Ottawa CPL Club

[juicy sushi]

8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The crazy thing is that it isn't all that crazy.  And throw in the fact that we know the MLS teams are now lobbying on behalf of the Fury (thanks Jakubec, from a messageboard moron) and it does seem like a pretty plausible explanation.

I dunno, this seems far too professional an idea for North American pro sports.  I could see this if TFC or Montreal maybe did all the thinking and gave the idea to OSEG (those two organizations are legitimately smart), but this seems to have too many moving parts to be an OSEG idea. 

[Keegan]

7 minutes ago, Cblake said:

But what happens if  as you said Ottawa could be working with TFC etc to get free players , the same thing could happen with The Reds and York 9? They could help out their old friend in Jimmy B with a handful of loans ie Daniels, Dunn, Hundal etc if they want them playing at a high level than the new USL D3 league where TFC2 is playing this year.

That would be great then.  My theory was that they’re avoiding this - I don’t think Jimmy B is an old friend they’re looking to help out (or anyone in CPL).  I’d bet they rather have their players play D3 than CPL but that’s just my theory.

If your question is “wouldn’t that make them a feeder club, the same as you’re criticizing Ottawa for being?” .  Yes, BUT the CPL teams can grow... the Fury have a ceiling over their head, they can’t qualify or promote to anything.. their best bet is to win a trophy in a 35 team shit show at which point they may qualify to drop the puck at a sens game. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Keegan

[Cblake]

Could the CSA force the Fury upon the CPL? I see some real differences and approach in these two organizations and some point could there be issues?

[Keegan]

2 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Could the CSA force the Fury upon the CPL? I see some real differences and approach in these two organizations and some point could there be issues?

No they can’t force them to do anything - they can “funnel them” there as CPL is the only option to be a pro team right now.

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Cblake said:

Could the CSA force the Fury upon the CPL? I see some real differences and approach in these two organizations and some point could there be issues?

The CSA can't force a private business to play in the CPL.  What they could do, though, is precisely what CONCACAF did - deny them permission to play in an American league.  No one can force the Fury to play anywhere next year, but as things stand they have two options - play in CPL or fold (and I know they could pursue legal action, but that is why I said "as things stand").

[Cblake]

2 minutes ago, Keegan said:

That would be great then.  My theory was that they’re avoiding this - I don’t think Jimmy B is an old friend they’re looking to help out (or anyone in CPL).  I’d bet they rather have their players play D3 than CPL but that’s just my theory.

In my eyes there is going to be a real difference between how the soccer types within MLS teams ie Bez and Vanney with TFC view the CPL differently than say those on the business side of things. From a player development standpoint  the CPL may be the better fit for some loans , hopefully as for the CPL's sake the level of play is higher than USL D3.

[dyslexic nam]

Interesting to go back to the start of this thread. 

 @Zem made the 2nd post in the thread (in October of 2017) and noted that "Ottawa knows the CSA's short-term plan with the CPL and semi-pro leagues is to get Canadian teams out of the American lower divisions, so I'd have to think they're planning to move eventually."  It would be interesting to reconstruct the public statements about this sort of thing to see how explicit the CSA has been on this issue. 

[Cblake]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The CSA can't force a private business to play in the CPL.  What they could do, though, is precisely what CONCACAF did - deny them permission to play in an American league.  No one can force the Fury to play anywhere next year, but as things stand they have two options - play in CPL or fold (and I know they could pursue legal action, but that is why I said "as things stand").

I meant could the CSA and Ottawa come to an agreement and thus force the CPL to take them for 2019? I guess what I am getting at , does the CSA have control/final over the CPL and what they do?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Cblake

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Cblake said:

In my eyes there is going to be a real difference between how the soccer types within MLS teams ie Bez and Vanney with TFC view the CPL differently than say those on the business side of things. From a player development standpoint  the CPL may be the better fit for some loans , hopefully as for the CPL's sake the level of play is higher than USL D3.

I may be overly conspiratorial, but I would be surprised if MLS did much to assist in the success of CPL.  Aside from the fact that they are just generally a rival league (in terms of competing for support) nothing made public so far has suggested any sort of amicable relationship.

 

4 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I meant could the CSA and Ottawa come to an agreement and thus force the CPL to take them for 2019? I guess what I am getting at , does the CSA have control/final over the CPL and what they do?

I suspect this wouldn't be needed.  If the Fury want in to CPL for 2019, I would hope that all parties involved would have the good sense to bury the hatchet and make it happen.  CPL will absolutely benefit from a presence in Ottawa, and aside from all the recent bullshit, the Fury still best positioned to fill that space IMO.

EDIT: sorry, to answer your question, I don't think the CSA has anything like that kind of control over the league.  It is a private venture, and while the CSA definitely has a role to play, I don't see how they could possibly dictate league business int he way you are asking.

