CNL: Canada vs Jamaica - Tuesday, November 21st - 7:30pm EST / 4:30pm Pacific - Toronto

[Joe MacCarthy]

Pardon me again if I am not up with the reading.  Platt mentioned something about the next CNL and there's a chance we might have to play qualifying games.

Could this be a blessing in disguise like the many games we had to play for WCQ?

If this happens it could give us a chance to blood new players and for a new coach to familiarize himself with the team and do a little experimenting.  It helped us in the WCQ.

[BearcatSA]

18 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Platt makes a good point about Vitoria

 

Agreed. I think the lack of outfield player leadership was very noticeable in terms of quarterbacking the scene and managing the game out.  I would like to think that Vitoria would have been directing his LB to be more cognizant of his position prior to the second goal, for instance.

However, I think I need to go back and get his perspective on Vitoria v Bailey in the first match where the Villa winger should have scored two out of the gate.  Ifs and buts....

[Big_M]

things ppl didnt wanna accept but might start to realize after this game:

david and larin are bad finishers

eustaquio and kone make too many costly mistakes

unfortunately its not like we have much better options

[narduch]

13 hours ago, Footyeh said:

https://x.com/SamAdekugbe/status/1727512818944221509?s=20 

Stupid comment from Sam.  

Everything J. Wilson said is true, we were riding a wave during qualifying, its over and done. 

 

This was it.

 

[BearcatSA]

Regardless of whether or not the missing three international matches this fall were tough opponent friendlies or competitve CNL qualies, I truly believe Biello would have stuck with his incumbent core (regardless of individual player form) with a few new guys getting cameo looks and minutes and that's it.  The only way a new face would have had an extended look was if the incumbent he was replacing was injured long term and the team was forced to make that change.  He was prepping those guys for this so we were living and (in this case) dying with the incumbents*.

Would it have made a difference?  Well, in the same vein that Bailey missing those early chances changed the match complexion in the first leg, we got stymied by Blake's first half saves.  Who knows?

In the end, we really need a new voice to lead this team and put in the as-needed tactical tweaks and personnel changes.  A loss like this should (in most FAs, perhaps not this one) accelerate that process.

*It's always been "incumbents" for me.  I got tired of the "brotherhood" brand a long, long time ago.

 

 

[PastPros]

1 hour ago, grigorio said:

He did with I think this emoji 🤦🏾‍♂️...

But what's that supposed to even mean. "Oops" in that what Jordan's saying is a mistake and is wrong? "Oops" in that he acknowledges they've fucked up of late? Or, "Opps" which is some new slang no one knows about like when Jr's 🧢 caught everyone off guard

As per interweb (and my daughter): Opp" is a slang abbreviation of the word "opponent" or "enemy." It is commonly used to refer to someone who is viewed as an adversary or someone with whom one has a conflict or disagreement.

So not a new slang that "no one" knows - just us old dudes. And I assume he used the plural to refer to everyone on the panel.

Edited November 23, 2023 by PastPros

[Watchmen]

35 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Regardless of whether or not the missing three international matches this fall were tough opponent friendlies or competitve CNL qualies, I truly believe Biello would have stuck with his incumbent core (regardless of individual player form) with a few new guys getting cameo looks and minutes and that's it.  The only way a new face would have had an extended look was if the incumbent he was replacing was injured long term and the team was forced to make that change.  He was prepping those guys for this so we were living and (in this case) dying with the incumbents*.

Would it have made a difference?  Well, in the same vein that Bailey missing those early chances changed the match complexion in the first leg, we got stymied by Blake's first half saves.  Who knows?

In the end, we really need a new voice to lead this team and put in the as-needed tactical tweaks and personnel changes.  A loss like this should (in most FAs, perhaps not this one) accelerate that process.

I think if we'd had some additional friendlies and Biello had stuck with the incumbents and the results weren't there, it might have at least made everyone pause and reevaluate the squad selection. 1 game in Japan had some built in excuses (a good opponent after lengthy travel and no games since the summer). Or, if he'd played some of the younger players in previous friendlies to see what they could do, it might have given him more confidence to put them in vs Jamaica.  Biello wasn't good, but the lack of friendlies did hurt him.

[Joe MacCarthy]

39 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

*It's always been "incumbents" for me.  I got tired of the "brotherhood" brand a long, long time ago.

While I am a big believer in doing whatever works or is effective no matter how conventional it may be to "the norm", it is pretty obvious "the brotherhood" was Herdman's gig. 

It is not something that can sustain itself long term.  It is one of those things where the spirit may be willing now but the ego is not.  It's been a while since we've seen "the brotherhood", I don't think folks are buying in wholeheartedly anymore.

