The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[David edgar]

Back to Whitecaps?

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

4 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

This is fine.  I think most of us can accept that Davies would be further along in his development if he had gone to an established European Academy/Club at 16 or 17 like deGuzman, Pulisic etc. 

Davies does have some catching up to do at Bayern.  In his favour is that he is a ridiculous athlete so hopefully his speed and strength will make up for any short term deficiencies in his game. 

Maybe, we can say “what if” forever when it comes to development. But remember, with the Caps he was able to play important first team games against men in a very physical league. We really don’t know if he would have been better in a euro academy. He hasn’t even played a game at Bayern yet. Maybe he comes out and has a great year. Lots of players struggle in academies too, you just only hear about the successes.

[Grizzly]

5 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

This is fine.  I think most of us can accept that Davies would be further along in his development if he had gone to an established European Academy/Club at 16 or 17 like deGuzman, Pulisic etc. 

Davies does have some catching up to do at Bayern.  In his favour is that he is a ridiculous athlete so hopefully his speed and strength will make up for any short term deficiencies in his game. 

 

1 hour ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

Maybe, we can say “what if” forever when it comes to development. But remember, with the Caps he was able to play important first team games against men in a very physical league. We really don’t know if he would have been better in a euro academy. He hasn’t even played a game at Bayern yet. Maybe he comes out and has a great year. Lots of players struggle in academies too, you just only hear about the successes.

Agree with BenFisk. He would have gotten better coaching at Bayern but he also would have been playing junior Bundesliga and 4th division, a much much lower level than MLS. At Bayern as a youth he might have occasionally gotten the chance to train with the 1st team but with the Caps he was training with, playing with and playing against some very high level players every day. Don't forget that most of the players even in good European academies never have professional careers. Most of the Bayern 2nd team players will go on to have careers in the 4th and 5th divisions. If the choice had been between him playing the last couple of years in the Caps youth system versus the Bayern youth system then I think Bayern would be clearly superior but in a choice between being a first team player for the Caps versus being a Bayern youth player I would choose what he did with the Caps.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Grizzly

[Unnamed Trialist]

How can you say a guy who is signed by Bayern at age 17 had his development stalled?

It is pretty well the most stupid stuff I have read in a long time. You can't even judge a developmental curve at 20 properly, never mind 18. 

I love the way the Americans have to cite these pseudo-studies because they are not willing to let the kids just compete freely in competitive tiers, without having monopolies and ultra-capitalist academies dominating their system, topped off by 3 month college seasons. 

[Obinna]

Anyone else out there surprised at how much negativity that article generated, or is it just me?

I was just excited to see Davies get more attention and exposure. Now I am reading @Unnamed Trialist ranting about psuedo-studies and ultra-capitalism.

Ah, the magic of the Voyageurs board!

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Grizzly said:

If the choice had been between him playing the last couple of years in the Caps youth system versus the Bayern youth system then I think Bayern would be clearly superior but in a choice between being a first team player for the Caps versus being a Bayern youth player I would choose what he did with the Caps.

I agree with this.  I also believe that he's moved on at the right time. 

[BrennanFan]

3 hours ago, Grizzly said:

 

Agree with BenFisk. He would have gotten better coaching at Bayern but he also would have been playing junior Bundesliga and 4th division, a much much lower level than MLS. At Bayern as a youth he might have occasionally gotten the chance to train with the 1st team but with the Caps he was training with, playing with and playing against some very high level players every day. Don't forget that most of the players even in good European academies never have professional careers. Most of the Bayern 2nd team players will go on to have careers in the 4th and 5th divisions. If the choice had been between him playing the last couple of years in the Caps youth system versus the Bayern youth system then I think Bayern would be clearly superior but in a choice between being a first team player for the Caps versus being a Bayern youth player I would choose what he did with the Caps.

Pulisic was playing in the Bundesliga at 17. I think we could have expected the same from Davies, had he been able to leave earlier - and that is why his development is not where it could be (hypothetically).  

I acknowledge that this is really splitting hairs as the kid is still on track to be the best we've ever produced by a wide margin.