Edited December 14, 2018 by dyslexic nam

[Keegan]

4 minutes ago, Cblake said:

In my eyes there is going to be a real difference between how the soccer types within MLS teams ie Bez and Vanney with TFC view the CPL differently than say those on the business side of things. From a player development standpoint  the CPL may be the better fit for some loans , hopefully as for the CPL's sake the level of play is higher than USL D3.

I think you’re giving them a lot more credit than is due for their prioritizing of development.. in TFC’s entire history there have only been a few loans of young players - they won’t mind skipping out on a development opportunity if daddy MLS tells them not to.  They won’t even give it a second thought.

14 minutes ago, juicy sushi said:

I dunno, this seems far too professional an idea for North American pro sports.  I could see this if TFC or Montreal maybe did all the thinking and gave the idea to OSEG (those two organizations are legitimately smart), but this seems to have too many moving parts to be an OSEG idea. 

I thought this up on my lunch - trust me, brilliant minds in these multi million corps can figure it out.  Especially when OSEG just came off a year of doing almost exactly that... it wouldn’t be hard to expand on. 

It’s not even a complicated plan or shell game.  It’s simple - we loan you players on the cheap so we avoid CPL, you avoid CPL to get superior players on the cheap.  Win-win. 

 

[Cblake]

2 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I think you’re giving them a lot more credit than is due for their prioritizing of development.. in TFC’s entire history there have only been a few loans of young players - they won’t mind skipping out on a development opportunity if daddy MLS tells them not to.  They won’t even give it a second thought.

I thought this up on my lunch - trust me, brilliant minds in these multi million corps can figure it out.  Especially when OSEG just came off a year of doing almost exactly that... it wouldn’t be hard to expand on. 

It’s not even a complicated plan or shell game.  It’s simple - we loan you players on the cheap so we avoid CPL, you avoid CPL to get superior players on the cheap.  Win-win. 

 

TFC has played a big part of in player development in this country, just look each time a youth national team is named , they always have a number of players, plus they amount of money that has been spent on the academy shows that. The CPL will benefit from this as we see every year players do wash out of their academy/USL team. Anyone who has been on TFC2 in my eyes would be a CPL target.

[Keegan]

5 minutes ago, Cblake said:

TFC has played a big part of in player development in this country, just look each time a youth national team is named , they always have a number of players, plus they amount of money that has been spent on the academy shows that. The CPL will benefit from this as we see every year players do wash out of their academy/USL team. Anyone who has been on TFC2 in my eyes would be a CPL target.

No arguing that but TFC has done it without CPL up until now - if they want to be hostile to CPL it will be VERY easy to avoid it.

It would be easy for them to send players to CPL but maybe they would rather do damage to the league.

Do I want that? No, but MLS calls the shots in that league not TFC. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Keegan

[MM3/MM2/MM]

11 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I may be overly conspiratorial, but I would be surprised if MLS did much to assist in the success of CPL.  Aside from the fact that they are just generally a rival league (in terms of competing for support) nothing made public so far has suggested any sort of amicable relationship.

 

 

While the MLS/NASL relationship would never be described as amicable, MLS teams did loan players to NASL and played them in exhibition games.

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, MM3/MM2/MM said:

While the MLS/NASL relationship would never be described as amicable, MLS teams did loan players to NASL and played them in exhibition games.

With the proliferation of D1 clubs in the US, I don't think NASL ever realistically posed a threat to MLS success.  I do think that CPL will reduce MLS support in this country.  I am a prime example of this.  I followed TFC since day 1 in MLS but due to the league's rules regarding Canadian players I have less loyalty to them than I do to other Canadian teams (including the Raps and the Leafs).  Once CPL gets up and running, I will not be doing much to support TFC.  I think TV viewership will drop and non-market merch sales will drop.

And going back to the original point, I don't think the idea is that no player will ever be loaned.  It is that no ongoing arrangement will be put in place which would substantially benefit and strengthen CPL.  That is the sort of thing I don't see happening.

[juicy sushi]

I think that if things are supposedly going to be this ‘political’ then everything becomes quite messy.  The MLS (USSF) and Liga MX want to do a tie up to dominate the major continental markets.  The three major Canadian markets are along for the ride (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal).  FIFA and CONCACAF have a clear desire to not allow this, for fear of the precedents that would be set elsewhere (UEFA Super League issues) 

Ottawa is the earliest skirmish in that, if one thinks that this is about those politics.  Personally, I don’t as Ottawa seem more selfish than smart.  

The only available option for CONCACAF seems to be avoiding creation of a precedent that can be used by MLS to create a continental league, while enabling the USSF to get the league it wants in another way.  

Ottawa seem to be a test case that neither side can afford to lose, in that scenario. But I don’t know how it gets fixed. 

I can offer what I would do, but that’s useless.

