TFC - 2022 Season Thread

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

1. The NBA and NHL have fuck all to say about what MLSE does with it's own money.

2. TFC does not have the independent revenue streams to cover $20m+ in player salaries alone.

Ok then.  Your the expert.

[SthMelbRed]

25 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Ok then.  You're the expert.

No. I'm just not an irredeemable TFC fanboy.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

No. I'm just not an irredeemable TFC fanboy.

You must be in the wrong thread. I doubt most TFC supporters have found this forum/thread!

[Ruffian]

11 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

No. I'm just not an irredeemable TFC fanboy.

That is a lot of hate there!

[Ivan]

12 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

No. I'm just not an irredeemable TFC fanboy.

Always good to get the facts on the Toronto sports scene from someone from Vancouver who lives in New Zealand!

[rkomar]

Apart from the snide aside, was he wrong?  It's been a while, but last I heard a few years ago TFC were running in the red.  I doubt that has changed in recent years.  Perhaps MLSE accountants can offset TFC losses against TML profits tax-wise, making running TFC at a loss palatable?  I'm pretty sure that TFC would not be one of the top spenders (if not the top) in the league if they weren't part of MLSE.

[Ruffian]

1 minute ago, rkomar said:

Apart from the snide aside, was he wrong?  It's been a while, but last I heard a few years ago TFC were running in the red.  I doubt that has changed in recent years.  Perhaps MLSE accountants can offset TFC losses against TML profits tax-wise, making running TFC at a loss palatable?  I'm pretty sure that TFC would not be one of the top spenders (if not the top) in the league if they weren't part of MLSE.

I don't think we actually have enough information to know. The reported losses are likely manipulated for tax and player bargaining reasons. I would assume they are making a loss though.

[Kingston]

18 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

2. TFC does not have the independent revenue streams to cover $20m+ in player salaries alone.

Using some precovid numbers to estimate revenue:

$40 average ticket price * 25 000 average attendance * 17 home games = $17 million

concession revenue $2.50 per fan per game (I read a list of MLS teams on that somewhere once) = $1 million

jersey sponsorship $4 million

media revenue (local and league share) $ low millions???

I'm probably missing something but I agree with your assessment.

[SpursFlu]

I thought MLSE has more money than God. Does it really matter if tfc as a stand alone makes or loses money?

[Ivan]

9 hours ago, rkomar said:

Apart from the snide aside, was he wrong?  It's been a while, but last I heard a few years ago TFC were running in the red.  I doubt that has changed in recent years.  Perhaps MLSE accountants can offset TFC losses against TML profits tax-wise, making running TFC at a loss palatable?  I'm pretty sure that TFC would not be one of the top spenders (if not the top) in the league if they weren't part of MLSE.

Yeah, my bad, should have added the smiley.

But is he right?  I don't know.  Pre-pandemic, last reports I saw (Forbes, I believe) showed TFC generated either small losses (0-5 million) or small profits in the same order of magnitude.  This included depreciation of the $140 million renos to BMO field. The company I worked for depreciated capital expenditures over 7 years, so 20 mill a year?

But i'm sure MLSE accountants can make the books look the way they want.  Although they may do P & L  statements for each of their teams (and development company), they are still one company that can offset the loss of one silo by another.

[Ivan]

6 hours ago, Kingston said:

Using some precovid numbers to estimate revenue:

$40 average ticket price * 25 000 average attendance * 17 home games = $17 million

concession revenue $2.50 per fan per game (I read a list of MLS teams on that somewhere once) = $1 million

jersey sponsorship $4 million

media revenue (local and league share) $ low millions???

I'm probably missing something but I agree with your assessment.

I did a similar calculation.  Pre-Insigne and pre-pandemic, I think they were close to break even. Just my opinion.  Probably will lose money now with the added salary and Altidore buyout.  But on the whole, MLSE prints money.

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Ivan said:

I did a similar calculation.  Pre-Insigne and pre-pandemic, I think they were close to break even. Just my opinion.  Probably will lose money now with the added salary and Altidore buyout.  But on the whole, MLSE prints money.

