Atiba Hutchinson

[WheatsheafSK]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

Not really what anyone is saying IMO.  They are simply suggesting that there have been enough false dawns re the golden future of Canadian footy that a bit of caution might be prudent.  To shermanator's point, there is really nothing so exceptional about the current crop of up-and-comers that suggests we are on the path to glory.  The same group some are pegging for future success have failed to achieve any meaningful success at the youth level when playing against their peers.  That may seem like a minor footnote to some, but it is actually pretty important when we look at future potential.  We aren't the only one's developing talented youngsters, and our lack of infrastructure means we are likely developing it at a poorer rate than many countries already demonstrably ahead of us in the region.

Be optimistic all you want.  Just be aware that some have had it beaten out of them by some absolutely fucking soul crushing defeats.    And in the absence of any kind of compelling evidence that we have turned a developmental corner in a way that will allow us to overtake countries like Panama, CR, Honduras, etc., people will likely continue to suggest some degree of caution.

Since it is my post, and in IMHO, I am going to completely disagree you.  Overall message is that it is rather amusing that anyone takes issue with the word "optimism".  Shermanator's point was that we have no history to be proud of and we should accept that we will always suck, but it is okay to be excited for a few players.  I don't want to be excited by one or two players, I want to be excited by the whole team.  On this forum, people are so fickle about individual players that is seems pointless to point to one or two players as holding the promise of CMNT.  My original point where I had the gall to type "optimism" was that we have more players at a lower-level and that is a sign of improvement, but only the start of what needs to be done.  The only way we have a chance of qualifying for Qatar is to have a full team of Hutch-caliber players.   

Which coming back to your false dawns and prudent approach comment - my comments are completely on topic. Once again, I just find it funny that anyone would take issue with mildly positive comment.

 

[WheatsheafSK]

On 4/22/2017 at 11:19 AM, BrennanFan said:

 

Our high water mark for players in Top Flights happened in 2004-2008.  What a drop off to our situation today.

 

2004

Stalteri - Bremen, Germany

deGuzman - Hannover, Germany

Radzinski - Everton, England

Brennan - Norwich, England

Jazic- Kuban, Russia

Klukowski - La Louvier, Belgium

Imhof - St. Gallen, Switzerland

McKenna - Hearts, Scotland

Hirschfeld - Dundee, Scotland

Hutchinson - Helsingborg, Sweden

Bernier - Tromso, Norway

Occean - Odd, Norway

 

2008

deGuzman - La Coruna, Spain

McKenna - Koln, Germany

Friend - Monchengladbach, Germany

Imhof - Bochum, Germany

Stalteri - Tottenham, England

DeJong - Roda, Netherlands

Klukowski - Brugge, Belgium

Hutchinson - Copenhagen, Denmark

Issey - Nordsjaeland, Denmark

Bernier - Nordsjaeland, Denmark

Radzinski - Xanthi, Greece

Hainault - Sparta Prague, Czech Republic

Hastings - Inverness, Scotland

Jakovic - Red Star, Serbia

Hirschfeld - Cluj, Romania

Occean - Lillestrom, Norway

 

 

There is a notable omission from that list - our leading scorer from the 04-08 era (DeRo aside): Ali Gerba.

Edited April 24, 2017 by WheatsheafSK

[Obinna]

Yes and the other thing about that list is that it doesn't account for the shift towards MLS as that league grows in quality and becomes a viable place for internationals to play.

Osorio, Teibert, De Jong, Edgar, Ricketts, Akindele, Johnson, Larin, Bernier: That is 9 players right there who'd all be playing somewhere decent in Europe if it wasn't for MLS being such a good league. This list doesn't account for that.

If that 2008 group was around right now, most of those guys would likely be playing in the MLS of today. I don't think McKenna, Friend, Imhof, Radzinski, Occean and Klukowski would reject MLS offers when you consider the players coming over now with TAM money and whatnot. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Obinna

[Bison44]

Its also harder to get into the top flights now than it was 10-15 years ago.  The global movement of players just keeps increasing and the top leagues skim the talent from EVERYWHERE.  Not sure if some of those guys would make it to the top leagues now, competition is so fierce and the level of play is so high.  

