Friendly - Canada vs Uruguay - Tuesday, September 27th - 12 pm Eastern / 9 am Pacific

[Unnamed Trialist]

Comments about Johnston: anyone back in a three-man defence needs support. Miller had Adekugbe, Johnston had Laryea....then Hoillet. Say no more. 

I cut him some slack. 

Eustaquio missed some really easy passes in dangerous positions as well, again, has a lot to do how you are supported in the middle, the pressure you feel. 

Defending free kicks and high balls: we were weak at this in the Octagonal as well. Borjan made a few point-blank saves when rivals, and not always tall rivals, got to balls and headed hard (McKennie in Hamilton). Have to put a body on the man first, a bump or pressure when the ball is in the air, but not a foul, then go for the ball. 

Our corner kicks: I find all the bitching here about our set pieces to be totally outdated, thinking you are going to score on a corner--well folks, that is not modern football. Get with it. 

Just as useful to take a short corner in control and work a play, for various reasons. One being that defending a corner, the defence gets set and has time to do it. Another being the defence then comes out to catch you offside, and you then have 6-8 metres behind them for the new cross coming in from the guy near the wing receiving it. Another: on a short corner you may be able to let your quality headers, strikers or CBs take priority in the box, the others can be outside for rebounds or to cover a counter. 

We get corners because we have wide play, so I appreciate that is a positive in our game. But it is not an effective part of our attack. While the possession yesterday was an interesting sign of trying to take the game to the rival, our corners did not seem to be us getting dangerously to the end line and being blocked (mostly because Davies was not on the wing).

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 hours ago, Sal333 said:

I now understand why Nancy uses Johnston as a RWB in Montreal and not as a LCB. That goal by Nunez was not the first time Johnston left his man unmarked. A while before that goal Nunez was left alone in front of Borjan. It was when Nunez shot the ball over the net. Again it was Johnston who did not cover his man. There were a couple of other times Johnston was loose on his defensive coverage. Nancy prefers Waterman as LCB in Montreal. The kid has height, is good in aerial duels and - don't shoot me for saying it - I realize now is better defensively than Johnston. I think Herdman prefers Johnston because he is more mobile than Waterman but I think it's time he may have to rethink that plan or at least talk to Nancy about his reasoning for Johnston at RWB and Waterman at LCB.

A little confused about this part of your post.

First, Johnston was playing RCB, Miller was the LCB, where he plays for Montreal. Waterman plays the RCB position normally at that club.

Second, for the goal, Johnston was marking (maybe a difference in definition) Nunez fine.  He just got beat in the air.  (I agree he marked him poorly for the chance earlier. He was watching the ball, see below.)

I actually have a problem with what Vitoria did for the goal.  There was no one else close to him in the box and he had Miller between him and the ball.  He needs to have that awareness from the throw-in and go help the smaller RCB against the taller striker.  He was watching the ball and marking space, a space that Borjan had covered because, again, no other Uruguay player was around. If you have 3 at the back, one advantage is the centre man is supposed to be an extra man that can moved to help, especially in the air if he is the tall guy.

Nunez has pace and height, you put Waterman there, he gets done for pace more often and again someone is supposed to rotate over and help.  And you lose the second wave of crossing you get with Johnston.

 

I agree with a lot of your points on Davies.

Edited September 28, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[El Hombre]

As a public service to John Herdman and his staff, I have just gone through this thread and compiled the following notes for his consideration:

1) Alphonso Davies was both the best and worst player on the pitch.
2) Our defense will likely get overrun by Belgium and Croatia, but we should also play more attacking players.
3) While the rules limit your substitutions, you should still ensure all 26 players in camp touch the field, especially for sentimental reasons like they once played in that country.
4) Larin, who has scored twice against both the US and Mexico in the last calendar year, is an unviable option up front, while Ugbo is the key (despite missing a sitter against mighty Qatar).
5) Simon Eaddy should definitely not be our set-piece taker going forward.

Hopefully I captured it all correctly.

[Sal333]

37 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

A little confused about this part of your post.

First, Johnston was playing RCB, Miller was the LCB, where he plays for Montreal. Waterman plays the RCB position normally at that club.

Second, for the goal, Johnston was marking (maybe a difference in definition) Nunez fine.  He just got beat in the air.  (I agree he marked him poorly for the chance earlier. He was watching the ball, see below.)

I actually have a problem with what Vitoria did for the goal.  There was no one else close to him in the box and he had Miller between him and the ball.  He needs to have that awareness from the throw-in and go help the smaller RCB against the taller striker.  He was watching the ball and marking space, a space that Borjan had covered because, again, no other Uruguay player was around. If you have 3 at the back, one advantage is the centre man is supposed to be an extra man that can moved to help, especially in the air if he is the tall guy.

Nunez has pace and height, you put Waterman there, he gets done for pace more often and again some is supposed to rotate over and help.  And you lose the second wave of crossing you get with Johnston.

