Herdman new head coach

[RJB]

Just now, Obinna said:

They were nearly on par with us statistically. 

I think that's the point: Either they are our equal and that's pathetic, or they're our equal and that's fine.  

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, RJB said:

I think that's the point: Either they are our equal and that's pathetic, or they're our equal and that's fine.  

I think it depends on if you're an idealist or a realist. 

Ideally we shouldn't even be in this qualifying considering the talent we have.

Realistically, it takes more than Talent to have a successful team.

Either way, Herdman wasn't responsible for the teams past failures, so it feels a little misplaced to be having this discussion here.

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, shamrock said:

Do they also have a women's program? 

Not sure, but Jamaica, T&T and Panama do. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

I can see both sides of this argument, and I think both can be true.

On one side, it is almost impossible to Judge Herdman because all we have is him winning games that we all expect him to win. In fact, it is extremely frustrating that he hasn't scheduled another game against a better team. The team looked very poor in the last game and that can be unnerving when we don't have any true positive results yet.

On the other side, Herdman has been successfully in the games he has been given. He has gotten the results and broken some records. The last game was poor, but Canada was missing its top 2 attacking mids. that can be difficult to overcome given Canada's lack of depth.

I honestly think both sides are correct and aren't exclusive...

[Gian-Luca]

45 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Those saying we went with 3 defensive midfielders are just wrong. 

No, I don't think we are - what I mean is that all three of those players are defensive midfielders by trade in terms of their club play (Atiba wasn't always but has been in the past number of years at his club). That would be the case whether Herdman played any of three of them at striker or in the back four (similar to when Floro played CB's in midfield, it didn't suddenly make them midfielders by trade). We didn't get a lot of creative passes, attacking through-balls to strikers or wingers or midfielders driving into the box taking on players one-on-one and beating them the way you would expect to see from attacking midfielders because none of those three players bring those skill-sets at this point in their careers (and some of them never did) because they are largely defensive midfielders by trade. I don't think any of them are even so much as  "box to box" (the closest I think we have to that based on club form would be Mark Antony Kaye)

[Keegan]

Just because they are best at something doesn’t mean they are confined to it.  Atiba and Teibert have both been attacking midfielders in their career as well and even fullbacks.  

The point of where they largely play is somewhat irrelevant when you look at alternatives.  What were we to do?  Put Chapman in for Teibert?  I personally wouldn’t have changed a thing. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Just because they are best at something doesn’t mean they are confined to it.  Atiba and Teibert have both been attacking midfielders in their career as well and even fullbacks.  

The point of where they largely play is somewhat irrelevant when you look at alternatives.  What were we to do?  Put Chapman in for Teibert?  I personally wouldn’t have changed a thing. 

That doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good at attacking... I don't think anyone is arguing that we literally plaid with 3 defensive mids. But just that the 3 mids we used are mosst effective in the defensive mid role. They are not as creative. Tiebert did a good job, but it was obvious we had no true attacking mid.

Whether Chapman would have done better is a different argument. Maybe he would have brought more attacking intent... But that might not have been successful.

The main thing I noticed. Was just how many times Tiebert, and Piette, and sometimes Hutch passed the ball backwards in situations where they had the opportunity to push it down field. A guy like Osorio and Arfield (maybe Chapman) would have looked to move the ball forwards quickly and make offensive runs into the box. Which is what what we were missing for much of the game. 

[C2SKI]

24 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

The main thing I noticed. Was just how many times Tiebert, and Piette, and sometimes Hutch passed the ball backwards in situations where they had the opportunity to push it down field.

This is one of the hardest things for me to make a judgement on when I'm not watching a game live. The camera simply cuts off too much of the play for me to tell when passes are available, and where runs are being made. From what I could see though, I thought Teibert made more unlocking passes that anyone else on the pitch. 

[PopePouri]

Teibert seems to drift out left when he's playing a more advanced midfield position, much like Matuidi. 

I would have dropped Piette and given Chapman a go, but I understand with the field conditions, maybe it was better to be more pragmatic. 

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

That doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good at attacking... I don't think anyone is arguing that we literally plaid with 3 defensive mids. But just that the 3 mids we used are mosst effective in the defensive mid role. They are not as creative. Tiebert did a good job, but it was obvious we had no true attacking mid.

