CNL: Jamaica vs Canada - Saturday, November 18th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[eramosat]

A Canada win vs. a home Jamaica!  Historic!   And hal+f of what's required to require for the Copa, let alone NL semis.  One of the best results in a long time.

I took a swing through the comments after watching the match tonite...ok for all of them, I'm neither too hot nor too cold on them.  I prefer the satisfaction of the basic win versus hand-wringing on how it came about.

Only missing comment type I felt was, Jamaica was just not that impressive themselves IMHO.  Beyond some long ball coin flips that sometimes went well for them, only to then miss scoring, they were kinda anemic.  Canada had as many similar great chances that went no-where...so why does Jamaica get so much credit from the Board when just about zero is said about Canada's similar near misses? 

But the goals Canada scored?  And how the J. defenders dealt with them?  If those were against Canada, we would absolutely crucify the players who were beat, and with good reason.   Larin's capture of that free ball, then splitting the two defenders, was a gift from those same defenders.  And why no-one was able to simply just close out on Laryea a bit more tactically with what 3 maybe available defenders to choose from?  Laryea is swift, but Jamaica had tons of players on duty to defend.  They sucked.

Anyways.  Job is not done.  But I am pretty happy, and also somewhat confident, in a  positive result Tuesday.  I hope the squad shows up ready to play in the snow, and lock in some important advancements!  Who knows, maybe some of the boards favourite bench players will get some time to prove their worth.

[sose]

5 hours ago, SirBobsaget said:

Lookup the Heracles vs PSV game, Canada is the last 2-ish hours.

Thanks, I found it on the CONCACAF youtube channel 

[nolando]

17 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Just got to the game now. Thought it was a good performance. Their goal was a joke. Terrible officiating 

Job not done but feeling good

Jamaica a solid team. I expect them to qualify 

Agreed. We can't take them lightly.

Edited November 19, 2023 by nolando

[El Hombre]

11 hours ago, Corazon said:

  Davies - Not very good at all from him today.  I feel that he really should be playing left back for us

Good analysis but I disagree with this.  The main reason is that, because of his reputation and skill, when he's in midfield he draws at least two defenders to him.  This opens up space for our other attackers.  I think that's important.

Also, even if we moved him to the backline, I don't think that would change his game any.  I think he'd still attempt a risky play or two and I would much prefer a line of four behind him when he does.

When he's with Bayern they have so many gamebreakers that he's never the focus of the defence.  However this is not true with Canada, which is why I think he looks to struggle.  Eventually our opponents may become less naive and realize we have quality elsewhere too but in the meantime leave him in midfield, let him try to do what he does and hopefully that opens space for everyone else.

Our managers can't be hesitant about pulling him though or give him special treatment.  Gone are the days when I worry about one or two individuals getting their nose out of joint and staying home on international breaks.  I think with the improvement in our depth we can deal with that (except when it comes to Eustaquio, give him whatever he wants).

[Addona]

I’m sorry if I missed this in previous posts, but were our players upset with the ref for letting them take the quick free kick? Or did they not hear the whistle? They were frustrated about something… I noticed on one of our subsequent free kicks, she quickly pointed at her whistle and it seemed to annoy some of our players, as if to say, “Where was that on their free kick?”

[dyslexic nam]

24 minutes ago, Addona said:

I’m sorry if I missed this in previous posts, but were our players upset with the ref for letting them take the quick free kick? Or did they not hear the whistle? They were frustrated about something… I noticed on one of our subsequent free kicks, she quickly pointed at her whistle and it seemed to annoy some of our players, as if to say, “Where was that on their free kick?”

Yes, they were quite annoyed.  To the point where Kamal got a yellow for complaining.  And everyone sort of scrummed her (as much as we ever do that sort of thing).  

[EJsens1]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

Good analysis but I disagree with this.  The main reason is that, because of his reputation and skill, when he's in midfield he draws at least two defenders to him.  This opens up space for our other attackers.  I think that's important.

