The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ottawafan]

33 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I suspect that works better in countries with huge established footy pyramids.  It is a lot easier to say that the FA isn’t expected to develop players because the English pro landscape is completely fleshed out and filling that niche. They are flush with developmental capacity.  Here though, until recently there were only 3 pro teams.   In those conditions, it seems like it could very much be the job of the Association to facilitate the development of additional clubs to further that development. 

Oh I agree it has been here in Canada or at least tried to.  There was always a push and pull between OSA and clubs. But in all developed countries that have established football, no association has anything to do with the day to day development of players. That’s the domain of clubs. 

[narduch]

14 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Oh I agree it has been here in Canada or at least tried to.  There was always a push and pull between OSA and clubs. But in all developed countries that have established football, no association has anything to do with the day to day development of players. That’s the domain of clubs. 

France disagrees with you

[Ottawafan]

40 minutes ago, narduch said:

France disagrees with you

Are you talking Clairefontaine?  The distinction is they run a academies over an extended period of time ( few years ).  They aren’t thrown together for a camp or one session a week/month. I believe kids are still affiliated with their local clubs/academies. 

[narduch]

14 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Are you talking Clairefontaine?  The distinction is they run a academies over an extended period of time ( few years ).  They aren’t thrown together for a camp or one session a week/month. I believe kids are still affiliated with their local clubs/academies. 

But the association is involved. 

Which goes against your assertion

[Ottawafan]

46 minutes ago, narduch said:

But the association is involved. 

Which goes against your assertion

From what I understand they aren’t competing with youth academies, they work with them. There are about a dozen similar academies “run” by the federation. Each academy runs its own programs, has its own coaches and have their own development path separate from the others although it’s been a few years now and I may be out of the loop. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

From what I understand they aren’t competing with youth academies, they work with them. There are about a dozen similar academies “run” by the federation. Each academy runs its own programs, has its own coaches and have their own development path separate from the others although it’s been a few years now and I may be out of the loop. 

Isn’t the very intent of CSB to develop unison between clubs and the national federation?

[Ottawafan]

10 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Isn’t the very intent of CSB to develop unison between clubs and the national federation?

On paper yes. Youth clubs ( in relation to the CSA )  I can’t say.  Almost all kids in their system come thru academies/pro clubs.  OSA not so much as they deal with kids in local clubs but again the leverage has changed.  Can be friction between clubs and OSA in terms of the provincial camps and direction.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ottawafan

[SthMelbRed]

I'm moving house this week, so have been spending the last several days getting the new place ready to be lived in by the end of the week. I have just managed to catch up on nearly a week of this thread in the time between finishing dinner and starting to think about getting ready for bed. I think I deserve a cookie for getting through a lot of that shit.

Also, my opinion that @Ozzie_the_parrot is the biggest fuckwit ever to pollute this board has only been enhanced. What a pathetic loser he truly is.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Also, my opinion that @Ozzie_the_parrot is the biggest fuckwit ever to pollute this board has only been enhanced. What a pathetic loser he truly is.

I have never seen someone who consistently posts on this site who is so hellbent on undermining and minimizing the emergence of a domestic D1 footy league.  It is really baffling. Whether you agree with the vision they went with, or wish they had gone down some alternate path, the league is what it is at this point.  The direction is set.  The continued lamenting of that direction serves no constructive purpose except to provide a platform for his sermons. 

Observing that sort of "supporter" of Canadian footy is probably the most puzzling part of participating in this forum

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[El Hombre]

20 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Over the past decade or so, vast amounts of money have been spent on elite youth player development in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal by the three Canadian MLS teams. All three of these clubs are directly affiliated to the CSA and are hence an integral part of Canadian soccer.

Those three youth academies played a huge role in deepening and strengthening the player pool in a manner that facilitated qualification in 2022. In a 48 team World Cup environment with six rather than three automatic CONCACAF qualifiers there is every reason to think that is going to be sustainable moving forward.

(only because I'm procrastinating at work on a Monday morning)

Seeing as how your entire argument is built on this idea, I thought I'd look into how accurate this is.  I looked at the minutes played in all 14 Octo qualification games and what academy those players came from, and the numbers do not support your hypothesis.

For your information:

Canada played 13,804 minutes over those 14 games.
Players that came through MLS academies played 26.14% of those minutes. 
That compares to NCAA graduates (who didn't play with any of the 3 MLS academies) who played 32.24% and the rest at 41.61%. 

So, saying MLS academis played a "huge role" is a bit of a stretch, if not just outright incorrect.

The split among MLS academies works out to CFM - 3.12%, TFC - 12.3%, and VWFC - 10.73%

What is even more interesting is if you drill down a little further, you see that Sigma actually contributed more than any of the three academies at 18.65%.  Considering Forge is the professional arm of Sigma, it would seem that investing in CanPL is actually a really good thing for CSB to do.

Also, 14.51% of the minutes played during qualification were played by guys with L1O experience prior to turning pro.  Once again, this seems like a smart move on CSB's part to invest in this league and create more of these across the country if we are looking solely at facilitating World Cup qualification.

[Ottawafan]

6 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

(only because I'm procrastinating at work on a Monday morning)

Seeing as how your entire argument is built on this idea, I thought I'd look into how accurate this is.  I looked at the minutes played in all 14 Octo qualification games and what academy those players came from, and the numbers do not support your hypothesis.

For your information:

Canada played 13,804 minutes over those 14 games.
Players that came through MLS academies played 26.14% of those minutes. 
That compares to NCAA graduates (who didn't play with any of the 3 MLS academies) who played 32.24% and the rest at 41.61%. 

So, saying MLS academis played a "huge role" is a bit of a stretch, if not just outright incorrect.

