2023 Voyageurs Cup

[Cblake]

3 hours ago, K Edgar said:

https://canpl.ca/article/2023-canchamp-draw-what-you-need-to-know-pots-dates-venue-availability-more

"Halifax Wanderers, Valour FC, Cavalry FC and Vancouver FC would not be able to host in the preliminary round of Canadian Championship play because of stadium availability and weather considerations."

Plus will the two Eastern Canadian even opt to host. Last year Guelph did but Mont-Royal declined to. Not sure about the venues for the two clubs?

[Watchmen]

24 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Plus will the two Eastern Canadian even opt to host. Last year Guelph did but Mont-Royal declined to. Not sure about the venues for the two clubs?

I would think it a club was declining to, that would have been brought up in this article.

[Cblake]

47 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I would think it a club was declining to, that would have been brought up in this article.

That article is about the CPL sides being unable to host, at least in the first round, which is not mentioned in the CSA release. FC Laval's field for instance, Parc Cartier is field turf with football lines on it, not even sure about the capacity, appears to be just a few rows of benches. Wonder what happens if two of the teams whose fields are not available get pitted against each other, what happens? Guess Vancouver FC for instance could go to Swangard if needed?

[Rocket Robin]

I'm sure Vaughan will play at Ontario Soccer Centre which has the infrastructure to broadcast games.  Other L1O teams and Vaughan themselves used it in 2009.  

I can't see them using North Maple Regional Park.  High fencing surrounding fields.  One side beside another soccer field.  

 

[narduch]

Vaughan Azzurri played at the Ontario Soccer Centre when they hosted HFX in 2019

[Kingston]

The article says: "Prior to drawing the matchups, one team from the pot of Eastern professional clubs will be drawn into the Western pot to even the two sides at six clubs apiece for the preliminary round, meaning there will be three opening-round matchups in both regions. Following the draw for preliminary round matches, the home and away positions for the quarter-finals, semi-finals, and final will be drawn to complete the bracket setup."

It isn't explicit, but do we assume the east/west brackets hold all the way to the final?  If so, there could be some interesting match ups along the way, especially depending on which eastern team goes west.

Also, there is a fairly decent chance of Montreal getting drawn against a D3 side for the first ever MLS-D3 match up in the Canadian Championship.

[K Edgar]

51 minutes ago, Kingston said:

The article says: "Prior to drawing the matchups, one team from the pot of Eastern professional clubs will be drawn into the Western pot to even the two sides at six clubs apiece for the preliminary round, meaning there will be three opening-round matchups in both regions. Following the draw for preliminary round matches, the home and away positions for the quarter-finals, semi-finals, and final will be drawn to complete the bracket setup."

It isn't explicit, but do we assume the east/west brackets hold all the way to the final?  If so, there could be some interesting match ups along the way, especially depending on which eastern team goes west.

Also, there is a fairly decent chance of Montreal getting drawn against a D3 side for the first ever MLS-D3 match up in the Canadian Championship.

In the west Vancouver, Cavalry and Valour are all 1st round road teams.  That mean Pacific and Rovers will be home teams along with the eastern team.  HFX is also on the road in the 1st round so they cannot be the team swapped to the west.

[SpursFlu]

Time to freeze or weigh down the ping pong ball. Gotta have the Vancouver fc Rovers game at Swangard 

[Kingston]

3 hours ago, K Edgar said:

In the west Vancouver, Cavalry and Valour are all 1st round road teams.  That mean Pacific and Rovers will be home teams along with the eastern team.  HFX is also on the road in the 1st round so they cannot be the team swapped to the west.

Good points.  I hadn't considered the "no hosting" complication.  If we assume Halifax is taken out of the draw for going west, then:

Montreal has a 1/4 chance of going west.  If they do, they have a 1/3 chance of drawing Rovers.

They have a 3/4 chance of staying east.  If they do, they have a 2/3 chance of drawing one of the D3 teams.

Stats was never my thing, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that gives us something like a 55% chance of a Montreal-D3 matchup?

[Kent]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:43 PM, Cblake said:

Wonder what happens if two of the teams whose fields are not available get pitted against each other, what happens?

Assuming they have their act together, they won't let that happen. Similar to how the World Cup draw worked likely, if you saw that. For example, in the west there will be 3 teams that can't host, and 3 that can. They could draw the first team for Game 1, let's say it's a team that can't host, fine. Then they draw a second team to see who else is in Game 1, but it's another team that can't host, well, they get slotted into Game 2 instead, and then you draw another team for Game 1. If, hypothetically speaking let's say there were only 2 teams that can't host, and 4 that can host or be away, and let's say that the 4 that are not restricted keep getting drawn. By the time you have 2 teams in the Game 1 that could host, and another team in Game 2 that can host, if you draw the 4th team that can host to be in Game 2 also, you put them in Game 3 instead because otherwise you know the two remaining teams can't host, and would both go to Game 3.

