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Herdman new head coach


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24 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Jesus man.  If Herdman gets us to the World Cup in 2022, you are damn right people will be saying he did a good job.  We haven't been there in over 30'years, and even that was assisted by Me I on getting an auto spot.  Yes, we have a talented group of players, but if you plan to be critical of Herdman if he makes the World Cup but doesn't go deep in the tourney, I would suggest that he is not the one with the issue.  

We haven't even made the hex in a number of cycles.  Making it to the  2022 WC would be a massive success.  Full stop.

With the pool of players we have, we should  qualify for the World Cup and we should be  competitive. What I am saying we have  such low expectations that it’s  pathetic. Also the CSA is too scared to really test this team and Herdman. But they weren’t afraid to throw Findlay and Oz to Scotland right away interesting ... 

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37 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

With the pool of players we have, we should  qualify for the World Cup and we should be  competitive. What I am saying we have  such low expectations that it’s  pathetic. Also the CSA is too scared to really test this team and Herdman. But they weren’t afraid to throw Findlay and Oz to Scotland right away interesting ... 

We have low expectations because history.  Not sure which team you have been following but the one I have cheered for has stumbled time and time again.  Thinking that it is a given that we should be in the WC, and that making it in 2022 would be no big deal from a coaching standpoint seems extremely naive. 

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I understand the history. But Canada has never before had the talent like we have now and everyone should see that. Also we getting better. The last gold cup should of show us that. Also same with the Scotland game, earning a draw was huge and with none of our top strikers and Davies. There should a  an expectation and maybe even a higher one because of Herdman hire. There are  more qualified canadian Managers out there  then Herdman so ya it should be high! 

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17 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Just because they had bad World Cup just before Herdman got there, doesn’t mean they weren’t a strong team. They were 4th in 2003 and 9th after that. Also they were doing well in other tourney. Also it doesn’t change the fact that Herdman never won the gold or silver and never got pasted the quarters. Also he was too chicken shit to  fulfill What he said he was going to do, beat the Americans and become #1 in the world and guide Canada in the next World Cup. Too me that’s a punk move. Make all these statements. Fail against the USA and put a gun too the CSA and say I’m the saviour of the men’s program 

This is ridiculous.

Canada was 9th in 2007? Great, that was just another group stage exit.

Herdman never won gold or silver? Ok, well Canada has never won a medal of any colour under another coach.

Never got past the quarters? That's the only (mild) underperformance I can see in his tenure as women's coach, given that it was a World Cup on home soil. However, Canada had only ever made it past the group stage one other time in its history. Also, he was only in charge for one Women's World Cup, so the "never" part is disingenuous as he only had one shot at it.

The rest of your post is conjecture not worth getting into.

Look, I get the hesitation to trust Herdman as a men's national team coach since it's something he's literally never done before, and his personal style could be a lot to handle for some people, but to trying to use his results as the women's coach against him is idiotic considering that Canada enjoyed its most successful period with him at the helm.

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On 11/20/2018 at 5:11 AM, Gian-Luca said:

Whether that is true or not, it doesn't really help us at all. To illustrate my point, I have no idea if Herdman went with 3 defensive midfielders in the centre of the park yesterday because that's the sort of thing we should expect under Herdman for any road game, or because we were without both Osorio and Arfield therefore Herdman thought "I'll just play my best midfielders that are available to me and base my team strategy on that"...

Agree with Keegan that at only Piette was deployed as a DM in this game, but also think this thought is valid as well.

I also get the sense that Herdman is probably the kind of manager that would rather find a way to get his best players on the field than stick to a rigid tactical plan or formation.

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Interesting to hear coach Herdman on TSN 1040 yesterday, essentially laying claim to the entire women's program, right from the individual talent, to Rhian Wilkinson as head coach of the U17s.  He referenced how they worked hard to build "the whole bloody thing."  

He also said that coaching men is exactly the same as coaching women; that an elite athlete is an elite athlete.  

And also, that the win in St. Kitts was a good win, and that if a "boxscore" fan thinks otherwise, then they should become a real fan to know that that is a very tough place to play, and that it was a good result for us.  

This is a serious question, that hopefully won't matter, but what are we judging Herdman on?  Do we expect qualification out of the Gold Cup groups?  Or do we expect nothing, and are looking to 2026?  

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7 minutes ago, RJB said:

Interesting to hear coach Herdman on TSN 1040 yesterday, essentially laying claim to the entire women's program, right from the individual talent, to Rhian Wilkinson as head coach of the U17s.  He referenced how they worked hard to build "the whole bloody thing."  

