The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[red card]

Beckie should be happy with this WWC23 news from FIFA:

FIFA (will be) paying for a 50-person delegation for each team (up from 35 at the 2019 women's tournament), as well as providing business-class travel and single hotel rooms for the players.

This will also be the first World Cup where the women's teams have dedicated training bases.

 

But it looks like the Canadian players aren't following the recommendations of FIFPro in terms of splitting prize money (and again shows the player asks were more outliers than in line):

FIFPro has asked FIFA to secure a "global guarantee of at least 30% of prize money'' that is paid to players.

The 30% threshold was chosen, he (FIFPro general secretary) said, after analysis of current agreements around the world. A few countries have higher thresholds, with Australia at 40% and the U.S. at 90% (moving down to 80%).

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/players-union-says-fifa-moving-212008315.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, red card said:

....But it looks like the Canadian players aren't following the recommendations of FIFPro in terms of splitting prize money (and again shows the player asks were more outliers than in line):

FIFPro has asked FIFA to secure a "global guarantee of at least 30% of prize money'' that is paid to players...

Think you have failed to grasp what is implied by the bolded words.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, red card said:

Beckie should be happy with this WWC23 news from FIFA:

FIFA (will be) paying for a 50-person delegation for each team (up from 35 at the 2019 women's tournament), as well as providing business-class travel and single hotel rooms for the players.

This will also be the first World Cup where the women's teams have dedicated training bases.

 

But it looks like the Canadian players aren't following the recommendations of FIFPro in terms of splitting prize money (and again shows the player asks were more outliers than in line):

FIFPro has asked FIFA to secure a "global guarantee of at least 30% of prize money'' that is paid to players.

The 30% threshold was chosen, he (FIFPro general secretary) said, after analysis of current agreements around the world. A few countries have higher thresholds, with Australia at 40% and the U.S. at 90% (moving down to 80%).

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/players-union-says-fifa-moving-212008315.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr

But she still misses out on the prize money, over 100k, which won't matter because she insists that it doesn't exist.

[An Observer]

4 hours ago, red card said:

Beckie should be happy with this WWC23 news from FIFA:

FIFA (will be) paying for a 50-person delegation for each team (up from 35 at the 2019 women's tournament), as well as providing business-class travel and single hotel rooms for the players.

This will also be the first World Cup where the women's teams have dedicated training bases.

 

But it looks like the Canadian players aren't following the recommendations of FIFPro in terms of splitting prize money (and again shows the player asks were more outliers than in line):

FIFPro has asked FIFA to secure a "global guarantee of at least 30% of prize money'' that is paid to players.

The 30% threshold was chosen, he (FIFPro general secretary) said, after analysis of current agreements around the world. A few countries have higher thresholds, with Australia at 40% and the U.S. at 90% (moving down to 80%).

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/players-union-says-fifa-moving-212008315.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr

80 just seems way too high for me.  It seems like the men and women support sharing revenues with each other only on the basis that they are getting more % wise (at least in the men’s case) than they would in almost any other association. They get the 40% from the men’s World Cup which is already high and then add in the similar % from the women’s World Cup which pushes it even higher.   The women get the same deal (even if revenues at the respective world cups are vastly different) on I guess the basis of equal pay for equal work in spite of the fact that they wouldn’t get the same situation at their club where that would equally apply (imagine ManU paying their women the same as the men in spite of the vast differences in revenue each of the sides generate) or the fact that players themselves earn vastly different amounts from each other player for the same work depending on their ability (ie imagine Johnston arguing he should be paid the same as Davies as he works just as hard).
 

Honestly, I just find the whole rationale crazy and it means they really are robbing from the development of the next generation to enrich themselves all wrapped in the equality blanket. It seems that Generation Y and millennials have no issue in borrowing from the boomers playbook when given the opportunity. I guess in that sense good on them. 

Maybe one day we will see NHL and NBA players argue to share revenue equally with their female brethren by asking for 80 to 90% of the revenue from the league.  

Edited March 25, 2023 by An Observer

[CanadaFan123]

The rationale is crazy and Nick Bontis was/is right … it’s untenable. I’ve said this previously but under this same rationale one could argue that the Parasoccer team should also be compensated equally as the merits would be identical. 