 

I agree with a lot of your points on Davies.

I'm going through a couple of weeks of insomnia. Sorry, that's A typo. I meant to say Nancy plays Johnston as a RWB and not a RCB.

If you look at the replay, Johnston misjudges the height and strength of the arc and first approaches the ball and then realizes his mistake and tries to back up.. That was one mistake but there was a second error on his part. He was too far from Nunez from the start.

As for Waterman not having pace, I don't remember him ever being burnt by pace. His positioning for Montreal is excellent. Of course the MLS doesn't have Nunez type of pace but Waterman is very reliable when it comes to defense. He can play all three CB positions but Nancy uses him as a RCB even though he has Johnston. My guess is Nancy doesn't totally trust Johnston's defensive play - not as much as Waterman's. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Sal333

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, Sal333 said:

I'm going through a couple of weeks of insomnia. Sorry, that's A typo. I meant to say Nancy plays Johnston as a RWB and not a RCB.

If you look at the replay, Johnston misjudges the height and strength of the arc and first approaches the ball and then realizes his mistake and tries to back up.. That was one mistake but there was a second error on his part. He was too far from Nunez from the start.

As for Waterman not having pace, I don't remember him being burnt by pace. His positioning for Montreal is excellent. Of course the MLS doesn't have Nunez type of pace but Waterman is very reliable when it comes to defense. He can play all three CB positions but Nancy uses him as a RCB even though he has Johnston. My guess is Nancy doesn't totally trust Johnston's defensive play - not as much as Waterman's. 

Or Nancy wants Johnston's crossing and even goals up the field more and has another capable player to play RCB at a MLS level. 

I watched it back before I posted. For me whatever Johnston does, short of fouling, is not enough alone against, Darwin Nunez, who has 3 inches and a lot of high level heading experience on him.  He needed help and it was available.   That is what you expect when you play smaller, ball-playing centre backs in a back three.

[CanadaFan123]

14 hours ago, fookisan said:

How is Laryea so bad ever since joining NFC. 
His attitude isn't great either when Eustaquio made a pass to him and he dribbled out of touch and started to gesture as to blame instead of taking ownership of his piss poor play. 
 

Seemed to look insecure and low on confidence. We’ve all been there after a poor touch or two. Against a higher level opponent it weighs on you as well.

He’s quality and we know he can be better. Just a rough day at the office.

[Shway]

12 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

In a friendly less than two months out from the WC? 

Did you see Man Utd during some Fergie seasons? A lot of ugly wins, but a win is still a win is all I’m saying. 

Ill always want the team that can grind out an ugly win vs losing pretty.
- Signed Arsenal fan since 00”. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Our corner kicks: I find all the bitching here about our set pieces to be totally outdated, thinking you are going to score on a corner--well folks, that is not modern football. Get with it. 

 

Surely you are on a wind-up with this take?  Goals from corners are up in the Premier League, for instance, 13.6% of goals came from corners last season.  The top teams were Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal with 15, 15, and 13.  Those were the easy stats to look up and we could face around 10 Premier League players in our group games. 

But in Europe, off the top of my head, West Ham United (of all teams) got to the Europa League semi-final scoring goals from corners in the knockout rounds and group stage.  Liverpool do not get by Inter Milan or Benifica in the Champions League without goals from corners. 

Maybe it is not what you like but it is certainly part of the modern game and part of the game played by the players we will be facing.

Edited September 28, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Gian-Luca]

In fairness to Laryea, while he didn’t have the greatest game from an attacking perspective, the passes to him were largely crap, being either too far over his head or behind him so that he had to circle back to pick up the ball destroying any momentum. When he is at his most effective as an attacking player it is usually as a fullback coming up late up the field with his great speed (e.g. Osorio’s 2nd goal against Nashville in his first game back), he doesn’t quite have the Tajon or Davies “terrify the fuck out of you” one on one skills - and especially not when he has to run backwards to get the ball in the first place. 

[jonovision]

57 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Seemed to look insecure and low on confidence. We’ve all been there after a poor touch or two. Against a higher level opponent it weighs on you as well.

He’s quality and we know he can be better. Just a rough day at the office.

He hasn't been in a positive footballing environment in like a year, other than previous Canada camps. That can't be good for a player.

[Unnamed Trialist]

59 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Surely you are on a wind-up with this take?  Goals from corners are up in the Premier League, for instance, 13.6% of goals came from corners last season.  The top teams were Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal with 15, 15, and 13.  Those were the easy stats to look up and we could face around 10 Premier League players in our group games. 

But in Europe, off the top of my head, West Ham United (of all teams) got to the Europa League semi-final scoring goals from corners in the knockout rounds and group stage.  Liverpool do not get by Inter Milan or Benifica in the Champions League without goals from corners. 

Maybe it is not what you like but it is certainly part of the modern game and part of the game played by the players we will be facing.

I'll bite, that is fine.