It's hard to type it out, but it makes some sense when you see it. I hope that made sense.

[Cblake]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

Assuming they have their act together, they won't let that happen. Similar to how the World Cup draw worked likely, if you saw that. For example, in the west there will be 3 teams that can't host, and 3 that can. They could draw the first team for Game 1, let's say it's a team that can't host, fine. Then they draw a second team to see who else is in Game 1, but it's another team that can't host, well, they get slotted into Game 2 instead, and then you draw another team for Game 1. If, hypothetically speaking let's say there were only 2 teams that can't host, and 4 that can host or be away, and let's say that the 4 that are not restricted keep getting drawn. By the time you have 2 teams in the Game 1 that could host, and another team in Game 2 that can host, if you draw the 4th team that can host to be in Game 2 also, you put them in Game 3 instead because otherwise you know the two remaining teams can't host, and would both go to Game 3.

It's hard to type it out, but it makes some sense when you see it. I hope that made sense.

Or you make two west pots, the 3 teams that can host and the other 3 that can not to make things simple. You pick one team from each pot to make each match. 

[Cblake]

11 hours ago, K Edgar said:

In the west Vancouver, Cavalry and Valour are all 1st round road teams.  That mean Pacific and Rovers will be home teams along with the eastern team.  HFX is also on the road in the 1st round so they cannot be the team swapped to the west.

Does anyone know why Valour can not host?

[Kent]

7 hours ago, Kingston said:

Good points.  I hadn't considered the "no hosting" complication.  If we assume Halifax is taken out of the draw for going west, then:

Montreal has a 1/4 chance of going west.  If they do, they have a 1/3 chance of drawing Rovers.

They have a 3/4 chance of staying east.  If they do, they have a 2/3 chance of drawing one of the D3 teams.

Stats was never my thing, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that gives us something like a 55% chance of a Montreal-D3 matchup?

If Montreal goes west, they can't draw Rovers in the first round, because they would both have to be home teams since none of Valour, Cavalry, or Vancouver FC can host.

If they stay in the east, and we assume the semi pro teams are put back into the same pot as the pro teams (so the 2 semi pro teams could be drawn against each other) that would give Montreal a 2/5 chance of drawing a D3 team. 2/5 * 3/4 = 30%

If the D3 teams are kept in a separate pot to ensure they are drawn with a pro team Montreal has a 2/3 chance of drawing a D3 team, combined with the 3/4 chance of staying in the east in the first place makes it 50%.

So either a 30% or a 50% chance of Montreal facing a D3 team in the first round, depending on how they do the draw.

 

[Kent]

8 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Or you make two west pots, the 3 teams that can host and the other 3 that can not to make things simple. You pick one team from each pot to make each match. 

That's what I thought at first, but since they went through the effort of mentioning all the pots, even the pro and D3 pots in the East, I thought maybe they would do it how the World Cup did it rather than putting home and away pots in the West.

[Kent]

7 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Does anyone know why Valour can not host?

My assumption is that they are falling under the "weather considerations" side of things. Which makes you wonder if they are just planning on never hosting a first round game.

I was wondering about Cavalry. Are they doing some sort of renos on their stadium or would they be out for "weather considerations" as well?

[Cblake]

12 hours ago, Kent said:

My assumption is that they are falling under the "weather considerations" side of things. Which makes you wonder if they are just planning on never hosting a first round game.

I was wondering about Cavalry. Are they doing some sort of renos on their stadium or would they be out for "weather considerations" as well?

Tim Horton's Field hosted the World Cup qualifier last January, using weather as an excuse to not host ... Is there a bubble on the field, wonder if that is the reason, since the facility is also used by the University of Manitoba. 

[Bison44]

HAHA, Jan weather in Hamilton is roughly start of April in Winnipeg, but yeah its no excuse, must be something else.  

[Kent]

I forgot to mention Wanderers as well. Are they doing renovations? I know it was meant to be a temporary stadium, do they do a tear down and build up every year?

[JamboAl]

21 hours ago, Kent said:

I forgot to mention Wanderers as well. Are they doing renovations? I know it was meant to be a temporary stadium, do they do a tear down and build up every year?

I can only think that the grass surface won’t be ready by mid April.  

[The Ref]

Will we have a Voyageurs Cup for the women once the Canadian League announced by Matheson-Sinclair commences in 2015?

