CPL new teams speculation

[toontownman]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

^  A Belgian-style blonde ale, eh?  Clearly a hint that young Belgian striker Charles De Ketelaere will soon be signing with the team.  You heard it here first!

Worth more than the CPL and L1 rosters combined!  Get it done Electric City. Show some damn ambition already!

[nighttrain]

sooooo, I had some spare time to dream about CPL and D2.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1SEWr-uN9NMcESTig7n20QNGfosgFwQ5Q&ll=51.984026252872226%2C-92.80460589097692&z=3

 

 

[chalms04]

13 hours ago, nighttrain said:

sooooo, I had some spare time to dream about CPL and D2.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1SEWr-uN9NMcESTig7n20QNGfosgFwQ5Q&ll=51.984026252872226%2C-92.80460589097692&z=3

 

 

Poor TBay

[Mikmacdo]

20 hours ago, nighttrain said:

sooooo, I had some spare time to dream about CPL and D2.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1SEWr-uN9NMcESTig7n20QNGfosgFwQ5Q&ll=51.984026252872226%2C-92.80460589097692&z=3

 

 

ITs York United not York 9 and how did you forget Peterborough who are probably closer to anyone but Vancouver as far as joining the league. 

[Cblake]

1 hour ago, Mikmacdo said:

ITs York United not York 9 and how did you forget Peterborough who are probably closer to anyone but Vancouver as far as joining the league. 

Electric City is doing everything to show they are keeping one eye on making the jump to CPL down the line. They are one very ambitious club with their player signings, have had regular coverage in the Peterborough Examiner etc. Excited to see how it works out but it is looking good so far. 

[Kingston]

13 hours ago, Cblake said:

Electric City is doing everything to show they are keeping one eye on making the jump to CPL down the line. They are one very ambitious club with their player signings, have had regular coverage in the Peterborough Examiner etc. Excited to see how it works out but it is looking good so far. 

I don't question their ambition but we're talking about a city with a metro population of 130 000.  In a good year they manage to break 3000 average attendance for their long-established hockey team.  That's actually quite impressive but it's about half of what we've been told a CPL team needs to be viable.  I just don't see it.  More realistic is that they become the darling of L1O.

[mtlsab]

6 hours ago, Kingston said:

I don't question their ambition but we're talking about a city with a metro population of 130 000.  In a good year they manage to break 3000 average attendance for their long-established hockey team.  That's actually quite impressive but it's about half of what we've been told a CPL team needs to be viable.  I just don't see it.  More realistic is that they become the darling of L1O.

Thats why we need a D2

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, mtlsab said:

Thats why we need a D2

Or we let the D3 leagues get even stronger, and start to let more of them in to the Voyageurs Cup.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, mtlsab said:

Thats why we need a D2

It depends on what you mean by D2.

The CPL has so far discussed D2 as a national league operating below D1 and having pro/rel with D1.  For the foreseeable future, this is not going to happen.  The D1 teams themselves aren't yet financially viable for a national level league and there certainly isn't room to operate at a national level below them.  I also question whether there are enough markets that can support national level attendance to fill two leagues.

If D2 means a number of regional leagues with lower requirements, then this could eventually happen.  That is pretty much what L1O's Premiere Division is meant to become for Ontario.  So if, in the future, the D3 leagues organically split into D2 (low level pro) and D3 (what we have now) components, that could work. 

[toontownman]

We need a D3/L1's across the country, once we have the base we can build an East and West D2. Clubs with grow into it organically. I know there are clubs that exist or ambitious owners that want D2 already and want that next step but we don't want to put the cart before the horse imo. 

Get a Prairie L1/D3 going for a year or two with more clubs willing to join that then take the cream of the crop from BC, Ontario the Prairies, hopefully more L1's and start the D2 then.  Rushing in won't help in this smucks unqualified opinion at least. 

[Cblake]

11 hours ago, Kingston said:

I don't question their ambition but we're talking about a city with a metro population of 130 000.  In a good year they manage to break 3000 average attendance for their long-established hockey team.  That's actually quite impressive but it's about half of what we've been told a CPL team needs to be viable.  I just don't see it.  More realistic is that they become the darling of L1O.

Barrie with Simcoe Rovers is another mid sized city that is keeping an eye on CPL. To be it is all about engagement and we will have a better idea on that after year 1. I just think its promising.  

[toontownman]

If Windsor get a team is it likely people from Detroit would cross the border and watch.  Is that common? I imagine people work across the boarder etc.? 

They have a USL team so it's  unlikely but maybe some hardcore soccer fans would support both?

[ted]

35 minutes ago, toontownman said:

If Windsor get a team is it likely people from Detroit would cross the border and watch.  Is that common? I imagine people work across the boarder etc.? 