[Big_M]

Can't compare players who played in mls at their best with ones that played in b1,premier league,liga. Positive is that we have more players playing regularly now.

[jpg75]

26 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

If that 2008 group was around right now, most of those guys would likely be playing in the MLS of today. I don't think McKenna, Friend, Imhof, Radzinski, Occean and Klukowski would reject MLS offers when you consider the players coming over now with TAM money and whatnot. 

Pretty sure all of those players were making over the MLS max. salary. Even with TAM only a few of those guys might come over for monetary reasons, but even then most of those guys were making 400K Euros or more and playing at a stronger level.

[shermanator]

3 hours ago, WheatsheafSK said:

Since it is my post, and in IMHO, I am going to completely disagree you.  Overall message is that it is rather amusing that anyone takes issue with the word "optimism".  Shermanator's point was that we have no history to be proud of and we should accept that we will always suck, but it is okay to be excited for a few players.  I don't want to be excited by one or two players, I want to be excited by the whole team.  On this forum, people are so fickle about individual players that is seems pointless to point to one or two players as holding the promise of CMNT.  My original point where I had the gall to type "optimism" was that we have more players at a lower-level and that is a sign of improvement, but only the start of what needs to be done.  The only way we have a chance of qualifying for Qatar is to have a full team of Hutch-caliber players.   

Which coming back to your false dawns and prudent approach comment - my comments are completely on topic. Once again, I just find it funny that anyone would take issue with mildly positive comment.

 

Looks like someone doesn't like the reality check that I gave, one which many posters happen to agree with, by the way.

The first tournament I followed as a Voyageur was the 2011 Gold Cup. I remember being embarrassed that Canada didn't make the quarterfinals. Little did I know, embarrassment at the results was the standard that I needed to get accustomed to. Perhaps you're not fully used to that yet.

Yes, Canada has more players in lower leagues than years past. However, until this country can consistently produce players that can make the top levels, it's not going to reflect in the results. At the same time the game in this country is making baby steps in the right direction, so are the countries we are competing against. And CONCACAF is focused on helping the Caribbean nations which are well behind Canada close the gap. IMO, at the rate things are progressing, Canada will soon be the minnow in CONCACAF, if we aren't already.

[Keegan]

6 hours ago, shermanator said:

Looks like someone doesn't like the reality check that I gave, one which many posters happen to agree with, by the way.

The first tournament I followed as a Voyageur was the 2011 Gold Cup. I remember being embarrassed that Canada didn't make the quarterfinals. Little did I know, embarrassment at the results was the standard that I needed to get accustomed to. Perhaps you're not fully used to that yet.

Yes, Canada has more players in lower leagues than years past. However, until this country can consistently produce players that can make the top levels, it's not going to reflect in the results. At the same time the game in this country is making baby steps in the right direction, so are the countries we are competing against. And CONCACAF is focused on helping the Caribbean nations which are well behind Canada close the gap. IMO, at the rate things are progressing, Canada will soon be the minnow in CONCACAF, if we aren't already.

I agree with most of what you're saying but had to pull this part out.  Looking back at the players in 2008, I agree that in terms of club situation that was our prime.. but what did they do?  Less than the past 2 WCQ cycles for sure... that generation had one accomplishment and it was the 2007 Gold Cup Semis.  Meanwhile teams who had/have fewer players playing at "big clubs" consistently run over us.  Look at Honduras, Panama, Jamaica etc. I don't see any guys starring in first divisions.. none of those teams have Hutchinsons but they have strength in depth, for every 1 Scott Arfield they have about 4 Armando Coopers.  And when you're inevitably missing star players we're dead in the water, while their pool is hardly affected. 

I don't think having 4-5 players at big clubs does anything for you, I think it's much more important to have identity and play as a team as our CONCACAF rivals do... that is what MLS is (hopefully) bringing us towards.  