Women’s football compensation should rise organically as it has been. This whole equal sharing idea is only going to harm the women’s game. Imagine this scenario: our women’s team could miss the World Cup and still be compensated more than the women’s World Cup winners through our men’s prize money. That is equitable? Let’s call it what it is - greed.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

This has made the CSB deal untenable from the CSA's standpoint (hence the histrionics from Nick Bontis last year) because now they need to find more than the $3 million (plus small annual increments) they are receiving as part of the terms that appear to have been necessary to get investors to sign on the dotted line for Victor Montagliani's pet legacy project. Not factoring in what was soon going to be emerging over the horizon on national team player remuneration is kind of why it wasn't a good idea to sign off on a fixed set of terms potentially all the way out to 2037.

[Bison44]

What a guy this parrot is, what a proud CPL fan, its not what we all wanted, what we all hoped would happen one day, what we are all trying to support in our own way... our own national soccer league.....but the CPL is "Victor Montagliani's pet legacy project".   Just keep this in mind the next time he goes on one of his "i've been insulted and ridiculed for my opinions" whoah is me pity parties.  

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

What a guy this parrot is, what a proud CPL fan, its not what we all wanted, what we all hoped would happen one day, what we are all trying to support in our own way... our own national soccer league.....but the CPL is "Victor Montagliani's pet legacy project".   Just keep this in mind the next time he goes on one of his "i've been insulted and ridiculed for my opinions" whoah is me pity parties.  

I remember when he just used to troll the CPL section.  Was still sad, but at least the reach was limited.  

[Aird25]

The CSB deal has no bearing on prize money distribution afaik so it’s just another needless shot in his relentless spin of anything CPL related 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^clearly doesn't understand why the provincial associations ultimately decided Nick Bontis had to go after he proposed the $11 player registration fee increase.

The numbers no longer crunch properly if national team players are receiving a huge portion of the prize money and there needs to be equity between the two programs, because the fixed payment (with small annual increments) from CSB doesn't cover the massively increased expenses incurred in years when teams go to a World Cup finals tournament.

The players ultimately took money the CSA assumed would be coming their way when the CSB deal was signed meaning the CSA can no longer afford Victor Montagliani's act of generosity on handing over excess sponsorship revenues in future World Cup finals years to get CanPL off the ground back in 2018. That's why player registration fees have to go up to balance the books.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

^^^ The CSA assumed in 2018 the men would get to the WC in 2022 and 10 mil would be coming their way???  How can you type that BS with a straight face??  Even in 2020, only the most positive of V's thought we would get to WC22.  

And did the hearings not put to bed this idea that the CSB deal was some sort of giveaway by CSA??  At their best, the highest earning year, CSB made 8mil from sponsors/tv rights that were shared with the CPL ( some of the deals were for both ie Carlsberg), they paid CSA 3+mil and had to cover any expenses needed to raise that 8mil.  And we know that CSA was making 1or 2mil before so getting the steady 3+mil a year and not having to work for it was a positive deal for CSA, other than the high water mark on a WC year.    

[red card]

8 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

The rationale is crazy and Nick Bontis was/is right … it’s untenable. I’ve said this previously but under this same rationale one could argue that the Parasoccer team should also be compensated equally as the merits would be identical. 

 

Alexai Lalas shared a similar view in a recent State of the Union podcast.

He asked where does equal & equitable pay stop. There is an element of hypocrisy. USSF is more than senior women & men national teams. There is youth soccer, beach soccer, deaf soccer, futsal, para soccer... These are all men and women playing at the highest level and representing the US.

Yet he never hears the US senior men & women say these players should also be treated equally & equitably. If they don't believe players on so-called extended national teams do the same job, then they should say it publicly. He wants to hear their rationale such as because they don't face the same challenges, they don't need the same amount of resources or they're less popular, 

It's not being a devil's advocate but he sees it as a potential scenario going forward. If it is about putting your hand over your heart in what he feels is the greatest country in the world, then there are a lot of national teams not getting equal & equitable treatment relative to the two senior teams.