I find he holds on to the ball way too long and tries to force it through multiple players. The number of times where he gets in a bit of trouble and he could easily lay it off, but chooses to deke through multiple defenders happens too often in my opinion. Maybe because he has really high expectations, but I find I get more frustrated with his play at times than others

[El Hombre]

31 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

I find he holds on to the ball way too long and tries to force it through multiple players. The number of times where he gets in a bit of trouble and he could easily lay it off, but chooses to deke through multiple defenders happens too often in my opinion. Maybe because he has really high expectations, but I find I get more frustrated with his play at times than others

I completely agree.  He does do this.  Having said that, we're left with two questions:

1 - Are you comfortable with not having him in our starting 11?

2 - If no, would you prefer he does this from a midfield position or a defensive position?

I prefer the former because then you have someone like Adekugbe to help clean up when it happens.  I don't think you can tell him to just stop doing it.

Also, sometimes it works.  There were a couple times where he broke through against two or three yesterday and that started a few really good moves.

For me, it's all about limiting the risk when he tries this stuff because it can lead to high reward.

[Unnamed Trialist]

15 hours ago, Corazon said:

Slow start but overall the game got much better.  Some improvements still to be made but there were many positives as well in this game.  I too am very glad to see us taking much more shots from outside the box.  If we can add this threat to our attack, it will make us that more difficult to play against.  Too much of our focus in attack comes down the outside and rightfully so given our talents.  Excited to see more attack in the middle of the park.  I'm also not convinced with all of Biello's tactics yet but it worked out in the end.  I liked moving to a back 4 but I think we need another central midfielder to have more control of these games.

Borjan - Distribution could be improved.  I thought he was okay other than that as Jamaica really didn't test him too frequently.  Needs to make sure we're not asleep on free kicks.  However, I will add that that Jamaica goal is called back in my local men's Sunday leagues 10 times out of 10.  Shocking refereeing there but also very unsurprising from CONCACAF.

Miller -  Thought he played near flawless back there.  He isn't the fastest out there but he does such a great job reading the play and his tackling is exceptional as well.  I thought he was one of if not our best player today.

Vitoria - I felt that he grew into the game but he had a few big mistakes early on that should have punished us.  Lucky not to be down early due to his early game struggles.  More than anyone, I think Vitoria needs to be pushed to a role off the bench (much like Henry did during qualification).  He still provides leadership and he can be used in certain games off the bench.

Laryea - Again, I thought he had a slow start but once he got going I thought he was great.  Arguably another one of our top performers even with a slow start.  Exceptional run and assist on the final goal as well.

Adekugbe - Was unsure that he should be starting, but he was overall okay and more than adequate out there.

Eustaquio - I really think Eustaquio and Kone are left out to dry in these formations.  So hard to ask two midfielders to play by themselves with wingers playing along their outside.  Not a lot great about today's performance aside from his workhorse rate and his tidy finish.

Kone - See above but obviously had some terrible giveaways in dangerous areas.  He got better as the game opened up.  I think he's got the size, strength, speed and dribbling capabilities that can make him a better player than Eustaquio in a 2 man midfield.  Unfortunately some of his passes and decisions are lacking but he's still got time to improve those aspects of his game.  

Davies - Not very good at all from him today.  I feel that he really should be playing left back for us but I also understand that we have 4/5 outside backs capable of starting for this Canada so they're trying to find roles for everyone.  I know I'm repeating everyone on here but how has Davies been able to convince another Head Coach he needs to be taking our set pieces?  I'd be shocked if team mates want him taking them.  I've never seen a player so consistently poor at corners and free kicks and it almost feels like house league where the coaches child takes all the set pieces despite being arguably the worst on the team at them.

Tajon - Much like Davies, not a great game at all, but also because of the field of play.  Today's conditions were never going to benefit our players that thrive at dribbling.  Expect big games from him and Davies on Tuesday.

