Ottawa CPL Club

[Vic]

4 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

My hope is that both the Fury and CONCACAF get together and let calmer heads prevail and allow the Fury one last season in the USL for 2019 and then they jump to the CanPL. I'm pretty sure that's the consensus of the majority as to how we'd like to see things go down. 

Friends look after friends and good things happen to good people. You don't end up in situations like this by accident, there's always a lot more behind the scenes than meets the eye. 

The best thing for the city is good people and CPL. If someone can't be that, better to find out early on than years down the road when you're screwed (or rather Melnyked, or Ballarded).

[juicy sushi]

12 hours ago, Kent said:

I just counted 17 non-Canadians (not counting Akinola). They would have to drop several of those players to meet whatever the domestic rules become. They would have to slash their player budget from $26 million down to something more like $1 million, which would have to include getting rid of Giovinco, Bradley, Altidore, Vazquez, probably even Osorio and many others. The rest of the team would have to take significant pay cuts to stay with the team. They also would be gone from MLS’ TV contracts and would have to hope that TSN or whoever picks up the CPL in order to maintain TV coverage which of course helps to drive interest in the team. So yeah, it’s possible TFC’s attendance might drop if they switched leagues.

Apologies if someone already addressed this, I am pages behind on this thread.

It’s a good reminder for those who forget.  

[Kent]

On 12/13/2018 at 5:16 PM, Bison44 said:

I have to point out some baloney in that Jacubek interview.  He says at the end of the interview the Fury had a record for playing the most canadians. Not sure what number he is quoting (maybe roster spots?) but TFC2,  playing in the same USL in the same year, had a higher % of CDN minutes (from Sandors power rankings).  Last year (2017) both VWC2 and TFC2 had more CDN content on the field than Ottawa.  Its great that Ottawa has been playing so many CDN (lately), but you cant have your own set of facts.  

I was skeptical about that line too, but I didn't even think of the reserve teams. I'm curious if anybody knows if there were ever any CSL teams that had more Canadians than Ottawa.

[Kent]

On 12/13/2018 at 6:45 PM, Dominic94 said:

in TFC 2’s case and TFC 3, well mostly the latter, there’s no d3 in Canada, so it makes sense to allow it and it’s a farm club. Second, for TFC 3, don’t they run the table in L1O ?

A few things to clear up. L1O is considered D3 in Canada. TFC 3 has played their last game in L1O (I'm not happy about that personally). And no, they don't run the table in L1O, although they did win the regular season in the first year in 2014.

2014 - 1st place
2015 - 5th place
2016 - 3rd in the West, 6th overall
2017 - 3rd in the West, 5th overall
2018 - 4th overall

[dyslexic nam]

10 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

My hope is that both the Fury and CONCACAF get together and let calmer heads prevail and allow the Fury one last season in the USL for 2019 and then they jump to the CanPL. I'm pretty sure that's the consensus of the majority as to how we'd like to see things go down. That said, with how hard both sides appear to be digging in, this doesn't strike me as bluster from either side.

Hope things work out for all you guys in Ottawa.

I understand this idea, and if that scenario came to pass and the Fury were in CPL in 2020 I agree that it would be a positive outcome long term.  But my preference in terms of an ideal outcome would be for COCNACAF to stick to their guns and for Ottawa to swallow its pride and go into CPL this year.  

Let's face it - there will be hurt feelings over how this went down this for a while.  Better, IMO, to tear the bandaid off and start getting everyone used to the new world order. I think delaying entry until next year will just drag out the acrimony for another year and we will just have to deal with all the anger next year.  Then again, maybe it is better to insulate CPL from that kind of controversy in its inaugural year.

[Winnipeg Fury]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

 Then again, maybe it is better to insulate CPL from that kind of controversy in its inaugural year.

 

This is what I think.  CPL opened the door, OSEG were not interested.  OSEG/Ottawa Fury spoke for years in regards to CPL launch.  It's not like the Fury were blindsided by CPL launch.

If OSEG and Ottawa Fury do not want to be part of CPL, then I have no problem with them being left out of our league.  There won't be a single Valour fan that is upset.  That doesn't mean I don't want Ottawa in CPL.  But I think OSEG have created a false narrative for their fans, that CPL are the villains.  We don't need their negative bs, CPL are on a positive roll.   Let them stay in USL.  

I don't think it's in the best of interest of Ottawa Fury fans, or their club, but that is their decision and they have made their choices.  Time for CPL to move forward.  Plenty of other enthusiastic markets hoping to be part of Canada's league.  Let's focus on cities/ownership groups that want to be part of our league

All the best to OSEG/Ottawa Fury in USL !