Edited December 31, 2018 by BrennanFan

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Anyone else out there surprised at how much negativity that article generated, or is it just me?

I was just excited to see Davies get more attention and exposure. Now I am reading @Unnamed Trialist ranting about psuedo-studies and ultra-capitalism.

Ah, the magic of the Voyageurs board!

You are right that you cannot have a system that is both radically monopolistic and ultra-capitalist. So I am wrong. The US system is a monopoly, merit has limited value, winning is not that important, and soccer players have to be at least middle class. That is bad for development, and not a model to follow. So when one of theirs says a guy has not developmed properly at age 18, in his off-season, then I get irate: it is not a serious way of analysing the question. 

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 The US system is a monopoly, merit has limited value, winning is not that important, and soccer players have to be at least middle class. That is bad for development, and not a model to follow.

I see similar things in this country in many different sports (not just soccer), team or individual.  I'm not seeing a level playing field of opportunity, but maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

I think I've had this discussion on here before, but I don't remember the thread.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I see similar things in this country in many different sports (not just soccer), team or individual.  I'm not seeing a level playing field of opportunity, but maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

I think I've had this discussion on here before, but I don't remember the thread.

When our biggest transfer in history and the topic of this thread benefited from a guy doing free soccer in Edmonton, and then ensuring he could play regardless of the family's income, there's the proof. Which is worldwide, by the way. I would hate to think about how many kids who would love to play but their parents cannot really afford it. Since we do not have school soccer in any significant way, and clubs have no motivation to compete with each other, they con parents into overpaying with no test as to their quality on the field, we have no general motivation to discover talent and to nuture quality youth, regardless of their parents' socio-economic level. And that sucks. 

Davies should be a huge argument to reform the system, but not one SA in any Canadian province has the balls to redo the competitions to expose the money gougers for what they are. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

14 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

Pulisic was playing in the Bundesliga at 17. I think we could have expected the same from Davies, had he been able to leave earlier - and that is why his development is not where it could be (hypothetically).  

I acknowledge that this is really splitting hairs as the kid is still on track to be the best we've ever produced by a wide margin.

Just because he got there faster doesn’t mean it was better. I’m not trying to say that MLS is a better place to develop. I am just questioning how people are saying Canada’s top player has been developmentally stunted before he has even played a game in a top league.

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since we do not have school soccer in any significant way, and clubs have no motivation to compete with each other, they con parents into overpaying with no test as to their quality on the field, we have no general motivation to discover talent and to nuture quality youth, regardless of their parents' socio-economic level. And that sucks. 

Davies should be a huge argument to reform the system, but not one SA in any Canadian province has the balls to redo the competitions to expose the money gougers for what they are. 

Well, that's my point.  You're preaching to a choir here.

[Admin]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When our biggest transfer in history and the topic of this thread benefited from a guy doing free soccer in Edmonton, and then ensuring he could play regardless of the family's income, there's the proof. Which is worldwide, by the way. I would hate to think about how many kids who would love to play but their parents cannot really afford it. Since we do not have school soccer in any significant way, and clubs have no motivation to compete with each other, they con parents into overpaying with no test as to their quality on the field, we have no general motivation to discover talent and to nuture quality youth, regardless of their parents' socio-economic level. And that sucks. 

Davies should be a huge argument to reform the system, but not one SA in any Canadian province has the balls to redo the competitions to expose the money gougers for what they are. 

When I was more involved dealing directly with clubs, and this was a while ago, most clubs said the same thing.  Kids that wanted to play, played.   They found a way to get them in.  Maybe they are not on an expensive elite travel team but they played.

Is it different today? Could be, but in my experience the clubs are not all hard line organizations that are pay to play.  They make room where they can to help kids and families out.

 

 

 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, admin said:

When I was more involved dealing directly with clubs, and this was a while ago, most clubs said the same thing.  Kids that wanted to play, played.   They found a way to get them in.  Maybe they are not on an expensive elite travel team but they played.

Is it different today? Could be, but in my experience the clubs are not all hard line organizations that are pay to play.  They make room where they can to help kids and families out.