He also said that coaching men is exactly the same as coaching women; that an elite athlete is an elite athlete.  

And also, that the win in St. Kitts was a good win, and that if a "boxscore" fan thinks otherwise, then they should become a real fan to know that that is a very tough place to play, and that it was a good result for us.  

This is a serious question, that hopefully won't matter, but what are we judging Herdman on?  Do we expect qualification out of the Gold Cup groups?  Or do we expect nothing, and are looking to 2026?  

This has been touched on in one of the forums. I'm looking for something similar to last year. Solid play, hopefully some progress, definitely making it out of the group! We have too much talent not to make it out of the group.

If we are somehow embarrassed, red flags will definitely fly! That said, it would have to be the embarrassment of all embarrassments for Herdman not to lead us through 2022 qualifying. I truly believe we have the horses to get us to Qatar!

I think you're getting ahead of yourself bringing up 2026! ;)

Edited by dbailey62
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8 minutes ago, RJB said:

Interesting to hear coach Herdman on TSN 1040 yesterday, essentially laying claim to the entire women's program, right from the individual talent, to Rhian Wilkinson as head coach of the U17s.  He referenced how they worked hard to build "the whole bloody thing."  

He also said that coaching men is exactly the same as coaching women; that an elite athlete is an elite athlete.  

And also, that the win in St. Kitts was a good win, and that if a "boxscore" fan thinks otherwise, then they should become a real fan to know that that is a very tough place to play, and that it was a good result for us.  

This is a serious question, that hopefully won't matter, but what are we judging Herdman on?  Do we expect qualification out of the Gold Cup groups?  Or do we expect nothing, and are looking to 2026?  

What I will judge Herdman on over the next 12 to 18 months:

Gold cup: 

- failure to advance from group = failure

- quarter finals = satisfactory

- semi finals = successful tournament

- finals = tremendously exceeded expectations 

Nations league: 

3rd in group aka Relegation = failure 

2nd in group aka safety = satisfactory 

1st in group aka title playoff = successful tournament 

Finals = tremendously exceeded expectations 

 

2 failures - Herdman out F

1 failure - Harsh criticism deserved D

2 satisfactories - moderate criticism C

Any other combination - job well done

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Serious question for the people that think failure to get out of the group in the Gold Cup is a cut and dried failure. Does the draw matter at all? If we are in a group with Mexico and Panama, does that change opinions at all?

I am leaning towards it being a failure if we don't get out of the group, but I'm going to hold off until seeing the draw before declaring it as an immutable position.

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5 minutes ago, Kent said:

Serious question for the people that think failure to get out of the group in the Gold Cup is a cut and dried failure. Does the draw matter at all? If we are in a group with Mexico and Panama, does that change opinions at all?

I am leaning towards it being a failure if we don't get out of the group, but I'm going to hold off until seeing the draw before declaring it as an immutable position.

IMO, the opponents and the way we play are really important when assessing JH performance. That apply for the GC and the Nations League.

I can see some scenarios where  we are relegated to League B and could still  considered our performance as satisfactory: For example, a group with Mexico and Honduras where we finish 3rd only based on GD and we got some interesting results along the way.

I could also picture some scenarios where a GC quaterfinas is deemed a failure because we lose to an average opponent at that stage.

 

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18 minutes ago, Kent said:

Serious question for the people that think failure to get out of the group in the Gold Cup is a cut and dried failure. Does the draw matter at all? If we are in a group with Mexico and Panama, does that change opinions at all?

I am leaning towards it being a failure if we don't get out of the group, but I'm going to hold off until seeing the draw before declaring it as an immutable position.

Sure the group draw matters but given that virtually every player from the 2017 GC squad either moved to a higher league Cav, Borjan, Davies, Hoilett, MAK etc or elevated their level of play Oso, the new kids on the block plus Hutch a QF does not do it for me. Remember that we had Costa Rica and Honduras in our group and finished 2nd in 2017 and OZ was only on the job for about 7 months. Herdman will have a year n half plus all the Nations League games/camps. 

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30 minutes ago, Kent said:

Serious question for the people that think failure to get out of the group in the Gold Cup is a cut and dried failure. Does the draw matter at all? If we are in a group with Mexico and Panama, does that change opinions at all?

I am leaning towards it being a failure if we don't get out of the group, but I'm going to hold off until seeing the draw before declaring it as an immutable position.

To a degree.