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

You had me right up until your last sentence.

[Winnipeg Fury]

17 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

You had me right up until your last sentence.

 

OSEG are brighter business people than you and I, surely.  Maybe they know something we don't.  Maybe they have inside information that CPL will fold by September.......?

From where I'm sitting on the Prairies, they have painted themselves into a corner.  In an effort to save face with their fans, they have spun a narrative to make CPL look like the bad guys.  How I have no idea......?  We asked them to join, they refused, end of story.   OSEG have said even with playing USL next season, they still won't play CPL in 2020 ("no deal").

So when CONCACAF follows the rules, as they have recently stated, that an exceptional circumstance for playing in another country does not exist, what are they going to do ?  Would it be a big victory for them by playing USL in 2019 ?  From where I am sitting it's a road to nowhere. 

They have needlessly burned bridges with CPL and Canadian fans from the get-go.  Apparently they feel that strongly about it.  From where I am sitting, those are needlessly counter-productive moves.  But it's their team, their business, and I wish them all the best in USL.

 

 

 

[Keegan]

Ultimately it's a fight over a market and that's why CPL can never be just "okay" with Ottawa in the USL.  They've already essentially written off the top 3 core markets in the country and now they're going to just give up the capital/one of the few "sure thing" cities we have left?  The US system leeching yet another market may just be too much for the league to handle in the short term, so it's kill or be killed.  OSEG is being foolish, it really is a road to nowhere for them.    

[Bison44]

The worst part is, I dont think the USL really give a R#ts ass whether Ottawa in there or not.  They dont seem to want to have any new CDN USL teams and there is plenty of team turnover already.   They wont even notice 1 more team leaving.  

[dyslexic nam]

31 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Ultimately it's a fight over a market and that's why CPL can never be just "okay" with Ottawa in the USL.  They've already essentially written off the top 3 core markets in the country and now they're going to just give up the capital/one of the few "sure thing" cities we have left?  The US system leeching yet another market may just be too much for the league to handle in the short term, so it's kill or be killed.  OSEG is being foolish, it really is a road to nowhere for them.    

This is precisely why I won't wish them all the best in USL.  My first choice, despite all the bullshit, it still to have the Fury come into the fold.  But if that absolutely isn't happening, then they can close shop to open the market (whether now or in 5 years) to a different CPL club.  The continued exclusion of that market from CPL is not an outcome I will get behind.  For me, in order of preference:

1. Fury in CPL
2. Non-Fury Ottawa team in CPL
3. Fury in USL
4. No team in Ottawa

I only support option 3 if the only other alternative is 4.

[gator]

35 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Ultimately it's a fight over a market and that's why CPL can never be just "okay" with Ottawa in the USL.  They've already essentially written off the top 3 core markets in the country and now they're going to just give up the capital/one of the few "sure thing" cities we have left?  The US system leeching yet another market may just be too much for the league to handle in the short term, so it's kill or be killed.  OSEG is being foolish, it really is a road to nowhere for them.    

When you put it that way I tend to agree, hopefully some CPL teams enter the big 3 markets and thrive, it really sucks to have a team in our nation's capital playing in an American league when there is something comparable domestically, I feel for the Fury fans but selfishly I want them in CPL now!

[Kent]

On 12/14/2018 at 2:43 PM, dyslexic nam said:

The CSA can't force a private business to play in the CPL.  What they could do, though, is precisely what CONCACAF did - deny them permission to play in an American league.  No one can force the Fury to play anywhere next year, but as things stand they have two options - play in CPL or fold (and I know they could pursue legal action, but that is why I said "as things stand").

I guess the third option could be to join the unsanctioned CSL

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

41 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

The worst part is, I dont think the USL really give a R#ts ass whether Ottawa in there or not.  They dont seem to want to have any new CDN USL teams and there is plenty of team turnover already.   They wont even notice 1 more team leaving.  

If they don't want Ottawa it would have been easy enough for USL and the USSF to fold to the pressure from Victor Montagliani. Think this whole episode shows that was always a myth. The USL hired Tony Waiters to facilitate Canadian expansion just before the CSA imposed the moratorium back in 2010 and groups in London, Victoria and Hamilton were said to be interested at the time. Hopefully CanPL will be worth the lost decade.

