2023 Voyageurs Cup

[MM3/MM2/MM]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

 

I'm not surprised the L1s aren't receiving anything, but only because we've seen some L1O/ PLSQ clubs decline the Cup spot for financial reasons.

I don't recall any L1O or PLSQ clubs ever declining a Voyageur Cup spot.

[Cblake]

7 hours ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

I don't recall any L1O or PLSQ clubs ever declining a Voyageur Cup spot.

I am pretty sure there is some confusion between declining the spot and declining hosting.  Team have declined to host or in the case of some L1O teams in the GTA they played the match at the Ontario Soccer Centre. 

[Rocket Robin]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:45 PM, Cblake said:

I am pretty sure there is some confusion between declining the spot and declining hosting.  Team have declined to host or in the case of some L1O teams in the GTA they played the match at the Ontario Soccer Centre. 

I was told by some Vaughan directors that they were told Ontario Soccer Centre wasn't 'big enough' this year!  So they chose to be put in the 'away bowl east' just like the PLSQ team.  They hold the draw and 'no home games please' HFX Wanderers and Atletico Ottawa draw each other and suddenly York Lions Stadium is available for a doubleheader before the York United vs the new CPL Vancouver team.  

So the L1O schedule was released today.  They give a break to Vaughan by having them play the season opener on the Thursday night (April 13th) at home against North Toronto instead of on the weekend  before they travel to Montreal to play the MLS team Tuesday. 

[Cblake]

Have received confirmation that it is one ticket for both matches at York on August 19th. For those in the Toronto area , York Lions Stadium is hosting a Voyaguers Cup opening round double header, HFX vs. Ottawa at 5 pm and Vancouver York at 8 pm. Just got my ticket, looking forward to it. Still do not get why Ottawa was not allowed to host the match.

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

Damn that is a pretty sweet double header.  Great way (hopefully) to get people on board.  

[narduch]

Apparently the HFX party trip was canceled because Porter canceled the return flight

Edited April 17, 2023 by narduch

[Cblake]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Apparently the HFX party trip was canceled because Port canceled the return flight

I heard that last night, yeah the fan were suppose to fly with the team back after the game, having flown in earlier in the day. The team now flying back the next day but I guess the added costs was too much for the fans. Apparently Ottawa is doing a fan bus. 

With it being one ticket for both matches , they have to allocate tickets to each team, which means some seats will go empty for the other match. Looking at TicketMaster there are not a lot of tickets left overall I assume because of it. There quite a few unavailable sections. Interesting. 

York United FC vs. Vancouver FC Tickets Apr 19, 2023 Toronto, ON | Ticketmaster

[JamboAl]

We just found out that TSS Rovers who are hosting Valour have to bear the costs for flights and hotels for the visiting team.  This means that it will cost them $35,000 to play the game in Vancouver.  They have sold quite a few tickets so far but will be deep in the red.  If you want to support them, buy a ticket or donate a ticket.

 

[Cblake]

2 hours ago, JamboAl said:

We just found out that TSS Rovers who are hosting Valour have to bear the costs for flights and hotels for the visiting team.  This means that it will cost them $35,000 to play the game in Vancouver.  They have sold quite a few tickets so far but will be deep in the red.  If you want to support them, buy a ticket or donate a ticket.

 

That is ridiculous , the CSA has to have money set aside for situations like this. Also in the future the first round has to be very regional. Such as why is York hosting Vancouver FC and it is Valour making this trip to Vancouver.  They really need to take care of the D3 sides in this for greater good of growth or we could have a disaster on our hands at some point. CS Mont-Royal declined to host last year and I can see why if you are not sure about the commercial aspect of things. 

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

That is ridiculous , the CSA has to have money set aside for situations like this. Also in the future the first round has to be very regional. Such as why is York hosting Vancouver FC and it is Valour making this trip to Vancouver.  They really need to take care of the D3 sides in this for greater good of growth or we could have a disaster on our hands at some point. CS Mont-Royal declined to host last year and I can see why if you are not sure about the commercial aspect of things. 

The traveling team needs to be compensated. Full stop. Otherwise you could get a situation where a team plays 3 or 4 rounds without hosting, incurring $100k+ of expenses without any revenue. This situation with TSS seems unfortunate, but that is the reality of playing a cup tournament in a massive country that is not cheap to travel in which all but 3 teams are tiny outfits.