On one hand, we'll have to beat teams like Mexico and Panama at somewhere along the way in our quest to qualify for the WC.

On the other hand, some leniency could perhaps be given if we end up in such a group.

That said, I don't expect us to land in such a group, so it's kind of irrelevant.

I don't know the exact seeding format for GC, but we should be the 2nd strongest team in any group.

Therefore, I could imagine a Mexico, Canada, Haiti, St. Kitts group - or a US, Canada, Curacao, Dominican Repulic group, but I don't expect a Mexico, Panama, Canada, Haiti group, let's say. That is very unbalanced, considering some of the teams who will qualify.

Remember, 16 teams means a lot more weaker teams than usual.

The toughest group I imagine would be something like: Costa Rica, Honduras, Canada and Haiti. That could happen, I guess.

Even still, if we can't get out of that group, that is still a failure in my eyes. Again, if we want to qualify for the World Cup, we'll have to be better than one of Costa Rica or Honduras most likely. 

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27 minutes ago, aloyol said:

IMO, the opponents and the way we play are really important when assessing JH performance. That apply for the GC and the Nations League.

I can see some scenarios where  we are relegated to League B and could still  considered our performance as satisfactory: For example, a group with Mexico and Honduras where we finish 3rd only based on GD and we got some interesting results along the way.

I could also picture some scenarios where a GC quaterfinas is deemed a failure because we lose to an average opponent at that stage.

 

Again, that would be a real unfortunate draw. I don't see it happening.

Won't concacaf rankings dictate Nations league groupings?

If the top 4 teams are seeded, let's say:

1-mex 2-usa 3-costa 4-pan

The next 4 teams should be:

5-hon 6-tnt 7-jam 8-can

So slim chance we get Mexico AND Honduras, as far as I could tell.

As always though, could be totally wrong. Happy to be corrected.

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6 hours ago, RJB said:

Interesting to hear coach Herdman on TSN 1040 yesterday, essentially laying claim to the entire women's program, right from the individual talent, to Rhian Wilkinson as head coach of the U17s.  He referenced how they worked hard to build "the whole bloody thing."  

He also said that coaching men is exactly the same as coaching women; that an elite athlete is an elite athlete.  

And also, that the win in St. Kitts was a good win, and that if a "boxscore" fan thinks otherwise, then they should become a real fan to know that that is a very tough place to play, and that it was a good result for us.  

This is a serious question, that hopefully won't matter, but what are we judging Herdman on?  Do we expect qualification out of the Gold Cup groups?  Or do we expect nothing, and are looking to 2026?  

Thanks. Didn't know he was on yesterday. Here is that interview for those that want to listen. Starts at 29:00
https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/sekeres-price-november-26-hour-2-1.1216561

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6 hours ago, Obinna said:

What I will judge Herdman on over the next 12 to 18 months:

Gold cup: 

- failure to advance from group = failure

- quarter finals = satisfactory

- semi finals = successful tournament

- finals = tremendously exceeded expectations 

Nations league: 

3rd in group aka Relegation = failure 

2nd in group aka safety = satisfactory 

1st in group aka title playoff = successful tournament 

Finals = tremendously exceeded expectations 

2 failures - Herdman out F

1 failure - Harsh criticism deserved D

2 satisfactories - moderate criticism C

Any other combination - job well done

This a great criteria ?? We should expect minimum - 2 Satisfactory performances and even then we won’t be as happy 

Quarterfinals at the 2019 Gold cup just repeats what we did in 2017 with Zambrano and can be seen as a no progress/ no set back. 

Same goes for Nations League (4 groups of 3)

Finishing second and remaining in Group A for the next edition just confirms what we already know: Canada is Top 8 in CONCACAF 

To Herdman’s own words and vision -> He expects that by 2022 were top 3-4 so that we’re after Costa Rica and ready to compete for a World Cup spot, he said this on Sportsnet 650 Radio Today

Yes 2018 was a perfect year, 4 Wins & 0 Loses, no goals cenceded and 17 scored etc

But the friendly vs NZ in March (They were coming off a lost WC Intercontinental playoff vs Peru in November 2017 and called up new players 

All 3 matches were against minnows 

More or less were gearing towards the right directions now we just need to see it on paper besides other factors (more Youth, etc)

  

 

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1 hour ago, Blackjack15 said:

To Herdman’s own words and vision -> He expects that by 2022 were top 3-4 so that we’re after Costa Rica and ready to compete for a World Cup spot, he said this on Sportsnet 650 Radio Today

 

I like the specificity of this commitment - in part because Herdman must know that he has to achieve the kind of objectives @Obinna identified.  Without those kind of short term results, there is no way we could legitimately be considered "top 3-4" by 2022.