[juicy sushi]

16 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Do I want that? No, but MLS calls the shots in that league not TFC. 

Ok, this is true, but I feel it is important to note that MLSE has much more independence than most owners.  They have probably the second richest ownership in the league (beyond NYCFC), and the least alignment with USSF leadership.  If someone could show tomorrow that the ROI for ditching the MLS for another league was higher, they’d do it.  

[Keegan]

4 minutes ago, juicy sushi said:

Ok, this is true, but I feel it is important to note that MLSE has much more independence than most owners.  They have probably the second richest ownership in the league (beyond NYCFC), and the least alignment with USSF leadership.  If someone could show tomorrow that the ROI for ditching the MLS for another league was higher, they’d do it.  

TFC isn’t the darling they used to be with MLS.  There are a ton of other big clubs and all of them look to appease MLS at every turn.  If MLS tells them the strategy is to choke out CPL they would be foolish to step on toes over a loan or two for players who may never make their first team.  Let’s not forget MLS has the option to make up rules as they go along - do you want to ruin the chances of an admin call going your way? 

MLS is daddy and from a ROI perspective it’s probably not a good idea to cross them on trivial topics 

[Ansem]

56 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I meant could the CSA and Ottawa come to an agreement and thus force the CPL to take them for 2019? I guess what I am getting at , does the CSA have control/final over the CPL and what they do?

Looking at how NHL and any other leagues have operated in the past...pointing to the Blasillie case v. NHL

The league has the ultimate right to pick and choose it's owners.

CPL have the right to pass on OSEG in theory.

There's no denying that accepting OSEG would be the easiest thing to do. Question is... is it the smartest thing to do to accept a team that has no desire to be there and slandered you publically? Any idiot studying business 101 would say no.

The Fury said publicly that even if CONCACAF let's them play 2019, they'd refuse to join CPL To me that's having "delusion of grandeur". That's the kind of attitude that the big 3 would have and I'd be the first one to say : " Can't deny they have a point" but the Fury??? C'mon. They are still going at it with framing CPL in a negative way. I won't speculate what CPL will ultimately do with Ottawa but... what makes business sense is:

1. Internally "Fuck em"
2. Publicly "we have multiple bids for Ottawa and we'll choose the one that makes sense for CPL
3. Pick another ownership for 2021
4. Forcing the Fury to go to L1O (they won't) or to sit 2020 out
5. Which voids their exclusivity rights on soccer operations at TD Place, city would be seeking to fill those dates --> see Hamilton Tim Hortons Field v. Tiger-Cats, CSA had to step in to make sure no other soccer team could bid for those dates
6. New Ottawa ownership gets TD Place dates, city gets it's rent...Deal made
7. New Ottawa CPL team offers to buy the Fury from OSEG and rebrand or OSEG fold Fury and focus on CFL Operations

Sorry but name me a North American league that tolerates having owners that don't want to be there or aren't on the same page... (NASL?).

Expecting CPL to "deal with it" is possible but 50/50 at best

Edited December 14, 2018 by Ansem

[Keegan]

Another major issue has to be the name “Ottawa Fury”.  It doesn’t go with this league.. FC Edmonton was an exception because that name is a blank canvas.  Ottawa Fury would need a rebranding to join CPL IMO. 

[Cblake]

53 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Looking at how NHL and any other leagues have operated in the past...pointing to the Blasillie case v. NHL

The league has the ultimate right to pick and choose it's owners.

CPL have the right to pass on OSEG in theory.

There's no denying that accepting OSEG would be the easiest thing to do. Question is... is it the smartest thing to do to accept a team that has no desire to be there and slandered you publically? Any idiot studying business 101 would say no.

The Fury said publicly that even if CONCACAF let's them play 2019, they'd refuse to join CPL To me that's having "delusion of grandeur". That's the kind of attitude that the big 3 would have and I'd be the first one to say : " Can't deny they have a point" but the Fury??? C'mon. They are still going at it with framing CPL in a negative way. I won't speculate what CPL will ultimately do with Ottawa but... what makes business sense is:

1. Internally "Fuck em"
2. Publicly "we have multiple bids for Ottawa and we'll choose the one that makes sense for CPL
3. Pick another ownership for 2021
4. Forcing the Fury to go to L1O (they won't) or to sit 2020 out
5. Which voids their exclusivity rights on soccer operations at TD Place, city would be seeking to fill those dates --> see Hamilton Tim Hortons Field v. Tiger-Cats, CSA had to step in to make sure no other soccer team could bid for those dates
6. New Ottawa ownership gets TD Place dates, city gets it's rent...Deal made
7. New Ottawa CPL team offers to buy the Fury from OSEG and rebrand or OSEG fold Fury and focus on CFL Operations

Sorry but name me a North American league that tolerates having owners that don't want to be there or aren't on the same page... (NASL?).