I'd like to see a setup where a fixed % of gate from each cup game goes into a pot to pay travel costs for all traveling teams in all rounds.

Edited April 5, 2023 by jonovision

[Watchmen]

Interesting that the CSB is pushing "L1Canada" but then not financially helping out with something that would really promote the L1 teams.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, JamboAl said:

We just found out that TSS Rovers who are hosting Valour have to bear the costs for flights and hotels for the visiting team.  This means that it will cost them $35,000 to play the game in Vancouver.  They have sold quite a few tickets so far but will be deep in the red.  If you want to support them, buy a ticket or donate a ticket.

 

How is it possible to donate a ticket?

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, jonovision said:

The traveling team needs to be compensated. Full stop. Otherwise you could get a situation where a team plays 3 or 4 rounds without hosting, incurring $100k+ of expenses without any revenue.

Which is one reason the home and away format has some advantages over single elimination.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Which is one reason the home and away format has some advantages over single elimination.

With the thin margins for all teams and fixture congestion, I don’t see this as being realistic economically.

[shorty]

11 hours ago, jonovision said:

I'd like to see a setup where a fixed % of gate from each cup game goes into a pot to pay travel costs for all traveling teams in all rounds.

Honestly, right? How hard is it to come up with a half dozen different models and recognize the pros and cons for each. This solution seems the most obvious one in the land of provincial transfer payments, but there are many potential solutions which address financial and geographical disparity to varying degrees:  host and visitors share travel costs 50-50 for each tie; prioritize regions over east-west balance until much later in the tournament; shut down CPL and L1 for 2 weeks and have a March Madness style tourney in one location. None are perfect but the current situation seems lazy and makes Cinderella runs less likely which is what makes cups so engaging worldwide. 

[JamboAl]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

How is it possible to donate a ticket?

In case you hadn’t already seen this, here it is:

 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, shorty said:

Honestly, right? How hard is it to come up with a half dozen different models and recognize the pros and cons for each. 

Obviously very hard as the CSA hasn't figured out how to do it yet and we're in year 16 of this tournament. 

The Rovers said it will cost them $35 000 to host.  There are 13 games in the tournament.  Even if they all cost that much to host (probably many do but probably many are less) it would be $450 k for the whole tournament.  Last year the total attendance for the tournament was around 88 000.  If we assume an average ticket price of $25, it would take about 20% of the $2.2 million in ticket revenues to cover these costs.  So this is definitely in the realm of the doable.

[JamboAl]

4 hours ago, Kingston said:

Obviously very hard as the CSA hasn't figured out how to do it yet and we're in year 16 of this tournament. 

The Rovers said it will cost them $35 000 to host.  There are 13 games in the tournament.  Even if they all cost that much to host (probably many do but probably many are less) it would be $450 k for the whole tournament.  Last year the total attendance for the tournament was around 88 000.  If we assume an average ticket price of $25, it would take about 20% of the $2.2 million in ticket revenues to cover these costs.  So this is definitely in the realm of the doable.

Under this premise, you are assuming that the MLS and CPL teams would be willing to share the revenues with the League 1 teams.  And also that the costs of operating the large stadiums for those teams would also be shared with the League 1 teams.  

[Kingston]

12 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Under this premise, you are assuming that the MLS and CPL teams would be willing to share the revenues with the League 1 teams.  And also that the costs of operating the large stadiums for those teams would also be shared with the League 1 teams.  

Yes, although I wasn't so much proposing that as an actual mechanism as I was doing some quick math to figure out the scope of the problem in comparison with the related resources.

[JamboAl]

5 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Yes, although I wasn't so much proposing that as an actual mechanism as I was doing some quick math to figure out the scope of the problem in comparison with the related resources.

Fair enough.  I think there might be a level of revenue sharing possible but it would require the big boys (and I include the CPL in here) to play ball.  Call me somewhat skeptical at this point.

[Kingston]

26 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Fair enough.  I think there might be a level of revenue sharing possible but it would require the big boys (and I include the CPL in here) to play ball.  Call me somewhat skeptical at this point.

The money would need to (and should) come from the CSA, not from some sort of tax on the pro clubs.  Although to start it would probably be acceptable - even though not actually fair - if the CSA only covered costs for the D3 teams.  

[shermanator]

I don't feel bad for TSS Rovers at all here.