Larin - Should have finished at least one or two chances but did exceptionally well on David's goal and I would say that his hold up play was better than usual.  One of our brighter players today.

David - Not great but nice to see him on the scoresheet.  Sometimes, its the easiest goals like that, that can change a scoring draught.  Love his work rate and press but need some group press to support him.

Kaye - Had a couple minor giveaways but overall stayed under the radar, which I think we would all take from a MAK performance nowadays. 

Osorio - I didn't think he was poor either and I thought he originally made the right decision to pull after the first late chance.  I don't think he had the skill to get it to where Millar needed him to and it wasn't going to be a great scoring chance even still.  But there is No excuse on the 2nd chance though.  He needs to see that first touch pass to Millar.  There are times to hold up which he did well on the first chance.  The 2nd was inexcusable, especially since he continued on and tried (and failed) at a tougher pass instead of holding on.

Hoilett - Wasn't able to get too involved in his time but I believe it was him who played a nice one-two with Laryea to set him free down the wing on the winning goal.

Johnston - Surprised he didn't start and would have preferred to see LDF come in instead.

Millar - No one works as hard or has as much heart as Millar.  Hard work and effort pays off and it shows as he has moved up in our depth chart as one of our main players off the bench.

See you all Tuesday at BMO Field.

Very accurate assessment, agree with pretty well everything.

Borjan has never had good distribution, and worse, he is terribly slow playing out, meaning our back line loses its chance at having time to move forward with it. Then his long goal kicks never seek a player running inside out on a diagonal. Basically, he is an old fashioned keeper, a stopper, with strong presence and psychologically solid, but old school.

Agree that the less visible players like Adekugbe and Miller were more consistent overall. Vitoria: replacing him with another CB is a necessity, that is clear, he was struggling, but we have to be a bit patient if we want to do this. This business of expecting Cornelius to step in and be clearly an immediate improvement when we've patiently let Steven do his thing, for better and lately more for worse for games on end.

As for the midfield, here is where you have guys like Davies and Tajon who need to be supporting the middle, and didn't yesterday--and hardly ever do.  An outside player could perfectly well be more inside in our half, in the build-up, and then broaden the field in attack. We saw this vs. Croatia at the WC too, Davies could have supported our midfield that first half, in certain key moments, even from the wing, and did not. Canada does not have a midfield model.

Osorio: I appreciated that he pressured and put in a shift, so I won't complain much more. But definitely, Millar would have done appreciably more if he'd been given those 30 minutes. Or Hoillet.

Larin and David: it's been a couple dozen games together, and they still don't play as a cohesive duo. It seems Herdman never worked on it, so I am not blaming Biello. And they did not play connected yesterday either. Except of course the goal. 

[CanadaFan123]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Very accurate assessment, agree with pretty well everything.

Borjan has never had good distribution, and worse, he is terribly slow playing out, meaning our back line loses its chance at having time to move forward with it. Then his long goal kicks never seek a player running inside out on a diagonal. Basically, he is an old fashioned keeper, a stopper, with strong presence and psychologically solid, but old school.

Agree that the less visible players like Adekugbe and Miller were more consistent overall. Vitoria: replacing him with another CB is a necessity, that is clear, he was struggling, but we have to be a bit patient if we want to do this. This business of expecting Cornelius to step in and be clearly an immediate improvement when we've patiently let Steven do his thing, for better and lately more for worse for games on end.

As for the midfield, here is where you have guys like Davies and Tajon who need to be supporting the middle, and didn't yesterday--and hardly ever do.  An outside player could perfectly well be more inside in our half, in the build-up, and then broaden the field in attack. We saw this vs. Croatia at the WC too, Davies could have supported our midfield that first half, in certain key moments, even from the wing, and did not. Canada does not have a midfield model.

Osorio: I appreciated that he pressured and put in a shift, so I won't complain much more. But definitely, Millar would have done appreciably more if he'd been given those 30 minutes. Or Hoillet.

