Ruffian Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 20 hours ago, Kent said: Yeah, at this point I am hoping TFC drop him after the season and he returns to the CPL. Other players in TFC's system better be paying attention to this kind of stuff too. Paying attention to what? That Toronto FC is giving their academy guys significantly more playing time than other Canadian MLS teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 33 minutes ago, Ruffian said: Paying attention to what? That Toronto FC is giving their academy guys significantly more playing time than other Canadian MLS teams? Pay attention to the fact that you can make a name for yourself in CPL. Dunn-Johnson signed with the TFC senior team in early 2018. Since then he has had 2 appearances for a total of 104 minutes at MLS level. In his one season in the CPL in that time frame he had 7 appearances with 630 minutes and he gained some fans because people could see his quality. It is always going to be a tough decision for this level of player, because they can make more money signing an MLS contract than they can with a CPL contract, but if it ultimately stalls their career it might not be the best option. Next step for CPL is to have some successful transfers out of the league to better leagues/higher pay. Waterman is an example of this, but if we can get more players to move up the ladder through CPL then more players will chose CPL in the first place. Ruffian, youllneverwalkalone and Bison44 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Ruffian said: Paying attention to what? That Toronto FC is giving their academy guys significantly more playing time than other Canadian MLS teams? While that may be true I think the point is relative to what they could have (or should have depending on your perspective) done. This is a line up composed purely of players who have had time in the academy or TFC2 and who have had at least a cup of coffee in MLS somewhere OTHER than Toronto, and this is only scratching the surface at most positions. Apart from keeper which is a real black hole, I would be confident to put this side up against most MLS opposition. Roberts Godinho Henry Dunn Morgan Kaye Fraser Teibert Edwards Babouli Pasher I think the argument is that by rights TFC should be fielding an almost entirely homegrown side by now and the fact that they aren’t is a condemnation of the pathway. It’s not the training or the talent otherwise this list of decent MLS/CPL/USL players wouldn’t be as long as it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC_Academy (Whoops. Babouli is the only one not to play elsewhere in MLS. I was trying to avoid the ones who were majority TFC players and nowhere else. Lots of other players you could sub in though, which was my main point) Edited August 30, 2021 by shorty TOcanadafan, Ruffian and Stryker911 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, Kent said: Pay attention to the fact that you can make a name for yourself in CPL. Dunn-Johnson signed with the TFC senior team in early 2018. Since then he has had 2 appearances for a total of 104 minutes at MLS level. In his one season in the CPL in that time frame he had 7 appearances with 630 minutes and he gained some fans because people could see his quality. It is always going to be a tough decision for this level of player, because they can make more money signing an MLS contract than they can with a CPL contract, but if it ultimately stalls their career it might not be the best option. Next step for CPL is to have some successful transfers out of the league to better leagues/higher pay. Waterman is an example of this, but if we can get more players to move up the ladder through CPL then more players will chose CPL in the first place. I think it will take a while for young players to choose CPL over MLS or a European League when they have those options. CPL needs to show that they can consistently move people on to better leagues. Young players still even bypass MLS because they believe joining a 2nd tier league in Europe gives them a better chance. I am not saying they can't or haven't but it takes a while to develop a reputation for it. shorty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ruffian said: CPL needs to show that they can consistently move people on to better leagues. I think you’re right and that was and is their intention, but they were thwarted by a) bad timing pandemic-wise and b) a crappy first flagship sell in the form of Borges. If Borges had been a raging success back in Belgium CPL brass would have been dancing jigs at the local Tim Hortons. It’s still the goal and as long as live play can survive a fourth wave (or more, knock on wood) it will come. (Coaches too. Fully expecting to lose Kah to the Whitecaps for next season.) When CPL does finally establish a player pipeline to Europe, then you’ll start to see players like Dunn take the pay hit short term for the chance to move on, rather than languish on the bench or in the stands for more money at TFC Edited August 30, 2021 by shorty Ruffian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, shorty said: I think the argument is that by rights TFC should be fielding an almost entirely