Whether Chapman would have done better is a different argument. Maybe he would have brought more attacking intent... But that might not have been successful.

And my main point in all of this, bringing this back to Herdman, is that we just don't know, because we haven't had anywhere near enough games to try something like this out under Herdman. Is he just someone who is going to take an extremely conservative approach on the road or is he willing to ditch that if the better attacking mid players were available.Will he be even more conservative on the road against even the mid-level Concacaf teams? Personally I'm none the wiser at the end of 2018 as I was at the start of Herdman's appointment.

The only other year I can recall us not giving up a goal against the entire year was 1998........because we only played 1 game that year, a 1-0 win at home vs. Macedonia where Niall Thompson scored on a header and Ed Jovanoski gave an interview at half time looking like a deer caught in the headlights of several Mack trucks moving towards him at light speed. I was most pleased in this game that we didn't give up any scoring chances (never mind goals) but again, difficult to know what to make of that since St. Kitts' other victories were at home against a winless Puerto Rico and 10 goals on the road against what has proven to be one of the worst in the competition (currently in 3rd last place).

All I think we've really learned our team with Herdman as a coach after a year (aka 4 games) in terms of tactics and playing style is that he's willing to play the kids. Which is a good thing, but doesn't tell us much.

[Bison44]

Its been a almost a year, we should be seeing his imprint and his "transformation" on the mentality, attitude style etc by now.  I dont see how his endless spouting of positivity, excellence attitude etc translates into his coaching.  Throwing out 3 D-mids, playing your most exiting offensive player at LB.  For all the talk of his meticulous planning and preparation the team comes out flat and doesnt seem to have any sort of a gameplan on how to break down the opposition.  This seems to me like the same old same old we have gotten for decades.  We had the talent in camp to unlock St Kitts but we were one bad bounce away from a draw.  Herdman is doning the absolute minimum, capping and playing youngsters and running the table against the minnows of concacaf, isnt anything to be too excited about.  For all the hype and sizzle I was hoping to see more positive signs out of the program.  And he sure as hell better have a camp Poutine.  He needs to start making all these improvements he keeps trumpeting.  

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Its been a almost a year, we should be seeing his imprint and his "transformation" on the mentality, attitude style etc by now.  I dont see how his endless spouting of positivity, excellence attitude etc translates into his coaching.  Throwing out 3 D-mids, playing your most exiting offensive player at LB.  For all the talk of his meticulous planning and preparation the team comes out flat and doesnt seem to have any sort of a gameplan on how to break down the opposition.  This seems to me like the same old same old we have gotten for decades.  We had the talent in camp to unlock St Kitts but we were one bad bounce away from a draw.  Herdman is doning the absolute minimum, capping and playing youngsters and running the table against the minnows of concacaf, isnt anything to be too excited about.  For all the hype and sizzle I was hoping to see more positive signs out of the program.  And he sure as hell better have a camp Poutine.  He needs to start making all these improvements he keeps trumpeting.  

I disagree with this very strongly. The team had a nervy first few minutes, but I would not call that coming out flat. A few things didn't come off and they were put on the back foot early by the home team. Surprise, surprise. These things happen and I don't fault Herdman for that.

And I know it didn't seem like we had a gameplan, but clearly we did. All teams at this level has a game plan. I don't think our gameplan was executed well, at least offensively, but it was clear the plan was to build patiently and wait for the gaps to appear, but they never did

Can we be critical of that gameplan, sure! But let's not suggest there was no game plan.

[MtlMario]

I will reserve my judgement on Herdman till after the Gold Cup.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

I will reserve my judgement on Herdman till after the Gold Cup.

Me too, and even if we do not get past quarters, you have to judge how the tournament has gone and specific game circumstances. Last GC I think we lacked ambition vs. Jamaica, but could not really give anyone a proper analysis of what happened and where Zambrano went wrong. So I felt he'd done good enough. 

Same may go this time. Though I would sure like to get past quarters this time round. 

[Bison44]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I disagree with this very strongly. The team had a nervy first few minutes, but I would not call that coming out flat. A few things didn't come off and they were put on the back foot early by the home team. Surprise, surprise. These things happen and I don't fault Herdman for that.