 

 

 

This was true in my experience growing up playing soccer as well. But I would add that this was mostly/only true when it came to kids who were very talented. I'm certain there are many, many kids who want to play all kinds of sports, but unless you show potential there is nobody willing to help you out, generally.

I do suspect this also happens when talented kids from house league want to play All Star but can't afford it. When you have to travel for nationals, that's when soccer becomes very costly. There was even one season in particular where I had to rely on the generosity of someone outside of the family to help me travel to nationals. Fundraising only does so much.

I agree with everyone here that ultimately pay-to-play would not be a thing, but my question is, where does the money come from at an institutional level? Perhaps @Unnamed Trialist can shed some light on this, as he's familiar with how they address this in Spain. Could the solutions in Spain and other countries be applied to Canada and the USA? Is there less will or desire to fund underprivileged kids in, shall I say, 3rd world soccer nations (like Canada)?

And I know I am guilty here too, but this probably isn't the thread to discuss this.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Obinna

[Admin]

You notice it when a talented kid is in that situation.  You don't notice the kids in house league.   The talented kid had to start somewhere too. 

The costs are different today.  A simple elementary school gym rental went up 500% in the time USector was running its rec indoor league.  That increase was on top of a fee that when the league started was already an order of magnitude higher than booking a gym was in Vancouver in 1990.  That is not an exaggeration.   Adult commercial oriented rec leagues that are willing to pay big dollars for time didn't really exist 20 years ago and have the city and parks boards seeing $ signs.

Some of the economic forces are outside of the control of the clubs simply being evil.

 

 

 

[Ed_S]

Any news on that Davies kid??

 

[Admin]

2 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Any news on that Davies kid??

 

Who?

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

This was true in my experience growing up playing soccer as well. But I would add that this was mostly/only true when it came to kids who were very talented. I'm certain there are many, many kids who want to play all kinds of sports, but unless you show potential there is nobody willing to help you out, generally.

I do suspect this also happens when talented kids from house league want to play All Star but can't afford it. When you have to travel for nationals, that's when soccer becomes very costly. There was even one season in particular where I had to rely on the generosity of someone outside of the family to help me travel to nationals. Fundraising only does so much.

I agree with everyone here that ultimately pay-to-play would not be a thing, but my question is, where does the money come from at an institutional level? Perhaps @Unnamed Trialist can shed some light on this, as he's familiar with how they address this in Spain. Could the solutions in Spain and other countries be applied to Canada and the USA? Is there less will or desire to fund underprivileged kids in, shall I say, 3rd world soccer nations (like Canada)?

And I know I am guilty here too, but this probably isn't the thread to discuss this.

People coaching kids and hired to run the sporting side of clubs in Spain, at a developmental level, make very little income.

There is actually a set of rules in place now where you cannot even coach more than one team, unless it is u8 or something, so you will be paid to train 2-4 times a week, depending on the tier, and then games. Everyone has to have a least the basic course, and the higher the tier, the better the coaching certificate you have to hold. The club will provide a delegate, who is often a parent, unpaid. If you coach on a higher level,  you get paid more, but it is a supplement to your day job until you are maybe coaching a top tier u-15 or higher. The clubs are like non-profit associations and have elected boards, and they are not paid. The voluntary work is intense. 

Most clubs do not own their stadiums or fields, they rent from the municipality, usually the owner. There are hundreds of field turf surfaces everywhere, so you can train all day and play from 8 in the morning to 11 at night. Clubs complain about the fees they have to pay for the use of these fields, and (typical Voyageur I am at ten minutes from midnight, after eating Canadian lobster for dinner and sorbet with jelly beans, writing this shit!!) and they usually have to share with other clubs. In many municipalities there are grants for kids in need, and clubs apply for a certain amount of these, to dole out, or else they wait for kids to apply (this is complicated as parents of kids in need are often negligent about defending their interests). Many kids, then, maybe 5-10%, play free. Clubs frequently identify local boys, they have to have the minimum level to play, it is not a charity system, but if they are competent for the age, they will play even if the parents can't pay in full.