Larin and David: it's been a couple dozen games together, and they still don't play as a cohesive duo. It seems Herdman never worked on it, so I am not blaming Biello. And they did not play connected yesterday either. Except of course the goal. 

This isn’t true. They connected as well as they ever have yesterday. David also set Larin up for the chance before half and Larin set up David’s run early on. Really impressed by those two yesterday.

[costarg]

46 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This isn’t true. They connected as well as they ever have yesterday. David also set Larin up for the chance before half and Larin set up David’s run early on. Really impressed by those two yesterday.

The positive 2-3 plays they combined on are minor when compared to the benefit of having a stronger presence in the midfield.  We get away with it in CONCACAF, but two strikers vs serious opposition is just plain dumb.

[CanadaFan123]

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

The positive 2-3 plays they combined on are minor when compared to the benefit of having a stronger presence in the midfield.  We get away with it in CONCACAF, but two strikers vs serious opposition is just plain dumb.

No disagreement there.

[BearcatSA]

9 hours ago, nolando said:

Agreed. We can't take them lightly.

No, that should never happen and of course you never know what will happen on the day but that said, we're the better team here and we should be able to complete the job on Tuesday night.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

The positive 2-3 plays they combined on are minor when compared to the benefit of having a stronger presence in the midfield.  We get away with it in CONCACAF, but two strikers vs serious opposition is just plain dumb.

If only you could play 2 up front and have 3 in midfield (*cough* 3-5-2).  

I understand why we played the way we did.  We were more worried about the wings than the centre of the park.  And we were right: the only chances they had from the centre were self-inflicted from give aways. They built nothing from there. 

And (save CBs, with apologies to Miller, who had a solid game, proving me wrong) we had our best players starting.  And we won the game because of it.  

I really think 4 at the back is stop-gap for this  team.  Against better opposition our future centre backs with work better in a 3.

[costarg]

5 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

If only you could play 2 up front and have 3 in midfield (*cough* 3-5-2).  

I understand why we played the way we did.  We were more worried about the wings than the centre of the park.  And we were right: the only chances they had from the centre were self-inflicted from give aways. They built nothing from there. 

And (save CBs, with apologies to Miller, who had a solid game, proving me wrong) we had our best players starting.  And we won the game because of it.  

I really think 4 at the back is stop-gap for this  team.  Against better opposition our future centre backs with work better in a 3.

4-5-1 - provides everything the 3-5-2 does without the weaknesses and wasted extra player up top. 

Once again, playing an extra CB because your existing 2 CB's are weak, does not make the backline stronger.  It just weakens the 11 and puts it off balance.  However flanking the two weak CB's with strong LB and RB which we do have does make the backline and the whole 11 stronger.

Edited November 19, 2023 by costarg

[EJsens1]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I completely agree.  He does do this.  Having said that, we're left with two questions:

1 - Are you comfortable with not having him in our starting 11?

2 - If no, would you prefer he does this from a midfield position or a defensive position?

I prefer the former because then you have someone like Adekugbe to help clean up when it happens.  I don't think you can tell him to just stop doing it.

Also, sometimes it works.  There were a couple times where he broke through against two or three yesterday and that started a few really good moves.

For me, it's all about limiting the risk when he tries this stuff because it can lead to high reward.

I’d be interested to see him play back sometime here soon like he does with Bayern. This is just my take on it, but it’s pretty clear when he comes to play for Canada, he wants to play up the field. Part of it is need obviously, but I think part of it is not having a coach who has/had the balls/pedigree to tell him no, you’re playing back. I suspect he would make less attempts at cutting through multiple players or some of the errors knowing there’s more risk if you cough it up and someone isn’t there to bail you out except a goalie 

Maybe in March at the CL semifinal match, if we move on here, under I hope I new coach, that could be experimented him playing back. I guess I wish there was a bit more accountability other than “he’s just too good and we don’t have the depth, so you just have to live with it”. The squad has showed at times they can win without him (WCQ’s).