The senior women position themselves as underdogs relative to the men but they're in position of power relative to all the other US men & women teams. This is about getting yours. It has always been about money. That's not a bad thing. He just recognizes it for exactly what it is. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by red card

[CanadaFan123]

Make no mistake, the men’s teams don’t truly care about equity - they just play along because they have to. Both sides are fighting over the same bone but know that it’s better to get the biggest chunk possible out of the CSA’s mouth first. In that regard, their interests are aligned. 
 

The women’s idea of equality is based around what they’ve been told and believed their entire lives “you’re better than the men”. For whatever reason female sports always have to be draped in some fallacy that they can take on the men. It’s never enough to just be the best for your gender. That’s why this whole intermingling of funds is a dead end and needs to stop asap. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 hours ago, red card said:

...There is youth soccer, beach soccer, deaf soccer, futsal, para soccer...This is about getting yours. It has always been about money...

Red herring on the first part and no shit Sherlock on the second part. Who really generates the prize money and sponsorships out on the field of play if it isn't the players?

In years past, the best available CMNT players like Tomasz Radzinski often avoided national team call ups. Make it more financially worthwhile so that it doesn't get viewed as a potentially career impeding chore and there's a much better chance of getting all the best players to show up consistently and swaying the eligibility decisions of dual nationals like Stefan Mitrovic.

The CSA should be doing all they can to try to maximize payments to the CMNT and CWNT rosters in other words because professional athletes are involved and money is inherently what drives their interest in finding time for national team games alongside their club careers. Instead we had Victor Montagliani and Nick Bontis prioritizing an agenda related to their own soccer league sanctioning politics obsessions by signing over up to twenty years worth of future national team revenues to CSB. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Red herring on the first part and no shit Sherlock on the second part. Who really generates the prize money and sponsorships out on the field of play if it isn't the players?

In years past, the best available CMNT players like Tomasz Radzinski often avoided national team call ups. Make it more financially worthwhile so that it doesn't get viewed as a potentially career impeding chore and there's a much better chance of getting all the best players to show up consistently and swaying the eligibility decisions of dual nationals like Stefan Mitrovic.

The CSA should be doing all they can to try to maximize payments to the CMNT and CWNT rosters in other words because professional athletes are involved and money is inherently what drives their interest in finding time for national team games alongside their club careers. Instead we had Victor Montagliani and Nick Bontis prioritizing an agenda related to their own soccer league sanctioning politics obsessions by signing over up to twenty years worth of future national team revenues to CSB. 

You actually make a couple good points here in your first two paragraphs, until you go back to your own agenda in the third.  Great for the players to get their money now spirited by the generation of men's players we have.  But how exactly is that sustainable when there are no proper development pathways to continue the success we are currently having?  And please don't use the Easton report and bus leagues as an argument for proper development.

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

In years past, the best available CMNT players like Tomasz Radzinski often avoided national team call ups.

In reviewing the NL match on TSN's TFC pregame show, Kilbane made a point of noting that all our best players were available for this window, because he certainly had experience with Radz at Everton.

Edited March 26, 2023 by BearcatSA

[VinceA]

Richard Scott leaving his position after 16 years. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

... But how exactly is that sustainable when there are no proper development pathways to continue the success we are currently having? ...

^^^I find it hard to take this guy seriously after some of his recent posts so try to avoid engaging him in conversation now. This latest post is so bizarre that I initially wondered whether it was a joke but eventually concluded that he is actually being serious with this.

Over the past decade or so, vast amounts of money have been spent on elite youth player development in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal by the three Canadian MLS teams. All three of these clubs are directly affiliated to the CSA and are hence an integral part of Canadian soccer.

Those three youth academies played a huge role in deepening and strengthening the player pool in a manner that facilitated qualification in 2022. In a 48 team World Cup environment with six rather than three automatic CONCACAF qualifiers there is every reason to think that is going to be sustainable moving forward.

The presence of high media profile D1 soccer in Canada from 2007 onwards in the shape of MLS has no doubt helped inspire many more players to hang in there with our sport who would previously have drifted away by their mid-teens even if they were not on one of the three academy rosters.

