Scott Arfield

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'm tired of this thread, or more like, it bores the living f out of me. 

But it does remind me of what other major footballing nations do when a key player gets left off. I recall the whole business of Raúl not being in the Spain WC team in South Africa, that was the cause of scores of headlines, especially in the Madrid press, opinion pieces. In fact, Aragonés left him out of the Eurocup winning squad in 2008, when he was still active and scoring at Real Madrid.

It is not unusual for fans and press to spend more time on who isn't there than who is. But it is also common for the argument to be silenced--and with it a lot of mouths--when the team decides to perform perfectly fine without the player that got away.

[Califax]

22 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This World Cup isn’t the important one - 2026 is.

I wish people would stop saying this. It's false. If we don't win a game, or score a goal, or generally look poor, it sets us back. 

They're both important. They're both different. 

The World Cup doesn't set up the youth movement, the next four years do that. 

[dyslexic nam]

28 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

A couple thoughts:

1) I don't feel sorry for Herdman.  I would just find the whole line of questioning tedious were I in his shoes.  "Why haven't you brought Scott Arfield back?" the answer to that question is: "He retired from international football."  What more does he need to say?  Next question.

2) Your formation above is a 4-3-3.  To me, that is dangerous when going against the firepower that Belgium and Croatia have.  I've already talked about my thoughts on Arfield's defensive acumen so I won't get into that again, but going 4-3-3 means that you will probably have to give Tajon or Davies increased defensive responsibilities which limits their counter-attacking potential.  Either that or run them ragged which is not an ideal strategy for a short tournament where our games get (theoretically) easier and more winnable as we go.

3) The only real area where I think Arfield might help would be in the situation @Cheeta laid out above where we hit the 75' minute and we're going for it.  In that case I could see him being useful.  More useful than Hoilett or Ugbo or Osorio or Larin?  Jury's still out, but he would definitely be an option.

4) The first step in any sort of Arfield comeback would be for Scott to reach out to John and say "If there's a place for me, I'd love to be considered."  Has he done that?  There would be a question for Arfield to answer because if he hasn't then it's on him.  He retired.  If he wants back, then he has to make the first move.  Our coach should not be begging players to play for Canada.  Now, if he has done that and Herdman's ignored his calls, that is worth discussing.  However, if he hasn't done that and is trying to leverage a TV appearance to do that, that is gross.  I think if it was any other player doing that, many more around here would find it as gross as I do.  But it's all conjecture.  I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'm just a guy who doesn't think the grass is always greener.

The thing for me is that we don’t know who has said what because it was never really explored or explained.  Has Scotty reached out?  No idea.  Has he ever indicated any sort of interest to Herdman? Not sure.  I do know that he left the door open with his recent comments and was very complimentary of Herdman in those segments.  That seems like a bit of an olive branch to me.   But if he has never once said anything to Herdman then it sort of explains/resolves the situation.

To be clear, I am not in favour of interrogating Herdman.   But a couple of clear, direct questions would put things to rest.  

- “Given the current midfield situation, would you consider taking Arfield to Qatar if he wanted to come out of retirement for that tournament?”

- “If so, what would it take from Scott to make this happen?   And if not, what are the barriers?”

That isn’t an airing of dirty laundry or a veiled accusation - it is just seeking the clarity that would put things to bed.   People might not like the answers but it would at least resolve some of the big questions   If Herdman is only prepared to play with the guys that got us there (or were willing to get us there) then it is on him if our midfield crashes and burns at the WC in a way that Arfield likely could have assisted with.   If he says that Scotty would be welcomed back if he unretired, then we would know that the ball is squarely in Arfield’s court.  None of those questions are (IMO) offside or accusatory - they are just seeking clarity in the way that media should when there are significant unresolved questions.  If this was the national hockey team or the Leafs, you can be damn sure that the media would be hunting for answers.    
 

18 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I’ve been pushing for Arfield back but I’ve thought deeper about this and I’m absolutely convinced he should be shut out.

Herdman needs to make an example of him for the sake of this program. Following this World Cup the importance of games will significantly drop until 2026. We’ll be relying on friendlies, nations league and gold cup matches for 3.5 years. 
 

This World Cup isn’t the important one - 2026 is. So if Herdman lets Arfield back in it sends a message to all our players (especially our stars) that they can leave the team for a few years and be conveniently welcomed back when it suits them. 
 

Imagine this happens with Davies or David? It makes it even worse that he was named captain and then did this. We simply cannot afford this and he needs to be let go. 