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Vitoria: replacing him with another CB is a necessity, that is clear, he was struggling, but we have to be a bit patient if we want to do this. This business of expecting Cornelius to step in and be clearly an immediate improvement when we've patiently let Steven do his thing, for better and lately more for worse for games on end.

That was just far too glaring yesterday and I expect more of the same on Tues with the over the top foot race type balls from our opponent. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

28 minutes ago, costarg said:

4-5-1 - provides everything the 3-5-2 does without the weaknesses and wasted extra player up top. 

 

352 is harder to master and requires the right players but there are clear benefits if you can make it work. Incredibly myopic, if you don't see that at work in world football.  

Wasted extra player, ha!

I am not sure how you say that seriously when 2 up front literally gave us the goal that got us on our way.

Edit- 

A 4-2-3-1 can be a great formation, but not for what we have...yet.  We don't have a good CAM unless - maybe - you push Eustaquio up and then we are naked in the DM area and we don't have have 2 good DMs yet, even with him back.

(I actually think we try Laryea back there, make him a not-that-poor a man's Kante.)

Davies tries too much if,just given an offensive role, we saw that again yesterday, even when it was obvious the pitch was against him.  We know Buchanan offensive ability but professional coaches see his defensive chops, including apparently Inter, who don't play with wingers (ie. 352).  So give him a role where he does both.

And we don't yet have players I trust in a 2 against good opposition at CB. LDF is going to be better in a 3 than a 2, in my opinion.  His passing, intelligence, quickness and composure are his strengths in limited viewing.

Edited November 19, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

352 is harder to master and requires the right players but there are clear benefits if you can make it work. Incredibly myopic, if you don't see that at work in world football.  

Wasted extra player, ha!

I am not sure how you say that seriously when 2 up front literally gave us the goal that got us on our way.

I don't dislike the 3-5-2, It's a great system and personally I loved playing that way as well as teams that play it.  I just don't feel or see we have the players for it.  Belgium a few years ago, as well as Juventus during their crazy run, but look at the CB's they had to work with.  Those teams were built on the players, CANMNT is playing a system and shoehorning players into it. That never works.

One goal came from a David and Larin combo, doesn't mean we would not have scored with a different formation.  The second goal came from strong wing play and a midfielder, so doesn't say or prove much.

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

A 4-2-3-1 can be a great formation, but not for what we have...yet.  We don't have a good CAM unless - maybe - you push Eustaquio up and then we are naked in the DM area and we don't have have 2 good DMs yet, even with him back.

(I actually think we try Laryea back there, make him a not-that-poor a man's Kante.)

Davies tries too much if,just given an offensive role, we saw that again yesterday, even when it was obvious the pitch was against him.  We know Buchanan offensive ability but professional coaches see his defensive chops, including apparently Inter, who don't play with wingers (ie. 352).  So give him a role where he does both.

And we don't yet have players I trust in a 2 against good opposition at CB. LDF is going to be better in a 3 than a 2, in my opinion.  His passing, intelligence, quickness and composure are his strengths in limited viewing.

4-5-1 does not have to be 2 DM's and 1 CAM, it can be fluid.  The CAM creativity and offense can come from two strong wingers which we have.  We have the pool for 3 solid CM.

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

And we don't yet have players I trust in a 2 against good opposition at CB. LDF is going to be better in a 3 than a 2, in my opinion.  His passing, intelligence, quickness and composure are his strengths in limited viewing.

 This is the part that fascinates me, we don't have 2 good CB's so you add another even weaker one and put them in a formation that does not suit them to boot.  The complete opposite of what good soccer teams do, which is play a system which suits their philosophy and players.

Our strength is wingers and fullbacks, only playing two of them just handcuffs us and adds weaker players to our 11.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

I don't dislike the 3-5-2, It's a great system and personally I loved playing that way as well as teams that play it.  I just don't feel or see we have the players for it.  Belgium a few years ago, as well as Juventus during their crazy run, but look at the CB's they had to work with.  Those teams were built on the players, CANMNT is playing a system and shoehorning players into it. That never works.