Fees in Spain are low, almost without exception. Kids pay anywhere from 40 to 80 euros a month, for 9 months, or ten. There are a few tournaments, like at Easer, but usually no more than a few hours away, so might cost a player another 100, if that. >You pay a full set of clothing, another 150-200, plus your boots. Some clubs charge more, have more teams at each level, and use this system to fund their first team, but it is a formula that parents do not like, so many clubs that have been cynical about this have paid for it, by losing players. 

The system only changes at academies of pro clubs, usually in the top three tiers. Then kids do not pay, even at age 8-9, and all coaches are properly paid to develop, and there is greater infrastructure to support the players. If you sign for a top club, or a level that is a high tier for your age, you will usually not pay. 

Edit: ate the grapes as is the Spanish tradition, watching fireworks, posted this, all in a single take (not really true)

Edited December 31, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bdog]

4 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Any news on that Davies kid??

 

Hasn't scored for Bayern yet, I think we should all give up on him to be honest. 

[Grizzly]

23 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

Pulisic was playing in the Bundesliga at 17. I think we could have expected the same from Davies, had he been able to leave earlier - and that is why his development is not where it could be (hypothetically).  

I acknowledge that this is really splitting hairs as the kid is still on track to be the best we've ever produced by a wide margin.

It is kind of a moot point because I think Pulisic transferred before the FIFA age rules came into effect and he also has a Euro passport (actually I am not sure which reason was behind him being able to transfer but if someone knows). Regardless, transferring to Bayern earlier was not an option. However, if we want to speculate like you are doing I can equally imagine a scenario of him transferring to Bayern at 17 and not being ready as a player for such a high level and not being mature enough to adapt to the change in culture and pressure and flaming out. Plus if he had transferred a year earlier it might have been to a lesser team than Bayern, it was his play in 2018 that really sold them on him.

At the moment he has one year of being an occassional MLS sub, one year of being a good starter and one year of being a star player which has upped the pressure on him every year. That he has managed to deal with the pressure last year of starting every game with high expectations and often double coverage from both players and the media :-) is what makes me very positive that he will succeed in Bayern. No one can know what would have happened if he had been able to transfer earlier but I think his progression has been the right one and if I were able to change history and arrange a transfer to Bayern a year earlier I would not do it.

[jpg75]

Pulisic has an EU (Croatian) passport.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

At the moment he has one year of being an occassional MLS sub, one year of being a good starter and one year of being a star player which has upped the pressure on him every year. That he has managed to deal with the pressure last year of starting every game with high expectations and often double coverage from both players and the media :-) is what makes me very positive that he will succeed in Bayern. No one can know what would have happened if he had been able to transfer earlier but I think his progression has been the right one and if I were able to change history and arrange a transfer to Bayern a year earlier I would not do it.

One big thing which has really impressed me about Davies was that, in the face of the thuggery he faced in games (guys dragging him down rugby tackle-style), he kept his composure and stuck to his task.  Often, he was a whole lot better role model than the senior "leaders" on the Caps in that regard.  I think the impetuous red card he earned vs Jamaica in the 2017 fall friendly is the last time I can think of that he lost the plot emotionally and acted selfishly.  I also believe he will be successful with his new team.

If he continues the rising road trajectory at Bayern and looks to be worth every cent on the dollar, it will be interesting to see how his dynamic with our NT and, especially more so, or NT coach evolves during that time.  2019 is going to be an exciting year!

 

[RS]

3 hours ago, Grizzly said:

It is kind of a moot point because I think Pulisic transferred before the FIFA age rules came into effect and he also has a Euro passport (actually I am not sure which reason was behind him being able to transfer but if someone knows). 

 

2 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Pulisic has an EU (Croatian) passport.

 

And his dad moved over to work in Germany for the express purpose of Pulisic being able to transfer to Dortmund.

[SpursFlu]

Davies was not developed by the MLS, he was developed by the Whitecaps

[1996]

3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Davies was not developed by the MLS, he was developed by the Whitecaps

Lol the bad old MLS eh!