 

Disagree with most of this.  This WC isn’t important?   That is a ridiculous take.  Some of us pretended that it wasn’t super important when we were 99% unlikely to be playing in it but the reality is that it is massively important.  Aside from being huge in its own right as the pinnacle tournament in global footy, this is also a chance to substantially grow the domestic fan base well in advance of 2026.  We can hit the ground running on those preparations if the public is already on board and demanding results.   But mainly it is a chance to test ourselves among the best teams in the world.  The WC isn’t a means to an end - every tournament is an end goal and we are there.   Let’s enjoy it.

As for making an example of him, I will echo what others have said: he had some unique personal circumstances that influenced his decision.   Not sure who here has a wife and kids but it is a vastly different mindset than being single and carefree.   It comes with life altering responsibility.  If Scott and/or his wife felt that he shouldn’t be going to unsafe environments (like Haiti where a team was held at gunpoint) or traveling during the height of COVID, I sort of get it.  Not that I like it - I would still strongly prefer all players to be all in. But I get it.  And I don’t think “making an example” of him would really achieve anything because his circumstances were pretty unique.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm tired of this thread, or more like, it bores the living f out of me. 

But it does remind me of what other major footballing nations do when a key player gets left off. I recall the whole business of Raúl not being in the Spain WC team in South Africa, that was the cause of scores of headlines, especially in the Madrid press, opinion pieces. In fact, Aragonés left him out of the Eurocup winning squad in 2008, when he was still active and scoring at Real Madrid.

It is not unusual for fans and press to spend more time on who isn't there than who is. But it is also common for the argument to be silenced--and with it a lot of mouths--when the team decides to perform perfectly fine without the player that got away.

Most people don't open and then post on threads that bore them.  It is obviously of interest to CMNT supporters and some have strong feelings either way.

 

On your last point.  Doing "percently fine" in CONCACAF qualifying is very different from the huge leap that will be the World Cup.  We are looking at everything from anywhere to up our game.

I doubt Arfield is coming back and I don't know if he would be a net postive for the team.  I can see positives and needs on the pitch but don't know the facts about what else is in play.  But we must be looking to improve and there is a possiblity he might provide a bit of that. So that's why I and I guess other people care. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[dyslexic nam]

The last thing I will say on this (yeah right) is that it isn’t just about a few soccer nerds fapping in an online forum.  I doubt KJ put Arfield in his list of possibilities as some winking inside joke to the 12 of us here that give a shit.  This is a legitimate question with implications for how we will perform in Qatar.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

World Cup isn’t the important one - 2026 is. So if Herdman lets Arfield back in it sends a message to all our players (especially our stars) that they can leave the team for a few years and be conveniently welcomed back when it suits them. 

I disagree.  It was very important to me and to I think the psyche of Canadian soccer support that we got to a World Cup on merit before really hopefully growing the sport in the next 4 years and beyond. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Most people don't open and then post on threads that bore them.  It is obviously of interest to CMNT supporters and some have strong feelings either way.

 

On your last point.  Doing "percently fine" in CONCACAF qualifying is very different from the huge leap that will be the World Cup.  We are looking at everything from anywhere to up our game.

I doubt Arfield is coming back and I don't know if he would be a net postive for the team.  I can see positives and needs on the pitch but don't know the facts about what else is in play.  But we must be looking to improve and there is a possiblity he might provide a bit of that. So that's why I and I guess other people care. 

Keep obsessing, have fun with that.

For me, caring more about what you don't have than what you do is disrespectful to the roster in many ways. We got to the WC for the first time in 40 years, winning Concacaf, and folks are obsessing with a player who contributed nothing, and with tactics that contributed nothing. Let's get all wound up about the nothings and ignore the somethings. 

Arfield is dead to Canada, that was his choice and it was clear by late last January. The fact that he is on the broadcasts doing commentary is a clear sign that he has made his choice and moved on. 

Don't get me wrong, I think he's no question amongst our best 14 and in our best 4 midfield, but I've moved on, and so have most fans. 

For me, as a Canada fan, the fact that this thread is hot and being flogged by Canada fans is an embarrassment.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

Since we are all wildly speculating. Maybe Arfield is an anti vaxxer?

And now that Qatar has confirmed you don't need to be vaccinated to enter the country during the World Cup, the door is open for his return

[El Hombre]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

To be clear, I am not in favour of interrogating Herdman.   But a couple of clear, direct questions would put things to rest.  