I wonder when they'll stop singing the anthem, that will indicate when the ego won't subjugate to the group like they did when they were successful.

[BearcatSA]

20 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

It's been a while since we've seen "the brotherhood", I don't think folks are buying in wholeheartedly anymore.

Tell that to some (or rather, one) of the people at One Soccer.

[The Beaver 2.0]

5 hours ago, Big_M said:

things ppl didnt wanna accept but might start to realize after this game:

david and larin are bad finishers

eustaquio and kone make too many costly mistakes

unfortunately its not like we have much better options

Disagree with several of these points. David has been struggling at Lille, but he's a damned good finisher. Larin is also darn good.  Staq is usually very tidy.  Kone still has a ways to go, I agree.

[GasPed]

5 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Disagree with several of these points. David has been struggling at Lille, but he's a damned good finisher. Larin is also darn good.  Staq is usually very tidy.  Kone still has a ways to go, I agree.

Although Kone's last finish was actually a thing of beauty... ...probably the best goal we've seen this past year from this team.

[The Beaver 2.0]

Brotherhood or not, what seemed most lacking the other night was cohesion.  There were huge swaths of the second half where we had almost no midfield presence. Our wingers and forwards were way up the field and our defense was way back, and we got caught out several times as a result.  Too many guys gunning for glory, perhaps? This was like the 2-0 lead we blew several years ago, the game where we thought we'd arrived but forgot you still got to play smart football for the full 90 minutes. (Was that Haiti? I know for a fact Herdman had nightmares about that loss.)

We've got leadership issue all the way up and down! CSA, manager, players, tactics.  But, as with most organizations, leadership starts at the top. Herdman blunted much of the damage that the CSA could have inflicted--due to poor leadership--but he ain't there anymore. (He knew he could only take this team so far when the CSA has its head up its arse.)

As Platt said, hire two or three truly excellent and experienced leaders at the top of the CSA, and then a manager, and then let's see how this program looks over the next five to ten years.  (Might be early days yet, but I'd throw Axel Schuster's name in the ring for an organizational leadership role. Dude has vision and experience.

 

[red card]

8 hours ago, PastPros said:

In the One Soccer clip, Wheels talks about some of the players bringing up the labour issue the day before the game. He said it was a some of the younger players.

Does anyone know who he is referring to?

I always assumed it was guys like Osorio, Henry and Kaye (based on their role within the team, public comments they had made etc)

Wheels said most of the players don't care. And the younger players were the ones who said "Uhh?" when other players started talking about labour issues.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, Big_M said:

eustaquio and kone make too many costly mistakes

No and yes.

Kone is developing.

But they got hung out to dry by the formation.

Jamaica did nothing through the midfield down at their place. They just bypassed it to get it to their athletes.

They adjusted especially in the second half on Tuesday.  They put some athletes there.  I said on the match thread before everything was lost that they  have figured out how to bully a 2 man midfield.  Especially one that isn't that big or doesn't play that big.

We didn't adjust.

4 at the back didn't solve our problems and adds a bunch of new ones, if we need David and Larin on the pitch. Which we seem to.

[BearcatSA]

31 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Brotherhood or not, what seemed most lacking the other night was cohesion.  There were huge swaths of the second half where we had almost no midfield presence. Our wingers and forwards were way up the field and our defense was way back, and we got caught out several times as a result.  Too many guys gunning for glory, perhaps?

That's why I called it my version of hero ball.  Too many "me" plays out there.

[Obinna]

Nearly 48 hours after disaster struck and weirdly I am feeling like this was for the best. Rip the bandaid off and get the next phase started in earnest. Weird coping mechanism? Perhaps, but that's where I am at.

I would bet my home that had we won it would be nothing but chest puffing and delusions of grandeur for months, with take after take about how we are poised to avenge our NL final loss and lift our trophy, or what team we are going to beat up on in the Group Stage of Copa America to advance. 

Instead, we lost so now it's sober second thoughts, player depth questions, and general panic. Same team, same group of players, but very different narrative moving forward. 

But if we are thinking of 2026 this was probably the best thing to happen to us, isn't it? I would rather us get punched in the teeth now to knock some sense into us, so that we can take an honest look in the mirror at some real issues, instead of not addressing these issues, holding onto the old guard too long, keeping Biello around (good lord), etc. 

Is it just me?

Edited November 24, 2023 by Obinna

[BearcatSA]

53 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Nearly 48 hours after disaster struck and weirdly I am feeling like this was for the best. Rip the bandaid off and get the next phase started in earnest. Weird coping mechanism? Perhaps, but that's where I am at.

I would bet my home that had we won it would be nothing but chest puffing and delusions of grandeur for months, with take after take about how we are poised to avenge our NL final loss and lift our trophy, or what team we are going to beat up on in the Group Stage of Copa America to advance. 