And I know it didn't seem like we had a gameplan, but clearly we did. All teams at this level has a game plan. I don't think our gameplan was executed well, at least offensively, but it was clear the plan was to build patiently and wait for the gaps to appear, but they never did

Can we be critical of that gameplan, sure! But let's not suggest there was no game plan.

So the game plan was build slowly and wait for gaps??  I guess playing hoof and chase is a game plan as well.  You are much more forgiving than I am.  If he really is the boy wonder I wish he would start showing us some of it.  

[Obinna]

18 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So the game plan was build slowly and wait for gaps??  I guess playing hoof and chase is a game plan as well.  You are much more forgiving than I am.  If he really is the boy wonder I wish he would start showing us some of it.  

Oh please.

The game plan was to build from the back and move the ball laterally and create gaps to exploit - as far as I could tell anyways. Obviously we didn't do a good job of that.

Coaches don't play the game, the players do.

Now If you want to be critical of his tactics, I would love to have a discussion on that.

But if you want to pretend he had no plan, continue to rant hyperbolically about how Herdman is doing the absolute minimum because we didn't destroy a good SKN side away from home. Maybe someone else will engage you, but i'm not interested in that sort of thing.

Like others around here, I am reserving my opinion on him. I do like the energy coming from the side under his leadership, but the picture will become clearer with more data points. Let's keep in mind we are only 4 games into the Herdman era...

Edited November 21, 2018 by Obinna

[BrennanFan]

Given his lack of track record, the onus is on Herdman to prove himself.  So far he has proven nothing.  Giving out first caps, playing youth, overlooking veterans and not playing friendlies against competitive teams - this is what coaches do when they do not have confidence in themselves and are actively protecting their position and reputation. 

[RS]

7 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Given his lack of track record, the onus is on Herdman to prove himself.  So far he has proven nothing.  Giving out first caps, playing youth, overlooking veterans and not playing friendlies against competitive teams - this is what coaches do when they do not have confidence in themselves and are actively protecting their position and reputation. 

Your criticism of John Herdman is that he doesn't have confidence in himself??

[BrennanFan]

16 minutes ago, RS said:

Your criticism of John Herdman is that he doesn't have confidence in himself??

Yes, and I'm glad you brought up his full of himself demeanor because any first year psychology student could tell you it's textbook overcompensation for character traits he actually lacks. 

  

[RS]

15 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Yes, and I'm glad you brought up his full of himself demeanor because any first year psychology student could tell you it's textbook overcompensation for character traits he actually lacks. 

  

Ok, Freud. Maybe you're on to something.

Or maybe Herdman is giving out new caps, playing youth and overlooking veterans because the next World Cup is four years away and injecting new blood is exactly what is needed right now?

You slay me, man. Next time I see you, your first drink is on me.

[BrennanFan]

3 minutes ago, RS said:

Ok, Freud. Maybe you're on to something.

Or maybe Herdman is giving out new caps, playing youth and overlooking veterans because the next World Cup is four years away and injecting new blood is exactly what is needed right now?

You slay me, man. Next time I see you, your first drink is on me.

I like sex on the beach.

[dyslexic nam]

Well that escalated quickly.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

Given his lack of track record, the onus is on Herdman to prove himself.  So far he has proven nothing.  Giving out first caps, playing youth, overlooking veterans and not playing friendlies against competitive teams - this is what coaches do when they do not have confidence in themselves and are actively protecting their position and reputation. 

This is a complete blanket statement. 

But I do agree Herdman hasn't proven anything yet.

He hasn't had any failures either. Feels like the team is doing just enough with every passing camp.

When the Gold Cup comes, that's when we'll learn a lot. I am optimistic still.

[RS]

10 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

I like sex on the beach.

I won't tell your wife.

[Obinna]

45 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Yes, and I'm glad you brought up his full of himself demeanor because any first year psychology student could tell you it's textbook overcompensation for character traits he actually lacks. 

  

I do get that vibe, but the players also seem genuine in their approval of him thus far, so perhaps it's just my prebuilt negative bias because I was initially disapproving on the basis he has no experience (relatively - don't want to open the CanWNT thing) and I held that against him accordingly (still struggling to let it go).

If the players like him, maybe he is actually decent. Players can smell out a bullshit coach at any level of soccer.

Capping players is never a negative btw.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Obinna