Absolutely, MLSE makes money by the bucket load. However, I'm still pretty convinced that none of the buckets are being directly filled by TFC. They're a loss-leader for the Behemoth that is MLSE. To be fair, they might even make money out of BMO Field, as well, as the operator. However, I'm not familiar enough to know what other events are being hosted there that they might be earning off. Presumably, in non-Covid times, there'd be the odd summer concert hosted there?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

MLSE are almost certainly factoring in the anticipated large increase in MLS media rights from 2023 onwards and the likely effect of hosting WC 2026 at BMO Field as it draws closer. The scale of celebration in the GTA when Italy beat England at Wembley in the final of Euro 2020 probably also made the penny drop as to why they may not have got the most bang for their buck in marketing terms out of the Pozuelo and Soteldo signings.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

6 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Absolutely, MLSE makes money by the bucket load. However, I'm still pretty convinced that none of the buckets are being directly filled by TFC. They're a loss-leader for the Behemoth that is MLSE. To be fair, they might even make money out of BMO Field, as well, as the operator. However, I'm not familiar enough to know what other events are being hosted there that they might be earning off. Presumably, in non-Covid times, there'd be the odd summer concert hosted there?

MLSE also owns the Argos who play at BMO Field.  That's another ten stadium dates per year which has to help them as the stadium operator as you pointed out.

[Ivan]

7 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Absolutely, MLSE makes money by the bucket load. However, I'm still pretty convinced that none of the buckets are being directly filled by TFC. They're a loss-leader for the Behemoth that is MLSE. To be fair, they might even make money out of BMO Field, as well, as the operator. However, I'm not familiar enough to know what other events are being hosted there that they might be earning off. Presumably, in non-Covid times, there'd be the odd summer concert hosted there?

I don't know, man.  You go to a game, there's 25,000 people there all kitted out in TFC gear, concession stands packed, BMO sponsor name on shirts/stadium, other sponsor names everywhere, I sometimes find it hard to believe they lose money.  And as Kingston said, other than the Argos and NT games (men and women), nothing else happens there.  I only remember one concert and that was when the stadium first opened.  Parking is also expensive, but pretty sure that goes to the City coffers. 

[Metro]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:28 AM, nfitz said:

You must be in the wrong thread. I doubt most TFC supporters have found this forum/thread!

I found it!! I've been here a while, actually!! 😄 

[SoccMan]

Thing is TFC still have close to 20000 season ticket holders . Before TFC it was the Blizzard of the old NASL who were averaging around the 12 to 16000  a game in the late 70’s early 80’s . It wasn’t until 2007 and the birth of TFC that crowds of 18 to 25000 on average were attending games at BMO . MLSE knows the market is there for this level of soccer in Toronto and when they are winning they have a presence in the Toronto sports scene , yes not the Leafs, Raptors or Jays level but a strong 4th team in Toronto’s sports scene , plus their popularity is strong with the younger generation which bodes well for future growth or at least sustainability in the future . Therefore , not surprised MLSE is not afraid to spend. When BMO is filled and especially if it’s an important game you really don’t notice that you are not at a top world level soccer game it feels major with the atmosphere and packed stadium and in the end that is really what matters when your there watching live .

[SpursFlu]

Bell & Rogers essential own MLSE. Maybe the 200 million bailout they got from Zoolander went to buying some Italian imports

[Free kick]

On 1/5/2022 at 10:50 PM, Ivan said:

Yeah, my bad, should have added the smiley.

But is he right?  I don't know.  Pre-pandemic, last reports I saw (Forbes, I believe) showed TFC generated either small losses (0-5 million) or small profits in the same order of magnitude.  This included depreciation of the $140 million renos to BMO field. The company I worked for depreciated capital expenditures over 7 years, so 20 mill a year?

But i'm sure MLSE accountants can make the books look the way they want.  Although they may do P & L  statements for each of their teams (and development company), they are still one company that can offset the loss of one silo by another.