Edited December 16, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Initial B]

In my mind, I think the Fury/CPL conflict come down to three issues:

1. Money - The Fury must believe that it would be more expensive to play a team in the CPL than in the USL. The Fury know how much it will cost to travel to USL games and they only have to travel half the continent to do it. The distance from Ottawa to Florida is shorter than Ottawa to Winnipeg. there is probably fear among the Fury FO that Ottawa fans won't want to watch a lower quality of soccer than what they are used to, which would lead to cratering SSH sales and the eventual folding of the team. 
2. Quality - The Fury know where they stand in the pecking order in USL. Right now the CPL is an unknown quality as no team has kicked a ball. The Fury are probably worried that as currently constructed their team will completely dominate CPL teams, which means they've spent money they didn't have to. They also figure that if they are forced under a salary cap to release players, they will also lose paying customers that have come to expect a higher level of play, leading back to this being a money problem again.  
3. Stability - The CPL will need to get at least a season under their belts before the Fury should be forced to join the league. We've seen way too many Canadian Soccer leagues fold over the past 40 years and the PTSD among existing clubs is probably great. The USL has been around for 8 years and has the backing of MLS. I hope that Bob Young is in this for the long haul and willing to lose up to $100 Million like Lamar Hunt and Phil Anshutz did for the first 10 years of MLS. That will show prospective owners/clubs that CPL is here to stay and build confidence in the league.

I think both the Fury and the CPL should be given one year, to make their respective cases in league play. The key will be the Voyageurs Cup games between the Fury and CPL opponents. If it becomes obvious that the CPL teams are of a significantly lower quality than the Fury (ie. losing by 4+ goals), then we'll know the difference between the USL and CPL and based on the quality of play, the Fury could make a case to stay where they are. I think that's what Montagliani is most afraid of - if the Div 1 CPL proves to be of inferior quality than the Div 2 USL, then the ridicule and damage to the brand among the general public might make them lose interest, then revenue, then kill the league. 

If this all does go to the Arbitrator, I could see them upholding the rights of CONCACAF as the governing body to force the Fury to play in the CPL. However, I also see them ruling that CONCACAF will have to pay the Fury and USL a reimbursement fee to cover possible revenue losses caused by the switch, such as any broadcast payments, League withdrawal fees, etc, so the club doesn't go belly up.

 

[juicy sushi]

All of those things are valid points, but as a Fury fan who sat through last season, the level of play would need to be TFC2/Timbit League before Fury fans would consider it a downgrade and stop showing up.

Last year was some pretty poor stuff that wouldn’t be winning a comparison with a well-coached L1O team that had solid decision-making from players. 

[Bison44]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If they don't want Ottawa it would have been easy enough for USL and the USSF to fold to the pressure from Victor Montagliani. Think this whole episode shows that was always a myth. The USL hired Tony Waiters to facilitate Canadian expansion just before the CSA imposed the moratorium back in 2010 and groups in London, Victoria and Hamilton were said to be interested at the time. Hopefully CanPL will be worth the lost decade.

Hmmm, seems like the USL net gain about 3-5 teams every year even after they lose a few (7 expansion USL championship teams for 2019).  Plus they gained 4-5 new teams in the newly formed USL-1  I dont think they will hardly notice Ottawa staying or going, they didnt seem to care about Van or Montreal closing their USL teams.  They are a steam roller expanding across the USA.  

[SthMelbRed]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

I was skeptical about that line too, but I didn't even think of the reserve teams. I'm curious if anybody knows if there were ever any CSL teams that had more Canadians than Ottawa.

The CSL 86ers won 4 consecutive championships with Ivor Evans (Fiji) being the only non-Canadian player on the roster.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Haha. Carl Haworth and Chris Mannella will totally dominate. Good one.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, juicy sushi said:

Last year was some pretty poor stuff that wouldn’t be winning a comparison with a well-coached L1O team that had solid decision-making from players. 

I still remember AS Blainville bringing it to them on the 1st leg

[Keegan]

4 hours ago, juicy sushi said:

All of those things are valid points, but as a Fury fan who sat through last season, the level of play would need to be TFC2/Timbit League before Fury fans would consider it a downgrade and stop showing up.

Last year was some pretty poor stuff that wouldn’t be winning a comparison with a well-coached L1O team that had solid decision-making from players. 

This is exactly it.  I can’t see a CPL team doing any worse than Ottawa against TFC either tbh.  I really feel my theory about the loans from TFC/MTL makes sense because this can’t be about playing level, existing salaries, club progression or any of that .. those points are easily debunked.  It can’t be about fan support when a CPL side in Ottawa would more than likely get 1500+ SSHs.  It’s not about exposure when no one in Canada has heard of you anyway and you’re not on TV.  

