotted that Olympics.  I'm sure that played a factor. 

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

The Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc boycotted that Olympics.  I'm sure that played a factor. 

It did - for Italy, West Germany and Norway, all of whom qualified for the tourney because Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union and East Germany, respectively, boycotted the games after winning the respective groups with those teams.

However, this didn't make a scrap of difference for Canada who didn't have any of those teams in their group. The European team we got was Yugoslavia, who we lost to 1-0. However a 1-1 draw with Iraq and a 3-1 win over a Roger Milla-led Cameroon team that was coming off an undefeated World Cup performance two years before, enabled us to qualify for the quarter-finals irrespective of any boycott.  

 

[WheatsheafSK]

On 4/22/2017 at 3:21 PM, shermanator said:

People always say there is reason for optimism. And it's proving to be increasingly naive. The fact is that this is a national team that doesn't get results at any age level. Consider the following results: 

- Haven't qualified for the World Cup in 32 years (going on 36)

- Haven't made the Hex in 20 years (going on 24)

- Haven't made the Gold Cup knockout round in 8 years.

- Haven't qualified for the Olympics ever, and have only qualified for the Pan Am games automatically.

- Haven't qualified for the U-20 World Cup in 10 years (going on 12), where they qualified automatically and finished in last place.

- Haven't qualified for the U-17 World Cup 4 years.

We are still very thin in every position. We have 2 players (one developed by another country) in top flight England, one of which never sees the pitch for that club, and 2 players in the second tier. We have no players in the top 2 tiers of Germany, Spain, France or Italy, and one player in the second tier in Portugal. No one in top flight Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, etc.

Really, we have a handful of players to get excited about, but not much more. Larin is one. Davies, if he continues to progress, is another. Tabla (if he decides to play for Canada and continutes to progress) is another. Outside of that, where are these top level talents? I don't see them.

I have only been on this forum for five or six years, so I do not have the benefit of many longtooth here who remember our glorious past and can extrapolate, based on history and the caliber of current players, to foresee how shite our future is.  I promise to refrain from any expression of optimisms, and to hold true to the Forum practice of proclaiming the next coming of St. Messi at the first signing of a pro-contract and then shitting all over the player for not jumping to Tier 9 for playing time instead of playing for a Tier 2 reserve side.  Forever we are and forever we will remain shite!

Carry on

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

I have only been on this forum for five or six years, so I do not have the benefit of many longtooth here who remember our glorious past and can extrapolate, based on history and the caliber of current players, to foresee how shite our future is.  I promise to refrain from any expression of optimisms, and to hold true to the Forum practice of proclaiming the next coming of St. Messi at the first signing of a pro-contract and then shitting all over the player for not jumping to Tier 9 for playing time instead of playing for a Tier 2 reserve side.  Forever we are and forever we will remain shite!

Carry on

Not really what anyone is saying IMO.  They are simply suggesting that there have been enough false dawns re the golden future of Canadian footy that a bit of caution might be prudent.  To shermanator's point, there is really nothing so exceptional about the current crop of up-and-comers that suggests we are on the path to glory.  The same group some are pegging for future success have failed to achieve any meaningful success at the youth level when playing against their peers.  That may seem like a minor footnote to some, but it is actually pretty important when we look at future potential.  We aren't the only one's developing talented youngsters, and our lack of infrastructure means we are likely developing it at a poorer rate than many countries already demonstrably ahead of us in the region.

Be optimistic all you want.  Just be aware that some have had it beaten out of them by some absolutely fucking soul crushing defeats.    And in the absence of any kind of compelling evidence that we have turned a developmental corner in a way that will allow us to overtake countries like Panama, CR, Honduras, etc., people will likely continue to suggest some degree of caution.

[dennis]

We were better in that era. You can also add DeRo, Josh Simpson, I'd also take Adrian Serioux over the likes of Samuel Piette or Adam Straith. The following screenshot from Transfermarket clearly illustrates this.(Left side: Present, right side: 2008)

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by dennis
Picture didn't attach.