[Obinna]

11 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Pretty sure all of those players were making over the MLS max. salary. Even with TAM only a few of those guys might come over for monetary reasons, but even then most of those guys were making 400K Euros or more and playing at a stronger level.

Why would that be the case? If they can make a similar salary and play in North America, I think most would take it! The only players who wouldn't (perhaps) are the ones who aspire to climb further up the ladder.

It's not like McKenna, for example, was going to stay in Europe and play for a bigger club than FC Koln. Did Klukowski ever look likely to play for a better team than Club Brugge? If Victor Vazquez wanted to make his way to Toronto FC from Club Brugge, why wouldn't a Toronto-native like Klukowski want that?

Now a days, someone like Klukowski could get strong competition week-in and week-out in MLS. No need to stay in Belgium really. There are so many internationals coming to MLS with TAM money. I don't see why Canadians would be the exception. If anything, they'd be chomping at the bit to come home, and indeed they are, as nearly half of our pool now plays in MLS. I would argue it is our better half as well, since we have two or three high level players in Europe and the rest are playing at levels well below MLS.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Obinna said:

Why would that be the case? If they can make a similar salary and play in North America, I think most would take it! The only players who wouldn't (perhaps) are the ones who aspire to climb further up the ladder.

It's not like McKenna, for example, was going to stay in Europe and play for a bigger club than FC Koln. Did Klukowski ever look likely to play for a better team than Club Brugge? If Victor Vazquez wanted to make his way to Toronto FC from Club Brugge, why wouldn't a Toronto-native like Klukowski want that?

Now a days, someone like Klukowski could get strong competition week-in and week-out in MLS. No need to stay in Belgium really. There are so many internationals coming to MLS with TAM money. I don't see why Canadians would be the exception. If anything, they'd be chomping at the bit to come home, and indeed they are, as nearly half of our pool now plays in MLS. I would argue it is our better half as well, since we have two or three high level players in Europe and the rest are playing at levels well below MLS.

One problem is that coming home to MLS is a crap shoot. You can be traded and have no say, so you come home to TO or Québec and then they trade you to play in Utah, or they get allocation money and you end up in Atlanta. You are not home. 

Any league that cannot honour the contract conditions (and a player's union unable to defend players' rights) is unstable, and not too inviting. In any case, in Europe the season promises Champions League or Europa competition, really competitive Cup competitions (not  like ours), leagues with relegation so late season games matter for 2/3s of all teams. The edge is higher even when salary and competitive level, in general terms, are the same.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

One problem is that coming home to MLS is a crap shoot. You can be traded and have no say, so you come home to TO or Québec and then they trade you to play in Utah, or they get allocation money and you end up in Atlanta. You are not home. 

Any league that cannot honour the contract conditions (and a player's union unable to defend players' rights) is unstable, and not too inviting. In any case, in Europe the season promises Champions League or Europa competition, really competitive Cup competitions (not  like ours), leagues with relegation so late season games matter for 2/3s of all teams. The edge is higher even when salary and competitive level, in general terms, are the same.

I think anywhere in North America is "home" compared to Europe. You could make an argument about the UK, where the language is the same and the culture is similar, but the rest of Europe is quite foreign, especially when our players are in obscure leagues like Israel or Cyprus or Turkey. Even Finland or Norway would feel strange in comparison to a city like Atlanta. I don't buy that argument. 

As for Europa and Champions League competition, we only have 1 or 2 players in those tournaments anyways. Those are the players that should (and have) stayed in Europe. We are talking about the bulk of the squad not our most talented players. 

Speaking of "edge", relegation battles are a double edged sword in my opinion. Having something to play for is valuable, but going down to a weaker division isn't. Truth be told, players prefer the stability in MLS. Not only is there competition stability, but financial stability as well.

[Obinna]

23 hours ago, Big_M said:

Can't compare players who played in mls at their best with ones that played in b1,premier league,liga. 