Damn, i just typed a lenghty post.  But its gone. 😃

Take two:

Yes,  Forbes is a respected publication and they devote a lot effort in valuations of sports teams.  But even they will state that what they report are educated estimates.   I seem to recall that they had mentioned an operating loss of 9 Mill for TFC.    But that's an operating loss only and that thats the only thing (operating performance) that they report.   Does that include things like merchandizing revenues and rights fees?  likely not and you can be sure that there are a many other revenues that are excluded from operating income.    Basically,  since MLSE is a private company,  so none of us knows their true financials.  Even if you go to Annual reports for the parent companies (like Rogers and Bell),  MLSE will appear under minority interest and or as footnote in the financials.  There is no other info.  i remain fairly certain that for operating purpose the 5 clubs operating independently of each other while acknowledging that that there are economies of scale that can be realized accross the five assets (clubs)  

So getting back to my original post on this topic in the previous page.   When i commented, i was careful to used words like :  " I believe", "i suspect" or "I doubt" for the reasons i mentioned on the first paragraph.    We dont know.  But what i said is based on what i have read on this topic and on MLSE.  Again, it could be wrong because what you read is not always entirely true..   I also have a bit of an academic background on financial reporting but i will never call myself an expert.  So along comes SthMelbRed contradicts me and makes definitive statements without a source and without disclaiming anything and states them as matter of fact.  Well, i am not going to bother to look things up and get sources.  Not worth my time.     therefore, my response of "Ok then.  Your the expert."  is really this only thing i could say.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Free kick

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If I were on 85,000 and had to bust my ass so he could shine, I'm not sure what the motivation would be. It is a very bad look.

This sort of salary discrepancy is digusting and an insult to a team sport like football. Even at Barça, with the highest paid player in the world, the lowest salaries, from academy players just come up, were over 5% that of Messi. He pulled in 50 million, they are given 2.5.

The spread at TFC is to have guys making less than 1% what Insigne pulls in, on the same pitch, with the same objectives. In a sport where if you get a red card and go from 10 to 9 field players you are screwed and not even Insigne can change that. It is the exact opposite of what a serious club in a serious league should be doing (and more so since they are paying him more than what he would have accepted). 

[Shway]

McNaughton rumoured to be on TFCs radar

I like him, and hope he gets this move or a next.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Transfer fees are potentialy problematic in MLS as they count against the cap but I guess the $1 million they receive for Richie Laryea helps as 95% of that can go towards the roster apparently.

[rkomar]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If I were on 85,000 and had to bust my ass so he could shine, I'm not sure what the motivation would be. It is a very bad look.

This sort of salary discrepancy is digusting and an insult to a team sport like football. Even at Barça, with the highest paid player in the world, the lowest salaries, from academy players just come up, were over 5% that of Messi. He pulled in 50 million, they are given 2.5.

The spread at TFC is to have guys making less than 1% what Insigne pulls in, on the same pitch, with the same objectives. In a sport where if you get a red card and go from 10 to 9 field players you are screwed and not even Insigne can change that. It is the exact opposite of what a serious club in a serious league should be doing (and more so since they are paying him more than what he would have accepted). 

The MLS salary scheme is to blame for that.  Besides the DP/TAM/GAM special cases, everyone else is paid by the league under a team salary cap.  TFC couldn't pay their cheapest players any more even if they wanted to.  The only way the bottom guys get raises is if the league revenues go up.  So, maybe they hope the well-paid stars attract more fans and bring in more revenue to bring the cap up.

[Unnamed Trialist]

31 minutes ago, rkomar said:

The MLS salary scheme is to blame for that.  Besides the DP/TAM/GAM special cases, everyone else is paid by the league under a team salary cap.  TFC couldn't pay their cheapest players any more even if they wanted to.  The only way the bottom guys get raises is if the league revenues go up.  So, maybe they hope the well-paid stars attract more fans and bring in more revenue to bring the cap up.

Nowhere in the world works with such broad spreads, not China, not Saudi Arabia. Of course the other pro sports don't either.

The MLS has not left the NASL mentality, it is still in an infant stage.