2023 Voyageurs Cup

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think they have a few dates open but it is still very congested. 

Right. The same congested schedule other MLS teams will be dealing with in the US. That's fine. Nothing stopped the CSA from selecting those dates except the CSA.

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Right. The same congested schedule other MLS teams will be dealing with in the US. That's fine. Nothing stopped the CSA from selecting those dates except the CSA.

You really believe the CSA made this decision in a vacuum and weren't trying to appease the 3 MLS teams?

[narduch]

23 minutes ago, Kingston said:

First, they do have time.  (Even if they don't start in the spring and end in the fall, which would also work.)  Instead of starting in early April and ending in early June, they could start in mid-May and end in mid-July.  It's literally just shifting everything back by five or six weeks.

Second, why is this "appeasing" the MLS clubs?  You have a link where the CSA says they started the tournament early at the request of the MLS clubs?  You believe the CSA ended the V-Cup a full six weeks before the Leagues Cup just to be extra, extra sure there was no overlap between the V-Cup and the Leagues Cup?  The CSA is quite capable of making bad decisions without even considering the Canadian MLS teams.

Ok. Now you're just being obtuse at this point 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

You really believe the CSA made this decision in a vacuum and weren't trying to appease the 3 MLS teams?

I legitimately believe the CSA is not organized enough to look at the MLS schedule and see the open dates or realize that they didn't have to crown the Cup champion by the end of August.

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I legitimately believe the CSA is not organized enough to look at the MLS schedule and see the open dates or realize that they didn't have to crown the Cup champion by the end of August.

Personally think they are easily influenced. The MLS push and they bend over.

[Watchmen]

55 minutes ago, narduch said:

Personally think they are easily influenced. The MLS push and they bend over.

I don't think we're as far apart here as it seems. I think it's definitely a case of MLS asking and the CSA didn't bother to fight back/investigate/do anything. I blame that on the CSA more than any kind of "major influence" by MLS.

[Cblake]

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

The CSA couldn't split the V Cup in half like the USSF did while juggling 10 times less clubs?

Please🙄

The opening round of the U.S. Open Cup has presented all sorts of issues for some of the teams as the tournament has grown, mostly the USL2/NPSL teams that mostly draw on the college ranks for their talent. A lot of those players are simply not available at that time of year and as a result those type of teams have pulled out. The USASA type teams tend to skew a little older, have post college types on their teams. Imagine if the VCup had VMSL, OSL type teams in it, more of these issues would come up, but their are solutions and they can be put in place, it just takes someone with a little vision to do it. Could have played these dates and the final in September or something. 

Round of 32	TBD	May 9–10, 2023	24 winners from Third Round 8 Seeded MLS teams	100
Round of 16	TBD	May 23–24, 2023	16 winners from Round of 32
Quarterfinals		June 6, 2023	8 winners from Round of 16

 

[Kingston]

18 hours ago, narduch said:

Ok. Now you're just being obtuse at this point 

You haven't actually responded to any of the points I raised, but I'm being obtuse?

Look, I'm not wanting to protract this debate, so I'll sum up and leave you the last word if you want.

a)  In this specific case, there's no reason to think anything is at play here other than the CSA messing up.  To quote Hanlon, "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

b)  Bigger picture, what do you hate so much about the Canadian MLS teams?  Most of us here are delighted to have the D3, CPL, and MLS teams and wish them all well.  You, however, seem to think the MLS teams are somehow evil and appear to believe that every CSA decision is somehow an appeasement or submission or bending over or something else negative to the MLS teams.  In reality, the MLS teams are the largest, most successful club teams we've ever had.  The least of them has a higher dollar value than all other Canadian club soccer put together.  They are an important part of our talent pipeline and were home clubs to, what, at least a third of our recent World Cup team?  I'm sure the CSA considers our amateur, D3, CPL, and MLS teams in their decisions, which they should.  Personally I, and I believe many others, have favourite D3, CPL, and Canadian MLS teams and cheer for them all.  I don't get why you prefer to hate the MLS teams instead.

[Kent]

Allow me to speculate more optimistically.

Maybe the reason the CSA is avoiding overlap with Nations League and the Gold Cup isn't to appease MLS teams that would be missing national team players. Maybe it's because they are trying to host games for those competitions.

The theory that MLS asked to not have games at those times, as well as the Leagues Cup and the CSA just listened to them is still the most likely scenario. Whether you attribute that to malice (I don't know that anybody is) or stupidity is up to you.

Not splitting the competition could be a matter of not thinking of that option, or it could be a matter of not liking having a 2.5 month break. Remember when people complained about MLS playoffs having a 2 week break due to an international window?

[narduch]

 

[Cblake]

19 hours ago, narduch said:

 

With HFX selling a package like this, there is no way this game is getting moved back to Ottawa. I really do wonder what the issue was that Ottawa described with them not hosting home games? Anyone understand. 

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, Cblake said:

With HFX selling a package like this, there is no way this game is getting moved back to Ottawa. I really do wonder what the issue was that Ottawa described with them not hosting home games? Anyone understand. 

Apparently Ottawa screwed up a document they sent to the CSA. 

But why wouldn't they allow them to correct it?

[Cblake]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Apparently Ottawa screwed up a document they sent to the CSA. 

But why wouldn't they allow them to correct it?

Especially after they already knew HFX was not going to be able to host in the first round. What also jumps out is HFX is already in Ottawa for their league opener four days earlier. This makes no sense at all. 