- “Given the current midfield situation, would you consider taking Arfield to Qatar if he wanted to come out of retirement for that tournament?”

- “If so, what would it take from Scott to make this happen?   And if not, what are the barriers?”

Yeah, I'm fine with that.  However (I'm sure you figured that was coming), why couldn't the same questions be asked of Arfield?  "Have you reached out to John Herdman to tell him you are no longer retired from international football and want to be considered?"

KJ had him there and lofted up softballs.  And a lot of people are fine with that but want Herdman held to a higher standard.  It seems like we treat those people that are a part of our program harsher than we treat those that aren't.

For me, everything is in Arfield's court right now because the last action (retiring) was taken by him.

[Califax]

5 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

For me, everything is in Arfield's court right now because the last action (retiring) was taken by him.

the words were his, but what if...

Edited September 29, 2022 by Califax
this one was specifically for Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Keep obsessing, have fun with that.

For me, caring more about what you don't have than what you do is disrespectful to the roster in many ways. We got to the WC for the first time in 40 years, winning Concacaf, and folks are obsessing with a player who contributed nothing, and with tactics that contributed nothing. Let's get all wound up about the nothings and ignore the somethings. 

Arfield is dead to Canada, that was his choice and it was clear by late last January. The fact that he is on the broadcasts doing commentary is a clear sign that he has made his choice and moved on. 

Don't get me wrong, I think he's no question amongst our best 14 and in our best 4 midfield, but I've moved on, and so have most fans. 

Agree to disagree, mate.  If you want to continue talking about the qualification laurels, instead of what we can improve in less than 2 months, that is an option.

I would add, if I had moved on, I would not have opened the thread.  But it is great we have so many different kinds of supporters. 

[dyslexic nam]

13 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Yeah, I'm fine with that.  However (I'm sure you figured that was coming), why couldn't the same questions be asked of Arfield?  "Have you reached out to John Herdman to tell him you are no longer retired from international football and want to be considered?"

KJ had him there and lofted up softballs.  And a lot of people are fine with that but want Herdman held to a higher standard.  It seems like we treat those people that are a part of our program harsher than we treat those that aren't.

For me, everything is in Arfield's court right now because the last action (retiring) was taken by him.

I do agree with that.  He should have been questioned more directly as well.  

- “If John Herdman indicated that there was a spot on the squad available for you, would you want to rejoin the team to play in Qatar?”

My initial focus on Herdman isn’t about assigning him responsibility for the present situation - at least the initial event is on Scotty.  But Herdman is the head of our program so I think there is a greater level of media access and a greater expectation of accountability (especially to the media) than with any single player.  

But yes, I think KJ missed a golden opportunity to add clarity to the present situation by not being a bit more direct with Scotty.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I do agree with that.  He should have been questioned more directly as well.  

- “If John Herdman indicated that there was a spot on the squad available for you, would you want to rejoin the team to play in Qatar?”

My initial focus on Herdman isn’t about assigning him responsibility for the present situation - at least the initial event is on Scotty.  But Herdman is the head of our program so I think there is a greater level of media access and a greater expectation of accountability (especially to the media) than with any single player.  

But yes, I think KJ missed a golden opportunity to add clarity to the present situation by not being a bit more direct with Scotty.  

Always the tight rope an interviewer walks (disclaimer - I only wrote for a tiny newspaper in a small town many years ago) did you promise not to ask certain things to get the interview or does a revelation outweigh never getting the interviewee back or at least straining a relationship.

Of course, for us the viewer/reader/listener the answer is clear. 

[SpursFlu]

I think it would be amazing if Arfield got back in involved. It would really bolster our chances of getting out of the group. Was really happy to hear the door isn't completely shut. If he has to cone to Canada at some point there is no issue there anymore. I've got my fingers crossed 

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Always the tight rope an interviewer walks (disclaimer - I only wrote for a tiny newspaper in a small town many years ago) did you promise not to ask certain things to get the interview or does a revelation outweigh never getting the interviewee back or at least straining a relationship.

Of course, for us the viewer/reader/listener the answer is clear. 

For sure - I assume it was pre agreed that there would be boundaries in those segments, otherwise I am sure KJ would have asked him the obvious questions.  Which makes it all the more opaque to folks seeking clarity.   It is also why I think the questions could more realistically be put to Herdman - as the program head he has a bit more of an obligation to respond to the media because providing access is more of a duty than a favour.   

[mpg_29]

Barring multiple midfielders being out due to injuries I don't see Arfield getting called up. And even then there are players who were on the WCQ rosters that would likely be called in before him.