Instead, we lost so now it's sober second thoughts, player depth questions, and general panic. Same team, same group of players, but very different narrative moving forward. 

But if we are thinking of 2026 this was probably the best thing to happen to us, isn't it? I would rather us get punched in the teeth now to knock some sense into us, so that we can take an honest look in the mirror at some real issues, instead of not addressing these issues, holding onto the old guard too long, keeping Biello around (good lord), etc. 

Is it just me?

If our very best players are in good club form, in their regular club playing positions, then I will feel a whole lot better about our playoff chances in the one-off neutral site match.  As for the honest look, apart from questioning his in-game management, I also don't think Biello has what's needed to engage in those tough conversations about selection and player deployment on the field.  He's just too close to the incumbency.

Edited November 24, 2023 by BearcatSA

[costarg]

15 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I also don't think Biello has what's needed to engage in those tough conversations about selection and player deployment on the field.  He's just too close to the incumbency.

Just to rewind, Biello started to bench Drogba when he didn't like what he saw.  He comes off as a nice guy, but even as a player he got dirty when he had to and had no qualms about it.  He's a competitor.

Difference here is that with the Impact he felt safe, was close to Joey and was supported.  With CANMNT, he took over a team in decline - not quality wise, but in a team, pride and mentality sense.

Interim is tough, cause you know you're only there because it was the quick and easy choice, not cause you earned it.  if you fail, you're out quickly.

Sooo naturally, the instinct is to play it safe and not gamble.  He's doing what a million coaches have already done when they start to smell the smoke.  MDS, Vanney, etc.... they coach for themselves and not with the bigger picture in mind. 

The match vs Japan was just Herdman's notes, formation, selections as well as the changes, like Brym at '60.  Biello learned doing the same thing for 2 years straight is not the solution, so changed up the formation vs Jamaica which everyone knew was 100% necessary.  The players was a balanced approach, but still too conservative.  At this point there is no doubt remaining that the experienced players are the reason we find ourselves in this situation today.

I'd like to believe Biello has seen enough to know what he needs to do vs T&T, but not sure the players are 100% behind him?  Bringing in a new coach vs T&T will be a massive challenge for anyone except an Ancelotti type who can come in and instantly command the room, understand the situation, analyze players and formations and raise morale as well as belief.  Not many Ancelotti's around though.  My dream is he takes this as a pet project for 2-3 years.  It would be the ultimate swan song, unless you consider winning the WC with Brazil an accomplishment.

Edited November 24, 2023 by costarg

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, costarg said:

Just to rewind, Biello started to bench Drogba when he didn't like what he saw.  He comes off as a nice guy, but even as a player he got dirty when he had to and had no qualms about it.  He's a competitor.

Difference here is that with the Impact he felt safe, was close to Joey and was supported.  With CANMNT, he took over a team in decline - not quality wise, but in a team, pride and mentality sense.

Interim is tough, cause you know you're only there because it was the quick and easy choice, not cause you earned it.  if you fail, you're out quickly.

Sooo naturally, the instinct is to play it safe and not gamble.  He's doing what a million coaches have already done when they start to smell the smoke.  MDS, Vanney, etc.... they coach for themselves and not with the bigger picture in mind. 

The match vs Japan was just Herdman's notes, formation, selections as well as the changes, like Brym at '60.  Biello learned doing the same thing for 2 years straight is not the solution, so changed up the formation vs Japan which everyone knew was 100% necessary.  The players was a balanced approach, but still too conservative.  At this point there is no doubt remaining that the experienced players are the reason we find ourselves in this situation today.

I'd like to believe Biello has seen enough to know what he needs to do vs T&T, but not sure the players are 100% behind him?  Bringing in a new coach vs T&T will be a massive challenge for anyone except an Ancelotti type who can come in and instantly command the room, understand the situation, analyze players and formations and raise morale as well as belief.  Not many Ancelotti's around though.  My dream is he takes this as a pet project for 2-3 years.  It would be the ultimate swan song, unless you consider winning the WC with Brazil an accomplishment.

Love this.

Would just add that Brazil are sitting in the 6th and final direct qualification spot after 6 of 18 games.

It's Brazil, they have never NOT qualified.

But I don't ever recall seeing them struggle this much and we are 30% of the way through. Neymar and Vini are both out and there seems to be a general angst around the team, far from the typical aura of invincibility. Kind of like what Mexico has gone through recently (or I guess still going through).

So while I believe they will figure it out, maybe it's not with Carlo. Maybe staying clear of that mess would be in his best interest.