homegrown side by now and the fact that they aren’t is a condemnation of the pathway. I agree they should have a lot more senior players developed through the academy, but to single out TFC this year when they have easily given the most minutes to U21 academy products out of any other Canadian MLS team or even CPL team seems odd. They are very close or potentially have already met the CPL requirement of 1,500 U-21 minutes. I hope every year they give this amount of time to their academy players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Yeah Ruffian, I get it. It’s just that you’re using the bar set by a fledgling 3-year old league to judge a pro academy program that’s had a decade or more to graduate players through to the first team. Whether or not they are better than Whitecaps or CFM is irrelevant. They should be using a higher bar in my opinion. It’s like three adults gloating that they got over 75% on their grade 5 times tables quiz. I re-read your post though and I take your point that TFC is not the only one that should be held to that higher bar. Apart from Davies and Adekugbe, though, I couldn’t see building as strong a lineup from Whitecap academy grads https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitecaps_FC_Academy Edited August 30, 2021 by shorty NVsoccer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 The only reason why I talk about TFC specifically rather than all 3 MLS teams generally is because I'm a TFC fan, so I watch their games and know their players. I don't know too much of what is going on with Montreal and Vancouver. narduch, Ruffian, johnyb and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic94 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I think other big worry now for TFC which is coming is look: David wouldn’t sign because he wanted Europe and didn’t see a pathway, Fraser left because he didn’t see a pathway… Looking at Nelsen, Rutty, Okello, Priso…. Dunn, Singh, Romeo…: if these guys don’t get a shot, will future top youth sign ? Atletico is in TFC’s backyard… they will be able to compete for any top youth player with a passport… Forge and York are there and York kinda stole Wright away and will play the kids… so at a point if TFC wants to actually have an academy it’s going to have to change something because they’re funding the development of youth players for the Can PL. Same deal with the Caps and looking at Colyn, Metcalfe, Pecile and Habbibullah to name a few, even Baldisimo….. also you would think Kadin Chung was worth of time over Godinho… these Can PL teams will sign and play their kids… so use it or lose it. Kent and narduch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 55 minutes ago, shorty said: I think the argument is that by rights TFC should be fielding an almost entirely homegrown side by now and the fact that they aren’t is a condemnation of the pathway. Nah. Aside from FC Dallas (or that one-off game Seattle had earlier this year), no team in MLS fields that many homegrowns at once, and I'm not sure any GM in the league will tell you they even want to get to that point. TFC should have developed more homegrowns into (at least) MLS regulars by now, but not being able to field an "almost entirely homegrown side by now" should not be why the pathway is condemned. As much as this board would love to see TFC field an entire XI of Canadians, it's simply not realistic in a global marketplace. It is weird, as @Ruffian points out, that the other two MLS teams get much more of a pass on this than TFC does. But that's Canada for you — Toronto will get shit on disproportionately no matter the subject. It is what it is. Dominic94, Corazon and Ruffian 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Kent said: Pay attention to the fact that you can make a name for yourself in CPL. Dunn-Johnson signed with the TFC senior team in early 2018. Since then he has had 2 appearances for a total of 104 minutes at MLS level. In his one season in the CPL in that time frame he had 7 appearances with 630 minutes and he gained some fans because people could see his quality. It is always going to be a tough decision for this level of player, because they can make more money signing an MLS contract than they can with a CPL contract, but if it ultimately stalls their career it might not be the best option. Next step for CPL is to have some successful transfers out of the league to better leagues/higher pay. Waterman is an example of this, but if we can get more players to move up the ladder through CPL then more players will chose CPL in the first place. I think with CPL increasing the cap as of 2022 - I'm hoping that clubs start to make good offers to guys like Dunn who have so much potential but are being held back or in USL limbo - soon MLS Next limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 37 minutes ago, Ansem said: I think with CPL increasing the cap as of 2022 - I'm hoping that clubs start to make good offers to guys like Dunn who have so much potential but are being held back or in USL limbo - soon MLS Next limbo. Has that been confirmed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, Ivan said: Has that been confirmed? Yes, the league