The CSB deal that was signed in 2018 is not helping to fund any additional youth academies in the other major cities and the rosters of CanPL teams have been stocked to a very significant extent by MLS academy products who didn't quite make the grade in MLS terms and probably never will and by low quality imports from other countries. Any benefit to the performance of the CMNT program from having significant revenue streams flow in this direction from it is marginal at best and likely to continue to be so.

On the women's side, the CSB deal is not helping to fund a women's pro league so having the CWNT program included in this deal as well is completely bizarre and a glaring gender equity issue. As things stand this arrangement appears to now be severely damaging CSA finances, while the high profile negative backlash of both national team rosters towards it is severely limiting CSB's ability to make a financial killing out of it even in 2026.

Nobody appears to be benefiting from this fiasco in other words and something has to give or this issue could continue to fester all the way out to 2037. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

Remind me again, who is working/helping to get a cross canada network of L10 type leagues going to help player development??  Was it MLS or CPL??  What is MLS doing to get a womens team in canada??? How many national team members had the MLS teams developed in their first 3-4 years??  Hmmm, very selective and blinkered critiques to CSA/CSB/CPL.  Shit on our league, but praise MLS endlessly, you never compare apples to apples.  Then whine about other peoples who have so called crusadaes against MLS.  The MLS teams/acadmies have done wonders (could do better) so in your opinion we should shut down any attempts to further soccer in canada unless it involves low ambition, low money, semi-pro bus leagues under the american umbrella. 

Why not let the MLS teams do their thing and we'll all be grateful for it, but that doesnt for one moment we cant have a CPL as well, there is only so many spots for kids at those MLS systems.  And we know damn well from the talent that gets ignored by them and takes alternate routes (NCAA) that they are not catching even a fraction of the talent thats coming out of just Brampton!!  Let alone the prairies, maratimes or any other region that is never getting an MLS club/interest.  And if the players are angry with CSA, now that some more info has come out it doesnt look like its the CSB deal that is causing any shortage of cash, in fact that deal helped finance the last 2-3 years where both programs have taken off if you arent looking at it with a fervently anti CPL glasses on.    If the players want more money, more compensation, better travel and accomidation, equality payments etc, thats got nothing to do with the CSB deal and would have happened anyways, and I doubt the CSA guys would have managed things any better and would have put any more money in their coffers than they got from CSB.  

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Remind me again, who is working/helping to get a cross canada network of L10 type leagues going to help player development??  Was it MLS or CPL??  What is MLS doing to get a womens team in canada??? How many national team members had the MLS teams developed in their first 3-4 years??  Hmmm, very selective and blinkered critiques to CSA/CSB/CPL.  Shit on our league, but praise MLS endlessly, you never compare apples to apples.  Then whine about other peoples who have so called crusadaes against MLS.  The MLS teams/acadmies have done wonders (could do better) so in your opinion we should shut down any attempts to further soccer in canada unless it involves low ambition, low money, semi-pro bus leagues under the american umbrella. 

Why not let the MLS teams do their thing and we'll all be grateful for it, but that doesnt for one moment we cant have a CPL as well, there is only so many spots for kids at those MLS systems.  And we know damn well from the talent that gets ignored by them and takes alternate routes (NCAA) that they are not catching even a fraction of the talent thats coming out of just Brampton!!  Let alone the prairies, maratimes or any other region that is never getting an MLS club/interest.  And if the players are angry with CSA, now that some more info has come out it doesnt look like its the CSB deal that is causing any shortage of cash, in fact that deal helped finance the last 2-3 years where both programs have taken off if you arent looking at it with a fervently anti CPL glasses on.    If the players want more money, more compensation, better travel and accomidation, equality payments etc, thats got nothing to do with the CSB deal and would have happened anyways, and I doubt the CSA guys would have managed things any better and would have put any more money in their coffers than they got from CSB.  

But… Easton report.