That is like saying you can't compare Rob Friend with DeRosario. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think anywhere in North America is "home" compared to Europe. You could make an argument about the UK, where the language is the same and the culture is similar, but the rest of Europe is quite foreign, especially when our players are in obscure leagues like Israel or Cyprus or Turkey. Even Finland or Norway would feel strange in comparison to a city like Atlanta. I don't buy that argument. 

As for Europa and Champions League competition, we only have 1 or 2 players in those tournaments anyways. Those are the players that should (and have) stayed in Europe. We are talking about the bulk of the squad not our most talented players. 

Speaking of "edge", relegation battles are a double edged sword in my opinion. Having something to play for is valuable, but going down to a weaker division isn't. Truth be told, players prefer the stability in MLS. Not only is there competition stability, but financial stability as well.

If you are more at home in Dallas or Atlanta or Salt Lake City than Copenhagen or Brussels, I'd argue you are probably a fully estranged Canadian who has lost his north. 

In any case, your bias that a Canadian has to feel comfortable in the UK is just that, a bias, and totally unsubstantiated. I have actually never heard a single Canadian player ever say they were uncomfortable in a place because of the language, or even the food, or the lifestyle. The quality of the football, their contract, and place on the squad and opportunities have also been way more important. Which is why our guys sign all over the world, they are a hell of a lot less provincially minded than you are. 

But hey, a guy who calls Israel and Turkey obscure leagues, implicitly suggesting Wales or Northern Ireland are "normal" (being English-speaking UK leagues), obviously is really reaching. And Israel, I mean, a fully English-speaking country. If I were an English-speaking Canadian from a Jewish background I'd pick Israel over Wales or Northern Ireland or Scotland any day, club level being equal.

Edit: just have to add, since I find your post so totally off-base. You prefer a player taking a soft safe option, spending maybe a few months at the end of the season coasting with nothing to play for in a bottom-dwelling team, than being totally sharp in a promotion or relegation battle. Well I disagree: I prefer a player playing his guts out to stay up against your easy coasters, which is your description of cushy, low-risk MLS. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[Big_M]

There are exceptions. De Rosario was high quality.

[Obinna]

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If you are more at home in Dallas or Atlanta or Salt Lake City than Copenhagen or Brussels, I'd argue you are probably a fully estranged Canadian who has lost his north. 

In any case, your bias that a Canadian has to feel comfortable in the UK is just that, a bias, and totally unsubstantiated. I have actually never heard a single Canadian player ever say they were uncomfortable in a place because of the language, or even the food, or the lifestyle. The quality of the football, their contract, and place on the squad and opportunities have also been way more important. Which is why our guys sign all over the world, they are a hell of a lot less provincially minded than you are. 

But hey, a guy who calls Israel and Turkey obscure leagues, implicitly suggesting Wales or Northern Ireland are "normal" (being English-speaking UK leagues), obviously is really reaching. And Israel, I mean, a fully English-speaking country. If I were an English-speaking Canadian from a Jewish background I'd pick Israel over Wales or Northern Ireland or Scotland any day, club level being equal.

 

Saying I am probably a fully Estranged Canadian who has lost his north is not an argument. It is an ad hominem.

First of all, the language in Copenhagen or Brussels is different. Second of all, the culture is much less familiar. What about the physical distance and isolation from family and friends? Are you really attempting to argue that Canadians are not going to feel "at home" in the US compared to Europe? 

I am not saying a Canadian has to feel comfortable in the UK. I am saying that a Canadian is going to feel more at home in the UK than say Turkey, or even Belgium. The language is the same and culture is more familiar. We are part of the British Commonwealth have you forgotten? I'm not even saying that Britian is home either, I am just generously throwing a bone to anyone who'd argue that playing in the US is not "home" compared to Europe. 

Turkey is culturely obscure compared to Utah. That is my point. I should have left out the word "league" there. I am not implying that Wales is normal or anything like that. We all know that Turkey is a quality league, but we also know Istanbul cannot be considered close to "home" like New York or LA can.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Obinna

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, Big_M said:

There are exceptions. De Rosario was high quality.

Daniel Imhof played in the Bundesliga and Will Johnson has virtually played his entire career in MLS.