[Initial B]

5 hours ago, juicy sushi said:

All of those things are valid points, but as a Fury fan who sat through last season, the level of play would need to be TFC2/Timbit League before Fury fans would consider it a downgrade and stop showing up.

Last year was some pretty poor stuff that wouldn’t be winning a comparison with a well-coached L1O team that had solid decision-making from players. 

Lol

Yeah, I was there, too. I told them I wasn't renewing based on that performance, especially after the last game where Crepeau made the initial stop only to have the rest of the defence ball-watch while the visiting forward tapped in the rebound. I'm waiting to see what "pleasurable style of play" the coach has promised to implement. The stats I gathered was that the Fury were second-last in the league in goals and last in the league in shots. They were also second last in number of passes and passing accuracy. They were 7th in red cards and top 10 in fouls conceded. Crepeau in net was the lone bright spot. The stats show a portrait of a team that lacked quality and was poorly disciplined. To me that falls on one of 4 things:

1. Dysfunctional Locker Room - seeing as they got rid of over half their squad, I'm guessing that was addressed in the off-season
2. Coach with a bad system - The coach said he didn't have the players to implement his desired style of play. You're supposed to give a coach three transfer windows to allow him to get the team he wants, so he's got this year and that's it. I expect him gone if he has another season like the last one.
3. The GM can't find the the players to fit the coach's system - I'm not sold on De Guzman's front office abilities. I have bad Mo Johnson vibes from his decisions. No way would I have given him a 3 year extension.
4. The ownership can't provide the funds for the GM to get the coach the players he needs - This one worries me the most as the Fury have always felt like the neglected step-child of OSEG that gets the scraps from the RedBlacks organization.

I'm of the opinion that the Fury next year probably will be a gong show. It might be for the best if they shutter for next season, and considering what that would do the the fan base, that's saying something.

[juicy sushi]

10 minutes ago, Initial B said:

Lol

Yeah, I was there, too. I told them I wasn't renewing based on that performance, especially after the last game where Crepeau made the initial stop only to have the rest of the defence ball-watch while the visiting forward tapped in the rebound. I'm waiting to see what "pleasurable style of play" the coach has promised to implement. The stats I gathered was that the Fury were second-last in the league in goals and last in the league in shots. They were also second last in number of passes and passing accuracy. They were 7th in red cards and top 10 in fouls conceded. Crepeau in net was the lone bright spot. The stats show a portrait of a team that lacked quality and was poorly disciplined. To me that falls on one of 4 things:

1. Dysfunctional Locker Room - seeing as they got rid of over half their squad, I'm guessing that was addressed in the off-season
2. Coach with a bad system - The coach said he didn't have the players to implement his desired style of play. You're supposed to give a coach three transfer windows to allow him to get the team he wants, so he's got this year and that's it. I expect him gone if he has another season like the last one.
3. The GM can't find the the players to fit the coach's system - I'm not sold on De Guzman's front office abilities. I have bad Mo Johnson vibes from his decisions. No way would I have given him a 3 year extension.
4. The ownership can't provide the funds for the GM to get the coach the players he needs - This one worries me the most as the Fury have always felt like the neglected step-child of OSEG that gets the scraps from the RedBlacks organization.

I'm of the opinion that the Fury next year probably will be a gong show. It might be for the best if they shutter for next season, and considering what that would do the the fan base, that's saying something.

Yeah, it was a team that didn’t function on pitch.  And like you, I have big concerns about the front office. 

I am not confident about the likelihood of an up-turn next year.  The best the club has ever been on the pitch was MdS’s 9-1-0 formation that bus-parked their way to an NASL final. 

[Kent]

21 hours ago, Initial B said:

The Fury are probably worried that as currently constructed their team will completely dominate CPL teams

This is the kind of thing that keeps team execs/staff up at night.

[Kent]

While we are speculating on things, I've got one that hasn't been mentioned yet. The reports of JDG slagging the league, telling players to not sign there, etc., got me to thinking. Clanachan has mentioned that there will be a salary cap for coaching staff that is separate from the players cap. I wonder if JDG's role is included in that cap. If so, maybe a move to CPL would mean a pay cut for him (and possibly the coaching staff as well). That would make more sense as a sticking point for them than the fact they can't pay their players as much in the CPL as they report they do in the USL.

Disclaimer, I do like JDG, loved him as a player, defended him while he was the whipping boy with TFC. I'm just trying to make sense of the situation, since I still don't understand the decision of the Fury to stay in USL.