[Gian-Luca]

Radzinski left the team during WCQ in 1997 because he hated Lenarduzzi due to the unprofessional way he was being treated by him. He said he would never have come back if Lenarduzzi had still been the coach. Not sure what this really has to do with the current dispute which at the time of writing, which given the lack of job action or protests by the men’s team last night, presently is mostly being driven by ardent feminists on the women’s team, but still important to get the facts straight. 

[Bison44]

Its his typical bad faith argument.  Pull up a players beef with coaching staff from 20 years ago, shoe horn it into whatever anti CPL argument he is making today and hope no one notices and calls him on it.  He didnt say 2 words about gender equality until he realized the women were pissed at CPL because someone gave them the impression that they were "siphoning" money from the womens program.  So now he is all about questioning why CSB hasnt started a womens league at the same time calling the mens league a pointless vanity project.  

[Ottawafan]

8 hours ago, Ivan said:

You actually make a couple good points here in your first two paragraphs, until you go back to your own agenda in the third.  Great for the players to get their money now spirited by the generation of men's players we have.  But how exactly is that sustainable when there are no proper development pathways to continue the success we are currently having?  And please don't use the Easton report and bus leagues as an argument for proper development.

It isn’t the responsibility of the various associations to develop players. That’s the role of clubs, their technical directors and the coaches. CSA and provincial associations should not take on any development. Having worked with coaches from around the world they are blown away by OSA and CSA attempting to have control in this area. 

[Ottawafan]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^I find it hard to take this guy seriously after some of his recent posts so try to avoid engaging him in conversation now. This latest post is so bizarre that I initially wondered whether it was a joke but eventually concluded that he is actually being serious with this.

Over the past decade or so, vast amounts of money have been spent on elite youth player development in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal by the three Canadian MLS teams. All three of these clubs are directly affiliated to the CSA and are hence an integral part of Canadian soccer.

Those three youth academies played a huge role in deepening and strengthening the player pool in a manner that facilitated qualification in 2022. In a 48 team World Cup environment with six rather than three automatic CONCACAF qualifiers there is every reason to think that is going to be sustainable moving forward.

The presence of high media profile D1 soccer in Canada from 2007 onwards in the shape of MLS has no doubt helped inspire many more players to hang in there with our sport who would previously have drifted away by their mid-teens even if they were not on one of the three academy rosters.

The CSB deal that was signed in 2018 is not helping to fund any additional youth academies in the other major cities and the rosters of CanPL teams have been stocked to a very significant extent by MLS academy products who didn't quite make the grade in MLS terms and probably never will and by low quality imports from other countries. Any benefit to the performance of the CMNT program from having significant revenue streams flow in this direction from it is marginal at best and likely to continue to be so.

On the women's side, the CSB deal is not helping to fund a women's pro league so having the CWNT program included in this deal as well is completely bizarre and a glaring gender equity issue. As things stand this arrangement appears to now be severely damaging CSA finances, while the high profile negative backlash of both national team rosters towards it is severely limiting CSB's ability to make a financial killing out of it even in 2026.

Nobody appears to be benefiting from this fiasco in other words and something has to give or this issue could continue to fester all the way out to 2037. 

I agree with most of your points. CPL has at this point zero role in youth development sides. Ok so some of them have affiliations with local clubs but to those implying that qualifies as youth programs, those are the posters that have never been involved at high level soccer and coaching. If a CPL squad is involved with a local club, it’s a camp designed to generate them $$$, hopefully get the brand out there ( sell tickets ) and keep the peace with the local soccer community. One day they need to get there tho. But right now the CPL is giving the 18-22 year old that isn’t getting a ride a chance to play and further their skills. 

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

It isn’t the responsibility of the various associations to develop players. That’s the role of clubs, their technical directors and the coaches. CSA and provincial associations should not take on any development. Having worked with coaches from around the world they are blown away by OSA and CSA attempting to have control in this area. 

I suspect that works better in countries with huge established footy pyramids.  It is a lot easier to say that the FA isn’t expected to develop players because the English pro landscape is completely fleshed out and filling that niche. They are flush with developmental capacity.  Here though, until recently there were only 3 pro teams.   In those conditions, it seems like it could very much be the job of the Association to facilitate the development of additional clubs to further that development.