They have a USL team so it's  unlikely but maybe some hardcore soccer fans would support both?

So unlikely as to be practically unimaginable. Do Windsor residents, "cross the border and watch" on a regular basis?!?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, ted said:

So unlikely as to be practically unimaginable. Do Windsor residents, "cross the border and watch" on a regular basis?!?

They do tend to follow and actively support Detroit sports teams from what I've heard over the years. That starts happening to a minor extent in the London area (mainly with the Tigers) and gets a lot stronger as you head southwest. People from the immediate Windsor area often even have an American Midwest accent rather than a typical Ontario one.

[gigi riva]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, nighttrain said:

sooooo, I had some spare time to dream about CPL and D2.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1SEWr-uN9NMcESTig7n20QNGfosgFwQ5Q&ll=51.984026252872226%2C-92.80460589097692&z=3

 

 

No Guelph c mon

[mtlsab]

I dont see any D3 happening outside of Quebec, Ontario, BC and Alberta. 

With the projected travel expenses for Prairies or Atlantic, it may be closer to a D2 budget. 

Some markets arent ready for D1 yet but the gap with D3 is too big. The D2 may also be usefull for any projected expansion project like Saskatoon and Windsor. CanPL may start thinkin about D2 since the D1 requirements are too big for clubs starting from scratch or playin in D3.

CSB should start being realistic, the requirements for CanPL are high (which is normal for a D1 standard) and there should be an alternative solution (D2) to scale up and test the market. 

 

Like I've said many times, we can easily start a D2 with 12-18 teams (4-6 clubs East, Center, West), we already have Thunder Bay and FC Manitoba playin with long trips in USL L2, we have Calgary Foothills and Edmonton Scottish that are ambitious but not gonna play in CanPL any soon, we have Simcoe and Electric City ambitious in D3, we have 3 projected expansions (Vancouver, Saskatoon, Windsor) that may test their current markets, we've got Victoria Highlanders and TSS Rovers that used to play in USL L2, we may have some clbus willing to put their reserve team (HFX Wanderers, CF Montreal) and some potential owners willing to test their market (Quebec City, Moncton, St John's)
 

If we would start in 2023,we could have:

West:
Fraser Valley (future expansion)

Calgary Foothills

Edmonton Scottish

Saskatoon (future expansion)

 

Center:
FC Manitoba

Thunder Bay Chill

Windsor (future expansion)

Electric City

Simcoe Rovers

 

East:
HFX Wanderers 2

CF Montréal 2

Quebec City

Moncton

[toontownman]

11 hours ago, ted said:

So unlikely as to be practically unimaginable. Do Windsor residents, "cross the border and watch" on a regular basis?!?

Yeah I have literally no idea, hence asking, I don't second guess the stupid thoughts that come into my head any more

I know people in Manitoba close to the border that always border hop for shopping trips/events at weekends. For Windsor/Detroit it is 10 minutes travel in between both cities using the tunnel, you don't even need your passport to get in and many people live in one country and work in the other city. While a Windsor team and the Detroit team could be considered local rivals they will likely never likely play each other (although Pre-season makes sense). It is essentially another local team for people in Detroit to follow if they want, good question on whether people in Windsor follow the Detroit FC team, maybe? The situation is not too far removed from TFC fans also supporting Forge or York, except they are in different leagues entirely, which makes it even more plausible. Can imagine it would give young players from either side more pathways which is neat.  

I could just imagine some hardcore soccer fans supporting both teams 🤷‍♂️

[Trois Reds]

6 hours ago, mtlsab said:

I dont see any D3 happening outside of Quebec, Ontario, BC and Alberta. 

With the projected travel expenses for Prairies or Atlantic, it may be closer to a D2 budget. 

Some markets arent ready for D1 yet but the gap with D3 is too big. The D2 may also be usefull for any projected expansion project like Saskatoon and Windsor. CanPL may start thinkin about D2 since the D1 requirements are too big for clubs starting from scratch or playin in D3.

CSB should start being realistic, the requirements for CanPL are high (which is normal for a D1 standard) and there should be an alternative solution (D2) to scale up and test the market. 

 

Like I've said many times, we can easily start a D2 with 12-18 teams (4-6 clubs East, Center, West), we already have Thunder Bay and FC Manitoba playin with long trips in USL L2, we have Calgary Foothills and Edmonton Scottish that are ambitious but not gonna play in CanPL any soon, we have Simcoe and Electric City ambitious in D3, we have 3 projected expansions (Vancouver, Saskatoon, Windsor) that may test their current markets, we've got Victoria Highlanders and TSS Rovers that used to play in USL L2, we may have some clbus willing to put their reserve team (HFX Wanderers, CF Montreal) and some potential owners willing to test their market (Quebec City, Moncton, St John's)
 

If we would start in 2023,we could have:

West:
Fraser Valley (future expansion)

Calgary Foothills

Edmonton Scottish

Saskatoon (future expansion)

 

Center:
FC Manitoba

Thunder Bay Chill

Windsor (future expansion)

Electric City

Simcoe Rovers

 

East:
HFX Wanderers 2

CF Montréal 2

Quebec City

Moncton

This might seem like nitpicking, but it's actually easier to drive to Calgary and Edmonton from Thunder Bay and Manitoba than it is to Windsor or even Barrie.  It would be easier for teams there to stay in the west, driving-wise, even if BC would be an issue for them.  I do like where you're going with this, though.