Expecting CPL to "deal with it" is possible but 50/50 at best

Who has more power here I'm deciding what direction this goes, the CSA or CPL? At th end of the day the CSA is the regulatory body and has a major say in how things are done. Does that come to odds here. It would be hilarious to see the Fury go through the dog and pony show of getting OSA approval and playing a year in L1O just to maintain the soccer obligations for TD Place. It would be a joke if they took that course of action. 

[JamboAl]

46 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Looking at how NHL and any other leagues have operated in the past...pointing to the Blasillie case v. NHL

The league has the ultimate right to pick and choose it's owners.

CPL have the right to pass on OSEG in theory.

There's no denying that accepting OSEG would be the easiest thing to do. Question is... is it the smartest thing to do to accept a team that has no desire to be there and slandered you publically? Any idiot studying business 101 would say no.

The Fury said publicly that even if CONCACAF let's them play 2019, they'd refuse to join CPL To me that's having "delusion of grandeur". That's the kind of attitude that the big 3 would have and I'd be the first one to say : " Can't deny they have a point" but the Fury??? C'mon. They are still going at it with framing CPL in a negative way. I won't speculate what CPL will ultimately do with Ottawa but... what makes business sense is:

1. Internally "Fuck em"
2. Publicly "we have multiple bids for Ottawa and we'll choose the one that makes sense for CPL
3. Pick another ownership for 2021
4. Forcing the Fury to go to L1O (they won't) or to sit 2020 out
5. Which voids their exclusivity rights on soccer operations at TD Place, city would be seeking to fill those dates --> see Hamilton Tim Hortons Field v. Tiger-Cats, CSA had to step in to make sure no other soccer team could bid for those dates
6. New Ottawa ownership gets TD Place dates, city gets it's rent...Deal made
7. New Ottawa CPL team offers to buy the Fury from OSEG and rebrand or OSEG fold Fury and focus on CFL Operations

Sorry but name me a North American league that tolerates having owners that don't want to be there or aren't on the same page... (NASL?).

Expecting CPL to "deal with it" is possible but 50/50 at best

So there would be no professional soccer presence in the Nation’s Capital until 2021 because the CPL should be as pig headed as OSEG?  That’s an amazing strategy!

[baulderdash77]

Look we should all hope that the CSA, CPL and OSEG can make a deal.  Join the CPL in 2019 and grandfather any commitments.

Worst case petition for 2019 USL sanctioning with a hard cutover date of 2020.

Any type of subversion or games isn’t in anyone’s best interest.

[Ansem]

 

7 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

So there would be no professional soccer presence in the Nation’s Capital until 2021 because the CPL should be as pig headed as OSEG?  That’s an amazing strategy!

What's all about this nonsense I'm reading? People idealize, respects or love MLS. Ask yourself this, would MLS welcome an ownership group that doesn't want to be there and slandering it publicly? Did they cave to NY Cosmos nonesense or did they not tell them to F themselves and started NYCFC instead? I dont see you condemning their decision.

Why are you so surprised at the possibility that CPL would go the route all major leagues would go and deny them?

Sport business is a business...business is ruthless.

Why would you even want an ownership to be part of the league who clearly doesn't like it, doesn't believe in it and could start shit up from the inside? We dont want CSL 2.0

Let's not forget, sitting 2020 out would be the Fury doing it to themselves... so fuck em

Edited December 14, 2018 by Ansem

[Cblake]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

What's all about this nonsense I'm reading? People idealize, respects or love MLS. Ask yourself this, would MLS welcome an ownership group that doesn't want to be there and slandering it publicly? Did they cave to NY Cosmos nonesense or did they not tell them to F themselves and started NYCFC instead? I dont see you condemning their decision.

Why are you so surprised at the possibility that CPL would go the route all major leagues would go and deny them?

Sport business is a business...business is ruthless.

Why would you even want an ownership to be part of the league who clearly doesn't like it, doesn't believe in it and could start shit up from the inside? We dont want CSL 2.0

Let's not forget, sitting 2020 out would be the Fury doing it to themselves... so fuck em

At the end of the day I think we are going to saner heads prevail and a resolution acceptable to all will come to be. Regardless of who you think is right or wrong, you can't risk burning a market like Ottawa.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Cblake said:

At the end of the day I think we are going to saner heads prevail and a resolution acceptable to all will come to be. Regardless of who you think is right or wrong, you can't risk burning a market like Ottawa.

not burning Ottawa, just OSEG burning themselves and their fans

Should I do it "Simpsons" style?

-I don't want to play in CPL even if CONCACAF orders me too 

I can write it 100 times if you want. Don't expect the league to sit around waiting for OSEG to finally change their minds. If there's a window to grab that stadium for a new ownership, its business basic that you take it

Edited December 14, 2018 by Ansem