They held multiple fundraising campaigns last year where they sold 49% ownership in the club, raising just under $220,000. One year later, and despite having the ability to opt out of hosting a Voyageurs Cup game, they elect to put their hat in to host, and are already crying poor over the cost to participate in this tournament.

They bet big on getting a rivalry game against Pacific or Vancouver and lost big as they drew Valour at home. 

The reality is that most amateur clubs in this country just don't have the funding to participate in this tournament. It shouldn't be up to the CSA or the pro clubs to bail them out. The gap between League1 Canada and the professional game is even larger off the pitch than it is on the pitch. We have a real problem in this country where we have clubs who talk a big game about what they want to achieve off the pitch, but then cry poor when they realize how much it costs. This is a great example.

I think TSS Rovers have some real good things going for them (best stadium in L1C, good supporters scene for the level, great streams, good results in L1BC), but this was a massive misstep on their part.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

I don't feel bad for TSS Rovers at all here.

They held multiple fundraising campaigns last year where they sold 49% ownership in the club, raising just under $220,000. One year later, and despite having the ability to opt out of hosting a Voyageurs Cup game, they elect to put their hat in to host, and are already crying poor over the cost to participate in this tournament.

They bet big on getting a rivalry game against Pacific or Vancouver and lost big as they drew Valour at home. 

The reality is that most amateur clubs in this country just don't have the funding to participate in this tournament. It shouldn't be up to the CSA or the pro clubs to bail them out. The gap between League1 Canada and the professional game is even larger off the pitch than it is on the pitch. We have a real problem in this country where we have clubs who talk a big game about what they want to achieve off the pitch, but then cry poor when they realize how much it costs. This is a great example.

I think TSS Rovers have some real good things going for them (best stadium in L1C, good supporters scene for the level, great streams, good results in L1BC), but this was a massive misstep on their part.

I think you'd find that in Cup competitions around the world, smaller teams are compensated in many ways, through mechanisms set up by the national FA, to ensure the integrity of the competition.

TV sharing. Guaranteed home matches. Direct grants.

Indeed travel allocations from the respective FA are also very common when a club needs them to compete in a league they've legitimately promoted into.

[red card]

US Open Cup has the same problem. From the Beyond the 90 substack:

 I’ve been told reliably on background, by multiple sources, that with mounting losses, US Soccer cannot afford to put the resources behind the competition that they have in some of the previous editions of the tournament. 

I understand completely the costs involved in the U.S.Open Cup...I even backed Chattanooga FC’s decision in 2019 to skip the competition, given the costs involved and the calendar of the tournament.

In that same period, getting permission to broadcast matches from US Soccer was a first rate ordeal.

The tournament has been a loss leader for years. When I worked in NASL, we sold hosting rights to a game in Minnesota to RSL. This was done, because quite frankly it cost too much to host a midweek game in a rented facility, with only six days to market ticket sales. 

Fast forward to my years at Miami FC. The club had made a run to the Quarterfinals in 2017, but in both 2018 and 2019, hosting matches was costly. 

https://beyondthe90.substack.com/p/us-open-cup-should-be-us-soccer-top

[Cblake]

1 hour ago, red card said:

US Open Cup has the same problem. From the Beyond the 90 substack:

 I’ve been told reliably on background, by multiple sources, that with mounting losses, US Soccer cannot afford to put the resources behind the competition that they have in some of the previous editions of the tournament. 

I understand completely the costs involved in the U.S.Open Cup...I even backed Chattanooga FC’s decision in 2019 to skip the competition, given the costs involved and the calendar of the tournament.

In that same period, getting permission to broadcast matches from US Soccer was a first rate ordeal.

The tournament has been a loss leader for years. When I worked in NASL, we sold hosting rights to a game in Minnesota to RSL. This was done, because quite frankly it cost too much to host a midweek game in a rented facility, with only six days to market ticket sales. 

Fast forward to my years at Miami FC. The club had made a run to the Quarterfinals in 2017, but in both 2018 and 2019, hosting matches was costly. 

https://beyondthe90.substack.com/p/us-open-cup-should-be-us-soccer-top

The one thing they have done with the US Open Cup is making the early rounds very regional, vs teams within the same state or one within driving distances. The opening round is all amateur teams so they have to do that. In they future if they can get the VCup to 16 teams, have four very regional pools, Whitecaps , Pacific VFC, L1BC champs etc. In some cases you might have to simply pair two teams and draw for the home field if both teams want it. It is just the reality that needs to be faced to keep the finances under wraps.