My impression is that the decision on Arfield's playing days for the national team was essentially made last spring during the initial world cup qualifiers when he likely rejected a call up because minnows or something. We've had the Gold Cup and the most important WCQ cycle in forever. We had almost 30 games in the last year and half and Arfield has not been on the roster once. The WC is in less than two months with no camps left(other than the potential MLS one). 

People need to learn to "read the room" on this.

[El Hombre]

Can't wait to re-hash all this in mid-November when the squad actually drops.

Maybe when that happens we all get on a Zoom call and settle this with a good, ol'-fashioned 90 minute yelling match.  My fingers are tired of typing.

[Ruud]

Wait - wouldn’t he have signed in for these last friendlies had it even been a remote possibility?  Sorry if I’m repeating the obvious but we have recognized problems in midfield and if Arfield was going to be a solution they would have addressed it before the Qatar match 

[MtlMario]

5 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

 

This World Cup isn’t the important one - 2026 is. 

I think this W/C is very important. Just last week I asked someone if he would be cheering for Canada at the W/C, he said " I have to Italy isn't there". This is someone who only watches  soccer when it is the W/C or Euros. What's worse is there a lot of people like him that I know that think the same way. Most couldn't name 2 players on our N/T and do not know the difference between a free kick and offside. This is our chance to capture some of these people if we do really well. If we get clobbered each game they will all say " that's why I do not follow Canadian soccer".                                        

PS. Everyone loves a winner, unfortunately not everybody is like us that follow Canada's National teams win or lose.

Edited September 29, 2022 by MtlMario

[kacbru]

7 hours ago, El Hombre said:

4) The first step in any sort of Arfield comeback would be for Scott to reach out to John and say "If there's a place for me, I'd love to be considered."  Has he done that?  There would be a question for Arfield to answer because if he hasn't then it's on him.  He retired.  If he wants back, then he has to make the first move.  Our coach should not be begging players to play for Canada.  Now, if he has done that and Herdman's ignored his calls, that is worth discussing.  However, if he hasn't done that and is trying to leverage a TV appearance to do that, that is gross.  I think if it was any other player doing that, many more around here would find it as gross as I do.  But it's all conjecture.  I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'm just a guy who doesn't think the grass is always greener.

This is exactly it for me.  He needs to state he is coming out of retirement before any other questions should be entertained.  "Never say never" is just wishy washy BS that doesn't change the fact that he retired.

[dyslexic nam]

I doubt he announces he is coming out of retirement without first having a clear understanding that Herdman wants him back.  The only way it would happen IMO is if they work it out behind closed doors and then both are on the same page. 

[eramosat]

see, i wish there were polls!  polls would help me sort out how important Arfield might be to Canada's success in Qatar, if he moves the needle in any manner forwards, from fans who're interested.

i gotta say tho...to me, Scott seems like he has been in charge of his own destiny this whole way.  and that he just picked a path that unfortunately now has him on the outside looking in, chiefly because he chose to be outside, and also because he's been pushed outside due to his increasing irrelevancy to fundamental success at his position.

would still like a poll or two, to get clarity on what is a tough forum to read.

[El Hombre]

14 minutes ago, eramosat said:

see, i wish there were polls!  polls would help me sort out how important Arfield might be to Canada's success in Qatar, if he moves the needle in any manner forwards, from fans who're interested.

i gotta say tho...to me, Scott seems like he has been in charge of his own destiny this whole way.  and that he just picked a path that unfortunately now has him on the outside looking in, chiefly because he chose to be outside, and also because he's been pushed outside due to his increasing irrelevancy to fundamental success at his position.

would still like a poll or two, to get clarity on what is a tough forum to read.

Pro Tip: Just listen to me.  I'm from the center of the universe so my opinion counts double.

[eramosat]

7 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Pro Tip: Just listen to me.  I'm from the center of the universe so my opinion counts double.

have no fear...i already have my eye squarely on you and your heavily skewed bias for humour and what seems like  reason-ability, and de-escalation.  wish i could have the same approach at times.

just don't let it goto your head.

[CanadaFan123]

Poor choice of words with me saying 2022 isn’t important - of course it is, I wouldn’t be spending $20k to follow this team all over North America and to Qatar if it wasn’t.  What I mean is that in terms of the overall outlook of football in this country and this program we have a genuine shot at making noise in 2026. I don’t think calling Arfield outweighs the importance of building a culture for our national team.