confirmed that the cap was going up as of 2022 when they detailed their salary structure last year Ivan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Dunn did go the entire 90 minutes along side Singh without letting in a goal against the top team in USL1 this past Friday. narduch, Dominic94, johnyb and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison44 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 TFC gets a lot of stick because its fair to say they have the biggest (and probably best) pool of talent to draw from. In another thread there was some bragging about how so many pros were coming out of GTA, Brampton etc etc. I dont think anyone advocates TFC play 8 CDN and sit Poz,Soteldo,Mavinga,Lawerence etc etc. But it always seems like there are a couple poor bench players that get a lot of minutes that us TFC fans would rather seen given to the best prospects. I think sooner rather than later, there will be more kids coming out of TFC academy at 18 and seeing Dunns career and wondering if they wouldnt be better off signing with a CPL squad that will give them playing time ASAP. I actually watched that TFC2 game on youtube just to check whether Dunn had regressed, and he looked as good as Singh. Which tells me he could have gotten a game or two with the big club....or he should before the season is out. TFC2 actually looked pretty good against the best USL-1 team, with Rutty, Nelsen, Singh, Dunn all getting good run outs. Vaikala actually looks decent as well.. johnyb and Ruffian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bison44 said: Vaikala actually looks decent as well.. Is Vaikala even still eligible for Canada? Bison44 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison44 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I;m not sure with the ever changing standards....at least he is younger than Patterson-sewell, haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yomurphy1 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 54 minutes ago, Ruffian said: Is Vaikala even still eligible for Canada? Yep. Only played friendlies with Estonia. Ruffian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kacbru Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 5 hours ago, RS said: It is weird, as @Ruffian points out, that the other two MLS teams get much more of a pass on this than TFC does. But that's Canada for you — Toronto will get shit on disproportionately no matter the subject. It is what it is. Um... "Whitecaps hate Canada" would like to have a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinceA Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 3:25 PM, Dominic94 said: MTL is actually trying to develop though, they sent their guys right away. Choniere also got his chance too. Choniere isn't a CB, but I see what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic94 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 10 hours ago, RS said: Nah. Aside from FC Dallas (or that one-off game Seattle had earlier this year), no team in MLS fields that many homegrowns at once, and I'm not sure any GM in the league will tell you they even want to get to that point. TFC should have developed more homegrowns into (at least) MLS regulars by now, but not being able to field an "almost entirely homegrown side by now" should not be why the pathway is condemned. As much as this board would love to see TFC field an entire XI of Canadians, it's simply not realistic in a global marketplace. It is weird, as @Ruffian points out, that the other two MLS teams get much more of a pass on this than TFC does. But that's Canada for you — Toronto will get shit on disproportionately no matter the subject. It is what it is. I think the Union and Redbulls would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 20 hours ago, Ruffian said: Dunn did go the entire 90 minutes along side Singh without letting in a goal against the top team in USL1 this past Friday. FWIW that team (Charlotte?) was missing a lot of players due to travel restrictions so not as tough a test as it may seem. Ruffian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Dominic94 said: I think the Union and Redbulls would disagree. Perhaps they would. Different clubs have different goals and routes to reach them. While the Union, Red Bulls and FC Dallas would disagree, I'm curious if the Sounders, Crew, Timbers, Atlanta United, and Galaxy would as well. They've built their teams much more in line with TFC's, and represent the last near-decade of MLS Cup winners (along with Toronto, of course). I write all this noting that smart teams will be the ones who manage to best blend their academy players with the big-money first teamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic94 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Nothing to play for and he’s on the bench… they should just release him so he can find time elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dominic94 said: Nothing to play for and he’s on the bench… they should just release him so he can find time elsewhere. They have only 1 real CB starting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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