One goal came from a David and Larin combo, doesn't mean we would not have scored with a different formation.  The second goal came from strong wing play and a midfielder, so doesn't say or prove much.

4-5-1 does not have to be 2 DM's and 1 CAM, it can be fluid.  The CAM creativity and offense can come from two strong wingers which we have.  We have the pool for 3 solid CM.

Two of our best players made the goal playing as strikers and working off each other.  Huge reach to say the formation doesn't matter. You are either leaving one out or in your words shoe-horning one in somewhere else.

 

We don't have 3 top central midfielders.  We have one, a number of declining ones, and a few potential ones.  The lack of international class depth is close to as bad as centre back.

 

Our strength actually isn't wingers.  Professional coaches play our best players as wingbacks or fullbacks that often play a wingback role. If you really don't want to have to shoe-horn in our best players, you play with wingbacks. Davies needs to prove he is a net positive as winger to me, most of all.

 

If the concept of shoring up a weak position by adding an extra man is a foreign concept to you.  I'm not sure what to say.  It happens all the time in top level football. Good managers use formations to counter threats; we have had and will have for the immediate future, threats to our centre backs.

The 3 suits, most often, what we have at this level and hopefully what is coming in the future at a higher level. We have had some quick and good in the air play there, are you actually telling me we had two of both that truly suits the threats a centre back pairing face?

We can play a 4 if we are blooding new guys or get two big enough, fast enough, centre backs in the future. But even yesterday, Vitoria got caught out having to cover long balls for a wide player.  Even if that's Cornelius, he's going to have trouble covering Bailey, whilst coming from a central position.

Edited November 19, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[RS]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Osorio: I appreciated that he pressured and put in a shift, so I won't complain much more. But definitely, Millar would have done appreciably more if he'd been given those 30 minutes. Or Hoillet.

Hoilett was subbed on at the same time as Osorio.

[Unnamed Trialist]

53 minutes ago, RS said:

Hoilett was subbed on at the same time as Osorio.

Hoillet and MIllar, I guess I wasn't clear.

But I know you would throw on Osorio's or any other TFC player's lifeless cadaver if everything were equal. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

We don't have 3 top central midfielders.  We have one, a number of declining ones, and a few potential ones.  The lack of international class depth is close to as bad as centre back.

Our strength actually isn't wingers.  Professional coaches play our best players as wingbacks or fullbacks that often play a wingback role. If you really don't want to have to shoe-horn in our best players, you play with wingbacks. Davies needs to prove he is a net positive as winger to me, most of all.

Very accurate assessment. We don't have truly top class CBs. 

We only have Eustaquio as a quality mid, the rest are exactly as you say, veterans in slight or more decline, or aspiring youth. This is why, I think, Eustaquio looks and seems overextended so often for us.

And about the wings. We think we have wingers but our wing play is negligible. As you say, we mostly get it from the wingbacks or fullbacks coming forward. Here the question is how you line up and coach the outside channels, you set them up for the wings, the wing/full backs. But you can't clog a wing and draw in defenders if you think you have players who can dominate wide, it's counterproductive. Then, having fast "wingers" who never get to the endline, and the team spending hours to get a corner some days.

The most serious problem is that Davies, who has amazing flashes, is often ineffective for us. Except against the teams below 8-10th in Concacaf. On Saturday we saw he was not able to make a move from the left on defenders.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[dyslexic nam]

12 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hoillet and MIllar, I guess I wasn't clear.

But I know you would throw on Osorio's or any other TFC player's lifeless cadaver if everything were equal. 

Definitely not intervening in the adorable pissing match between you two but that was funny.   

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Definitely not intervening in the adorable pissing match between you two but that was funny.   

Rudi and I go way back, I think he expects it of me. 

As I do of him dozing through a long detailed post of mine, and he only coughs, bristles and shakes off the frost when a TFC player is mentioned.