[mtlsab]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:04 PM, Trois Reds said:

This might seem like nitpicking, but it's actually easier to drive to Calgary and Edmonton from Thunder Bay and Manitoba than it is to Windsor or even Barrie.  It would be easier for teams there to stay in the west, driving-wise, even if BC would be an issue for them.  I do like where you're going with this, though.

I was assuming D1 would be always with flight travel, D3 drivable distance and D2 a mix of the both

Edited March 14, 2022 by mtlsab

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:04 PM, Trois Reds said:

This might seem like nitpicking, but it's actually easier to drive to Calgary and Edmonton from Thunder Bay and Manitoba than it is to Windsor or even Barrie.  It would be easier for teams there to stay in the west, driving-wise, even if BC would be an issue for them.  I do like where you're going with this, though.

If you look at the Thunder Bay Chill travel schedule over the years, it took them to Des Moines and Chicago, Kansas City, those were not short trips. I don't think they were flying either. Short PDL season, similar to our League Ones. 

This season they play away to Peoria which is further than Chicago, 11+ hours on the road; they play Des Moines at 12 hours drive, St Croix in Minnesota is 5 hours away (they are in a USL 2 division also with Manitoba and Winnipeg Lions, that is a 7-hour drive.)

T-Bay to Edmonton is almost a day's drive, longer than any previous Chill travel in PDL or USL2,  it would not be reasonable. 

[Trois Reds]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If you look at the Thunder Bay Chill travel schedule over the years, it took them to Des Moines and Chicago, Kansas City, those were not short trips. I don't think they were flying either. Short PDL season, similar to our League Ones. 

This season they play away to Peoria which is further than Chicago, 11+ hours on the road; they play Des Moines at 12 hours drive, St Croix in Minnesota is 5 hours away (they are in a USL 2 division also with Manitoba and Winnipeg Lions, that is a 7-hour drive.)

T-Bay to Edmonton is almost a day's drive, longer than any previous Chill travel in PDL or USL2,  it would not be reasonable. 

Agreed, but T-Bay to Southern Ontario is also a day's drive, especially going around the Great Lakes or having to go through the U.S.  I have done the drive.  It's 23 hours from Toronto to Thunder Bay, 21 hours from T-Bay to Calgary.  Putting them in Ontario against Barrie and Windsor would be just as hard as having them in the west.  Winnipeg would be the closest major Canadian city to where the Chill are, followed by Saskatoon and Regina. Obviously, I'm leaving out Sudbury and the Soo in this scenario.

@mtlsab, you're right that it would need a mixture of both flights and driving for D2. A smaller population spread out over such a large country isn't ideal.  I would love to see a team in Thunder Bay, though.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Trois Reds

[Cblake]

There unfortunately is no economic case for D2 at this point in time. You have the CPL and then the provincial D3 leagues. There is not a big enough gap between them to add in another level. For example L1O has ambitious teams like Electric City, Simcoe County that have been spending money to sign players with an eventual eye towards CPL. Also in 2024 when the tiers ofL1O are established including the 12 team top flight will there be a desire for a D2 setup, I am simply not sure. You either want to be a regionalized bus league or a pro league on a national scale like the CPL is. I simply do not see that in between level at this point. It would simply be too similar to what the provincial D3 leagues are. 

[DrFitzpatrick]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:45 PM, toontownman said:

If Windsor get a team is it likely people from Detroit would cross the border and watch.  Is that common? I imagine people work across the boarder etc.? 

They have a USL team so it's  unlikely but maybe some hardcore soccer fans would support both?

People from Windsor definitely support Detroit teams in high numbers but it won't work the other way around.

[ted]

2 hours ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

People from Windsor definitely support Detroit teams in high numbers but it won't work the other way around.

Yup. Out here the US/Canada border is super busy on days the Seattle Seahawks play but I doubt anyone in Seattle knows who the BC Lions are.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, ted said:

Yup. Out here the US/Canada border is super busy on days the Seattle Seahawks play but I doubt anyone in Seattle knows who the BC Lions are.

But you would get Seattle hockey fans coming up for Canucks games before the Kraken came to town. I think that kind of cross border support works for big leagues but not for minor ones.