[phil03]

20 hours ago, The Ref said:

Will we have a Voyageurs Cup for the women once the Canadian League announced by Matheson-Sinclair commences in 2015?

Honestly, I wouldn't really see the rationale for it except imitating European clubs for the sake of it and giving some small exposure to semi-pro clubs.

The Voyageurs Cup mostly became a thing because a) the Canadian clubs were not all playing in the same league and still won't do for the foreseeable future so it made sense to have a tournament to decide who is the true Canadian champion and b) as a result of a) you'd also want a method to decide who was the most deserving of the, as of this year, only Canadian place in CCL. Now it also makes sense to give at least one place through it (I'd prefer two) to balance the need of developing the CPL with the benefits of maximizing your chances to have a Canadian club making a run in it. 

Now, please anyone correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe there are any women's professional teams in existence in Canada right now and the women's CONCACAF champions league is only gonna get going this year (and who is the representative for Canada can be just determined by the ranking in the new Canadian league). As a result the rationale for the men's Voyageurs Cup is just not there for the women IMO.

Edited January 29, 2023 by phil03

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I wouldn't really see the rationale for it except imitating European clubs for the sake of it and giving some small exposure to semi-pro clubs.

The Voyageurs Cup mostly became a thing because a) the Canadian clubs were not all playing in the same league and still won't do for the foreseeable future so it made sense to have a tournament to decide who is the true Canadian champion and b) as a result of a) you'd also want a method to decide who was the most deserving of the, as of this year, only Canadian place in CCL. Now it also makes sense to give at least one place through it (I'd prefer two) to balance the need of developing the CPL with the benefits of maximizing your chances to have a Canadian club making a run in it. 

Now, please anyone correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe there are any women's professional teams in existence in Canada right now and the women's CONCACAF champions league is only gonna get going this year (and who is the representative for Canada can be just determined by the ranking in the new Canadian league). As a result the rationale for the men's Voyageurs Cup is just not there for the women IMO.

This is wrong. When the Voyageurs' Cup was started, all of the Canadian pro clubs were playing in the same league. It was a larger, American league, though.

[phil03]

41 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

This is wrong. When the Voyageurs' Cup was started, all of the Canadian pro clubs were playing in the same league. It was a larger, American league, though.

That depend if you mean the actual trophy being given or it being an actual separate tournament (aka the Canadian Championship). Until TFC became a thing the Voyageurs Cup was just a trophy given to whoever got the most points out of intra-Canadians team in the USL, kinda like the Cascadia Cup is in the MLS right now for teams from that area. There was also no places in continental Soccer attached to it.

It was only in 2008 that it became a tournament of its own, to reflect TFC's entry into the MLS, and that the winner got a place in the CCL.

(Incidently its probably the Impact causing an upset and TFC seeing the place in CCL they already thought was theirs fade in front of their eyes that started the rivalry IMO...)

Edited January 29, 2023 by phil03

[Kingston]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:46 PM, Kent said:

If Montreal goes west, they can't draw Rovers in the first round, because they would both have to be home teams since none of Valour, Cavalry, or Vancouver FC can host.

If they stay in the east, and we assume the semi pro teams are put back into the same pot as the pro teams (so the 2 semi pro teams could be drawn against each other) that would give Montreal a 2/5 chance of drawing a D3 team. 2/5 * 3/4 = 30%

If the D3 teams are kept in a separate pot to ensure they are drawn with a pro team Montreal has a 2/3 chance of drawing a D3 team, combined with the 3/4 chance of staying in the east in the first place makes it 50%.

So either a 30% or a 50% chance of Montreal facing a D3 team in the first round, depending on how they do the draw.

 

I forgot about the hosting thing that prevents Montreal from facing Rovers in round one.

It's 50% then, because the two eastern D3 teams are in a special pot to ensure they face a pro team in round one.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

I forgot about the hosting thing that prevents Montreal from facing Rovers in round one.

It's 50% then, because the two eastern D3 teams are in a special pot to ensure they face a pro team in round one.

That was my assumption, but it wasn't explicitly said in the article on canpl.ca that I had read. It looked like that could be the purpose of the semi pro pot, but also that the semi pro pot could just be to avoid making them travel to the west bracket.

I just read an article from the CSA (link below) and it says...

"The draw will begin by finalizing the pots – an Eastern Club will be drawn into the Western Club pot. With 6 teams in East Pot (Eastern Clubs + East Semi-Pro Clubs) and 6 teams in the West Pot"

So the semi pro pot will in fact be combined with the pro teams into one East pot.

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-soccer-announces-details-for-the-2023-canadian-championship-draw/