[The Beaver 2.0]

16 hours ago, Obinna said:

Nearly 48 hours after disaster struck and weirdly I am feeling like this was for the best. Rip the bandaid off and get the next phase started in earnest. Weird coping mechanism? Perhaps, but that's where I am at.

I would bet my home that had we won it would be nothing but chest puffing and delusions of grandeur for months, with take after take about how we are poised to avenge our NL final loss and lift our trophy, or what team we are going to beat up on in the Group Stage of Copa America to advance. 

Instead, we lost so now it's sober second thoughts, player depth questions, and general panic. Same team, same group of players, but very different narrative moving forward. 

But if we are thinking of 2026 this was probably the best thing to happen to us, isn't it? I would rather us get punched in the teeth now to knock some sense into us, so that we can take an honest look in the mirror at some real issues, instead of not addressing these issues, holding onto the old guard too long, keeping Biello around (good lord), etc. 

Is it just me?

I totally agree. As a few of you have pointed out, there are some fundamental issues with this team that need to be addressed, and a win against Jamaica on Tuesday might have distracted us from that task.  A bit of humility, a bit of adversity, a bit of re-setting the mindset is needed here.  I feel the guys legit wanted to bring glory home, for us as much as for them, but also mostly for how they'd feel as the warriors bringing victory for our country. That is all fine and good, but tactics and smart football went out the door, and we need more discipline, cohesion, and humility. Humility = play the roles we are asked to play, stick to the game plan, play for each other (i.e. brotherhood), but still find times within this framework to express ourselves.  

This result does not let the CSA off the hook with some sort of middling plan. Biello does not get the permanent job, for instance. ETC.  

One step back so we can take two forward.

Edited November 24, 2023 by The Beaver 2.0

[Watchmen]

38 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Love this.

Would just add that Brazil are sitting in the 6th and final direct qualification spot after 6 of 18 games.

It's Brazil, they have never NOT qualified.

But I don't ever recall seeing them struggle this much and we are 30% of the way through. Neymar and Vini are both out and there seems to be a general angst around the team, far from the typical aura of invincibility. Kind of like what Mexico has gone through recently (or I guess still going through).

So while I believe they will figure it out, maybe it's not with Carlo. Maybe staying clear of that mess would be in his best interest.

For the 2002 tournament, they finished tied for 3rd in qualifying and only 3 points up on Columbia in 6th/missing the tournament, and lost 6 times during qualifying. Then they won the World Cup so it kind of gets forgotten.

[El Diego]

Brazil's interim manager (Fernando Diniz) is probably the most interesting manager in the world, at least at the highest level. I would recommend anyone to look up articles and videos of his playing philosophy, especially if you are one of those who lament that soccer has become too structured and there is no more creativity at the highest levels. He also just won the Copa Libertadores so he's not just some romantic. It's actually really interesting because some people say that Malmo incorporate some of his ideas (Derek Cornelius connection there).

That being said, his style is not something that seems immediately transferable to a NT. I haven't watched Brazil since he took over so I won't sit here and act like I know what the problem is, but I do think it is obvious that he is not a pragmatic stop gap type manager. He is the type to stick to his beliefs and those beliefs take time to implement. So while he was the hottest Brazilian name when he was appointed interim, the appointment to me made no sense -- unless Brazil planned to stick with him for a long time. I'm really curious to see what Brazil is actually going to do going forward. I think the most interesting thing as a fan would be if Diniz got a job at a big European club, would love to see his brand get a chance at that stage.

[Stryker911]

Listened to the Footy prime podcast after the Jamaica loss, makes me realize how bad of a coach Jimmy Brennan must have been at York. He is the only person i have heard that thought Biellos subs make sense. 

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Listened to the Footy prime podcast after the Jamaica loss, makes me realize how bad of a coach Jimmy Brennan must have been at York. He is the only person i have heard that thought Biellos subs make sense. 

Well if we're being honest, there are still lots of people here that also think bringing in Osorio is still a good idea, so Brennan is definitely not alone there.

Some were also fully onboard with Kaye, as well as Vitoria and Borjan starting matches.  We'll never all agree on everything including formations and players, and throw in some club bias.

[SoccMan]

6 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Listened to the Footy prime podcast after the Jamaica loss, makes me realize how bad of a coach Jimmy Brennan must have been at York. He is the only person i have heard that thought Biellos subs make sense. 

They have three former pros on their podcast and two of them Brennan and Forest constantly lament especially Forest I find , that no teams here in Canada have hired them. After listening to that podcast a few times it doesn’t surprise me why no one has . I found both of these guys clueless and Brennan showed how clueless he was when he coached York in the CPL. Moreover , what is Footy prime you listen to it and it seems the last thing they really want to talk about is soccer . If it’s a soccer podcast you want to listen too Footy prime is not it .