The split among MLS academies works out to CFM - 3.12%, TFC - 12.3%, and VWFC - 10.73%

What is even more interesting is if you drill down a little further, you see that Sigma actually contributed more than any of the three academies at 18.65%.  Considering Forge is the professional arm of Sigma, it would seem that investing in CanPL is actually a really good thing for CSB to do.

Also, 14.51% of the minutes played during qualification were played by guys with L1O experience prior to turning pro.  Once again, this seems like a smart move on CSB's part to invest in this league and create more of these across the country if we are looking solely at facilitating World Cup qualification.

The cost of running youth academies is expensive, unless you get the players to pay ( either all or some ).  CPL clubs won't be able foot the bill at this point.  Aligning with clubs/academies is the smart choice for now.  I see Athletico is joining forces with OSU, which is a good first step.  Not sure what that will lead to.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

20 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

(only because I'm procrastinating at work on a Monday morning)

Seeing as how your entire argument is built on this idea, ...

Entire argument wasn't built on said idea.

20 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...The presence of high media profile D1 soccer in Canada from 2007 onwards in the shape of MLS has no doubt helped inspire many more players to hang in there with our sport who would previously have drifted away by their mid-teens even if they were not on one of the three academy rosters...

 

[El Hombre]

9 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Entire argument wasn't built on said idea.

 

Okay, so it is built on a hypothesis that is provably invalid and a feeling that can't be quantified.  Not a great foundation to build on.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Whatever, bud. Sigma players like Larin, Buchanan and Laryea went through an NCAA -> MLS -> Europe pathway. If you want to argue that having TFC on their doorstep as they were growing up had nothing to do with that then that's your prerogative.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[dyslexic nam]

I find this statement particularly ironic:

"...The presence of high media profile D1 soccer in Canada from 2007 onwards in the shape of MLS has no doubt helped inspire many more players to hang in there with our sport who would previously have drifted away by their mid-teens even if they were not on one of the three academy rosters..."

So it is a credit to MLS that it has inspired tons of people who aren't part of the 3 academies to continue playing the sport, but we cant recognize the value of CPL giving precisely those sorts of players an environment within which to continue playing at a high level and potentially developing into solid pros - some of whom will likely contribute to the CMNT.

Okay...

 

[El Hombre]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Whatever, bud. Sigma players like Larin, Buchanan and Laryea went through an NCAA -> MLS -> Europe pathway. If you want to argue that having TFC on their doorstep as they were growing up had nothing to do with that then that's your prerogative.

You bemoan how people refuse to treat your points with respect but when a good faith argument comes up, you dismiss it.

Fascinating.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

You ignored the nuanced argument that was in my original post because you were on a mission to prove I was wrong rather than to discuss what I had written in a respectful and constructive manner so spare me the patronising fascinating.

[El Hombre]

Just now, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

You ignored the nuanced argument that was in my original post because you were on a mission to prove I was wrong rather than to discuss what I had written in a respectful and constructive manner so spare me the patronising fascinating.

Now you just want to be the victim.  I wasn't on a mission to prove anything.  You presented a point, I crunched the numbers and presented the findings.  If anything, I was giving MLS more credit by including guys like Osorio as a TFC academy product when that's a stretch and Kaye who could argue that TFC stunted his growth as a player.

"Come down off your cross, we can use the wood." - Tom Waits

[Aird25]

4 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

On paper yes. Youth clubs ( in relation to the CSA )  I can’t say.  Almost all kids in their system come thru academies/pro clubs.  OSA not so much as they deal with kids in local clubs but again the leverage has changed.  Can be friction between clubs and OSA in terms of the provincial camps and direction.

I don’t know anything about OSA but you’re being obstinate about CPLs involvement in youth development. Last time you posted about this several people corrected you, yet for some reason you continue to declare that they are not involved 

[Aird25]

16 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Whatever, bud. Sigma players like Larin, Buchanan and Laryea went through an NCAA -> MLS -> Europe pathway. If you want to argue that having TFC on their doorstep as they were growing up had nothing to do with that then that's your prerogative.

MLS is not on the doorstep for many Canadians though. That’s a problem 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

This all started because someone claimed there were "no proper development pathways to continue the success we are currently having". Both the MLS academy -> MLS/Europe -> CMNT and NCAA -> MLS/Europe -> CMNT pathways are still very much there and don't need the CSB deal to keep them going.

[VinceA]

[Ottawafan]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t know anything about OSA but you’re being obstinate about CPLs involvement in youth development. Last time you posted about this several people corrected you, yet for some reason you continue to declare that they are not involved 

They are wrong.  Running camps or the odd practice isn't running a youth program.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

16 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

MLS is not on the doorstep for many Canadians though. That’s a problem 

^^^must be aware that this didn't stop Alphonso Davies from winding up with the Whitecaps despite growing up in Edmonton? The Whitecaps are active on the youth side of things right across western Canada and even in London, Ont.

More academies would clearly be good but CanPL isn't doing that. The bulk of their rosters are older cast offs from either the MLS pathway or pro clubs in Europe that are unlikely to make it big but will play for a low salary while continuing to chase the dream.

Unearthing the occasional players like Farsi and Loturi who may wind up on the fringes of CMNT selection is beneficial to a certain extent but it's not enough to justify what's happening on national team sponsorship revenues with the CSB deal right now.  

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Unearthing the occasional players like Farsi and Loturi is beneficial but it's not enough to justify what's happening on national team sponsorship revenues with the CSB deal right now.  

This assumes that the current state represents the future state.  As has been pointed out, MLS (the paradigm you hold up) started slowly and didn't have the sort of impact during its early years that you seem to be using as a point of criticism for CPL.  

It also frames the value equations solely in terms of delivering CMNT players - which is only one part of the equation.