I get your point but at this time our best player (according to some) plays in MLS, so I think your statement is a generalization that doesn't account for the best MLS players that can play in the B1, epl or Liga.

[Big_M]

Imhof was great, would have played much more if it wasn't for his injuries

[RS]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Any league that cannot honour the contract conditions (and a player's union unable to defend players' rights) is unstable, and not too inviting. 

The ability to be traded is included in the contract of every MLS player (except certain DPs who have no-trade clauses built in).

[Obinna]

23 minutes ago, Big_M said:

Imhof was great, would have played much more if it wasn't for his injuries

I really liked Imhof too, but he's yet another example of a player who is comparable to an MLSer (in this case Will Johnson).

That is why I don't put much stock in the Euro-heavy squads from 2004 and 2008. I don't think it was some sort of high water mark. You can replace Sparta Prague, Lillestrom, Cluj, Red Star, Xanthi, Roda with Dallas, Montreal, Orlando, Toronto, DC and Vancouver - and we are no worse off. I would argue we are actually better off.

At Koln and Bochum (formerly of the Bundesliga), our guys were playing in a better competition, but the squads were not exactly head and shoulders above your typical MLS team of today. Besides, we are talking about individuals who would fit right into MLS, not stand out for their exceptional quality. 

I remember when most of us thought Edgar was too good to come play in MLS.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Obinna

[SuperCanuck]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Saying I am probably a fully Estranged Canadian who has lost his north is not an argument. It is an ad hominem.

First of all, the language in Copenhagen or Brussels is different. Second of all, the culture is much less familiar. What about the physical distance and isolation from family and friends? Are you really attempting to argue that Canadians are not going to feel "at home" in the US compared to Europe? 

I am not saying a Canadian has to feel comfortable in the UK. I am saying that a Canadian is going to feel more at home in the UK than say Turkey, or even Belgium. The language is the same and culture is more familiar. We are part of the British Commonwealth have you forgotten? I'm not even saying that Britian is home either, I am just generously throwing a bone to anyone who'd argue that playing in the US is not "home" compared to Europe. 

Turkey is culturely obscure compared to Utah. That is my point. I should have left out the word "league" there. I am not implying that Wales is normal or anything like that. We all know that Turkey is a quality league, but we also know Istanbul cannot be considered close to "home" like New York or LA can.

 

Mon dieu, I could have sworn we had a common language with Belgium.

Yep, nothing unusual about Utah.

Edited April 25, 2017 by SuperCanuck

[Big_M]

Imhof was better no question. And even better was de Guzman and we had Hutchinson. Now excluding Hutchinson our best cm is Johnson with a d3 Piette behind him. We were much better at cb,gk,lb,rb but our am's and strikers now are very interesting.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, SuperCanuck said:

Mon dieu, I could have sworn we had a common language with Belgium.

Yep, nothing unusual about Utah.

Unusual compared to Turkey?

Yeah they speak French in Belgium. They also speak French in Switzerland. Doesn't mean the average Canadian national team player is going to feel more at home there than in the UK.

The average Canadian NT player speaks English as a first language. It's probably going to stay that way if the Impact academy can't start producing more players for our youth teams. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Obinna

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Big_M said:

Imhof was better no question. And even better was de Guzman and we had Hutchinson. Now excluding Hutchinson our best cm is Johnson with a d3 Piette behind him. We were much better at cb,gk,lb,rb but our am's and strikers now are very interesting.

I wonder if that's a unanimous opinion on this board, that Imhof was better than Johnson, no question.

Funny you bring up de Guzman, as he actually left Spain for MLS in 2009. 

I would classify Arfield as our best cm behind Hutchinson.

[Big_M]

Arfield our best cam and player. Very interesting with Hoilett, Larin, Cavallini...

[Ruffian]

19 hours ago, Obinna said:

I remember when most of us thought Edgar was too good to come play in MLS.

I am pretty sure one of us ( @Unnamed Trialist ) didn't think a player from the English Championship was too good.