Edited by dyslexic nam
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16 hours ago, RJB said:

Interesting to hear coach Herdman on TSN 1040 yesterday, essentially laying claim to the entire women's program, right from the individual talent, to Rhian Wilkinson as head coach of the U17s.  He referenced how they worked hard to build "the whole bloody thing."  

He also said that coaching men is exactly the same as coaching women; that an elite athlete is an elite athlete.  

And also, that the win in St. Kitts was a good win, and that if a "boxscore" fan thinks otherwise, then they should become a real fan to know that that is a very tough place to play, and that it was a good result for us.  

This is a serious question, that hopefully won't matter, but what are we judging Herdman on?  Do we expect qualification out of the Gold Cup groups?  Or do we expect nothing, and are looking to 2026?  

The interview can be heard here starting at around 29:30. The box score fan thing is the most annoying of several things and he uses it twice. To anyone that watched the game the more worrying thing was not the score but how poorly we played and the lack of tactical coherence. If he is using a poor pitch as an excuse wait until he plays at Azteca or in San Pedro Sula. 

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/sekeres-price-november-26-hour-2-1.1216561

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Herman's claim of the women is an outright lie.  He inherited a top class team (4th in the world) that had been put together by Even Pellerud.  It just happened that Carolina Morace temporarily screwed it up so it looked as Herdman's success, but all the credit goes to Pellerud.  Pellerud was an idiot as a person, but he knows the game.

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8 hours ago, Grizzly said:

The interview can be heard here starting at around 29:30. The box score fan thing is the most annoying of several things and he uses it twice. To anyone that watched the game the more worrying thing was not the score but how poorly we played and the lack of tactical coherence. If he is using a poor pitch as an excuse wait until he plays at Azteca or in San Pedro Sula. 

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/sekeres-price-november-26-hour-2-1.1216561

I watched the game twice. For sure there was a lack of cohesion. It was there for all to see. Perhaps that's what you saw as well, but personally, I wouldn't call that a lack of tactical coherence. They looked clear on how they wanted to play, so tactical things were seemingly coherent, but the execution was far from perfect, which is understandable (but disappointing nonetheless). 

It's easy to be critical and suggest the team should be playing more coherently, but I do wonder, how much of a factor the line up changes were?

Hutchinson, Piette came in for Osorio and Arfield. ZBG came in for Millar, and Tabla came in for David. Plus I believe Henry came in for James, so that's 6 changes, which is over half of the outfield players - of course cohesion is going to be a challenge. 

Yes, at least 4 of those changes didn't have to happen, but if we kept everything the same and only changed Hutchinson and piette for the unavailable Arfield and Osorio, some people would say "look, Herdman is wasting chances to cap players during this (supposedly) easy qualification process". 

All in all, I am just happy we got an away win in concacaf. My expectations for the March game will be much higher.

Edited by Obinna
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On 11/28/2018 at 8:16 AM, The Ref said:

Herman's claim of the women is an outright lie.  He inherited a top class team (4th in the world) that had been put together by Even Pellerud.  It just happened that Carolina Morace temporarily screwed it up so it looked as Herdman's success, but all the credit goes to Pellerud.  Pellerud was an idiot as a person, but he knows the game.

If you look at the ages of the players on the CWNT, you'll see a big hole around 28 years, right where the players are at prime age.  We had no talent coming up during Morace's term, because she didn't see it as her job to help with that.  Herdman worked hard to improve development of young talent, and we're seeing the results in the team now.  We're down to just a handful of players who were there with Pellerud.  Without Herdman fixing the assembly line of young talent, we would be in abysmal shape today, right out of the top ten in the world.  So, not only did he save the careers of the older talent that flamed out under Morace (many were ready to quit playing for the national team), he saved the program of today, as well.  I'm actually amazed that we are still keeping up our ranking without a core of players in their prime age.  I think he deserves way more credit than you're allowing.

I suspect it was his work on youth development that won over the CSA.  It's essentially what is needed on the men's side for the 2026 world cup.  Herdman looks at the big picture, identifies solutions, and works hard to implement them.  Someone like that running things is gold.  It is his administrative talent that makes him ideal for our situation.  I know many here are judging him solely on results in the upcoming tournaments, but I would guess that the CSA will be judging him more on whether the program as a whole is trending in the right direction, despite any near term results.

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