Now two fan bases are facing a trek to Toronto for a 5 pm kickoff on a Wednesday because of this situation. As a Toronto native I am looking forward to a VCup double header but feel for the Ottawa fans due to this very correctable technicality. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Cblake

[Kingston]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:27 PM, Cblake said:

With HFX selling a package like this, there is no way this game is getting moved back to Ottawa. I really do wonder what the issue was that Ottawa described with them not hosting home games? Anyone understand. 

The TD Place events schedule lists a Chris de Burgh concert for April 19.  So maybe the venue is already booked?  Although that events schedule doesn't seem to differentiate between the stadium and the arena and I'd have to think the concert is actually in the arena.

[SpursFlu]

Bring your bouncy castles and hot tubs

[Watchmen]

A bit of insight in to hosting Voyageurs Cup games:

 

[Kingston]

I'm glad there are D3 teams that are willing to take this on but the cost of hosting will need to be addressed before the tournament can expand D3 participation.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

I'm glad there are D3 teams that are willing to take this on but the cost of hosting will need to be addressed before the tournament can expand D3 participation.

They really should be using some of that sweet CSB money to offset this.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, narduch said:

They really should be using some of that sweet CSB money to offset this.

In Spain they automatically do the early rounds with higher teams traveling to lower tiers. Single match, higher tension, good gates, no excessive costs for the hosts.

If and when teams are the same tier, open draw entirely.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In Spain they automatically do the early rounds with higher teams traveling to lower tiers. Single match, higher tension, good gates, no excessive costs for the hosts.

I think the point is that the D3 teams have trouble shouldering the hosting costs as is, though.  Even bringing in 1000 fans, which is an absolutely massive crowd for most of them, doesn't necessarily offset the costs.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:04 PM, Kingston said:

I think the point is that the D3 teams have trouble shouldering the hosting costs as is, though.  Even bringing in 1000 fans, which is an absolutely massive crowd for most of them, doesn't necessarily offset the costs.

I guess I under appreciate this. If the infrastructure and staff is so thin, and the stadium has no capacity, they can't profit from a visit of a higher tier team. It is logistically easier to play away, just travel costs. But still, you'd think they'd make the effort.

The Canadian Championship should really have a better tv deal and sponsors, to help cover all this, so a L1 team could host properly, with a decent gate, fans have a helluva time, you sell merch. I only went to the L1BC final last summer, at Swangard, and it was a really top atmosphere, a great ambience. TSS Rovers is a well run team in all respects and I suspect their home match this time around is also going to be great.

[Kingston]

34 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The Canadian Championship should really have a better tv deal and sponsors, to help cover all this, so a L1 team could host properly, with a decent gate, fans have a helluva time, you sell merch. I only went to the L1BC final last summer, at Swangard, and it was a really top atmosphere, a great ambience. TSS Rovers is a well run team in all respects and I suspect their home match this time around is also going to be great.

I've been to a small number of L1O matches.  They can be quite fun.  As Rocket Robin's reports tell us, though, most of them draw between 50 and 200 fans.  My hope is that, as L1O introduces tiers, we'll see routinely bigger crowds for the top tier teams.  If they can make it up to 1000 fans on normal days they should be able to draw 2000 or more for a big Canadian Championship match and not kill themselves financially.

But, yes, it would be great if the Canadian Championship had some sort of hosting/travel money for the D3 teams.

[Unnamed Trialist]

13 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I've been to a small number of L1O matches.  They can be quite fun.  As Rocket Robin's reports tell us, though, most of them draw between 50 and 200 fans.  My hope is that, as L1O introduces tiers, we'll see routinely bigger crowds for the top tier teams.  If they can make it up to 1000 fans on normal days they should be able to draw 2000 or more for a big Canadian Championship match and not kill themselves financially.

But, yes, it would be great if the Canadian Championship had some sort of hosting/travel money for the D3 teams.

I could be wrong, but most, a majority of national federations running a Cup competition, help the lower level teams cover travel costs if they have to play away in the competition system set up by the national FA. Or else there is a tv deal they partake in, or sponsorship. 

I was actually quite shocked to learn, in a conversation with the L1 president last summer, that L1 teams receive no such support if they have to travel away for the Canadian Championship.

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I could be wrong, but most, a majority of national federations running a Cup competition, help the lower level teams cover travel costs if they have to play away in the competition system set up by the national FA. Or else there is a tv deal they partake in, or sponsorship. 

I was actually quite shocked to learn, in a conversation with the L1 president last summer, that L1 teams receive no such support if they have to travel away for the Canadian Championship.

Technically there is a TV deal, as this is included with OneSoccer.  So the money for L1 from it should be coming from CSB.

I'm not surprised the L1s aren't receiving anything, but only because we've seen some L1O/ PLSQ clubs decline the Cup spot for financial reasons.

[Watchmen]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I guess I under appreciate this. If the infrastructure and staff is so thin, and the stadium has no capacity, they can't profit from a visit of a higher tier team. It is logistically easier to play away, just travel costs. But still, you'd think they'd make the effort.

The Canadian Championship should really have a better tv deal and sponsors, to help cover all this, so a L1 team could host properly, with a decent gate, fans have a helluva time, you sell merch. I only went to the L1BC final last summer, at Swangard, and it was a really top atmosphere, a great ambience. TSS Rovers is a well run team in all respects and I suspect their home match this time around is also going to be great.

I think the TSS vs Valour game is going to have a really strong attendance as well.  It's the best supported club in L1 to start with, playing at a stadium every soccer fan in the lower mainland loves to attend games at, and the Whitecaps have the bye that round so there's no conflict.