First of all: anything that can be trained and can get you on the board is a good thing, I do agree. Train it all, train for everything. 

Then, curious: how do they do it now so that the best teams are getting them, especially? Or, how are the good teams doing them to get results? Can we learn from them?

We scored 23 goals in the Octagonal. Not sure how many from corners, but we had more goals than another team (and best defence). If we want to match the 14%, assuming we want to play like an EPL team against other EPL teams, which is debateable, would mean that 3 of those could or should have been from corners. 

What I am saying: it is a rather huge assumption we should play and train like a PL team playing against other PL teams. It would probably be a bad idea in Concacaf, not necessarily a solution for the World Cup, and an even worse idea considering we don't have anyone playing in EPL who might have experience executing this corner kick golden calf that you and so many others are on to.

And it is overly obstinate to think we have to score from direct corners when we've proven we can score other ways. In fact, we perfectly well could and should have scored a few other ways yesterday, we were in the box, had shots, had scrambles. Had possession deep and Phonzie lost it. But no: obsess over the corners, the poor delivery on this or that. 

You are not even recognizing that English play is conducive to getting more corners, corners are celebrated by fans effusively still, and so there is greater emphasis on the corner--leading, logically, to a possibly higher % of goals being scored from them. All England biases. 

Why not, if all options should be explored---why not use the corner to continue out with possession play and look for a way to get the ball on goal? Train the direct corner, train the short corner and the indirect corner too, wouldn't you think?

And stop with this harping constantly about who is or isn't prepping us for corners or how bad we do with them.

Edit, Octagonal goals:

Corner: first vs. Panamá, which was an OG. 

Penalty: 1 vs. Honduras

Direct Free Kick: 0

Indirect Free Kick (1 or more touches after a FK): 1 after a longer buildup, 2nd vs. El Salvador; vs. Costa Rica; 2nd vs. Mexico

Open play from outside the box: 1, Adekugbe vs the US.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[BearcatSA]

Re:  Miller foul

I've seen very similar challenges go uncalled, others called.  So be it.  However, my bigger concern is the threat of conceding free kicks in dangerous shooting locations against the likes of Modric and De Bruyne, et al.  Our defending requires discipline and containment as opposed to going for a clear cut, "sexy" challenge.  

On the play in question (iirc, b/c I can't find a highlight of the foul to review), the Uruguay player was dribbling in an angle away from our goal and I felt Miller was in a decent position to keep rodeo-clowning him away from a dangerous position.  I just didn't think he needed to make that challenge.

Here's a fact, Jack:  we are not going to get breaks on calls vs the European big guns in our group on this world stage.  They will get plenty of "reputation" fouls going their way and it's going to take really good reffing (which I doubt will happen) to keep things in check (instead of getting CONCACAF-ed by the reffing, we'll be getting AFC-ed or CONMEBOL-ed instead).  So, in the same manner that attackers shouldn't be a "hero" on the dribble, defenders need to do likewise in their jobs and trust their teammates and coaching.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by BearcatSA
Their/there/they're

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are not even recognizing that English play is conducive to getting more corners, corners are celebrated by fans effusively still, and so there is greater emphasis on the corner--leading, logically, to a possibly higher % of goals being scored from them. All England biases. .

I took stats from places I know how to find quickly, so yes they were from one league, a league that will provide some the best players we will face.  I sign-posted that when I said it, so people can take my biases into account.  

You ignored the European football successes last year from corners to pretend I said we should be trying to get 14% of goals from corners.  You then fought that strawman for a few paragraphs. 

I want goals from everywhere and anywhere, which includes being better at corners. Which you say you want as well, but that does not match up with "thinking you are going to score on a corner--well folks, that is not modern football. Get with it. "

If you want to change that stance, just say you overstated your point, and you don't appreciate the whining. 

 

But are you really saying fans don't celebrate goals "effusively" when Barcelona score from a corner? 

https://barcatvplus.fcbarcelona.com/en/videos/729229/fc-barcelona-scored-no-less-than-five-times-from-corners-this-season

Yep, just sitting on their hands there, even when multiple goals up. 

Or are you just blocking corners out because Barcelona was embarrassed by one that capped off them blowing a 3-0 first game advantage in a Champions League semi-final? 😉

Edited September 28, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[GasPed]

6 hours ago, Sal333 said:

And for the love of God get him away from those corners. He is terrible.

Agree with almost everything in your post except for this.  Davies is not entirely consistent with his corners but his in-swinging left footer is generally good (though sometimes he hits it too low), and when it's on, it can be a big weapon (ask Panama).  He hits it really hard, and it's very difficult for the D and Keeper to handle.

[Ottawafan]

2 hours ago, Shway said:

Did you see Man Utd during some Fergie seasons? A lot of ugly wins, but a win is still a win is all I’m saying. 

Ill always want the team that can grind out an ugly win vs losing pretty.
- Signed Arsenal fan since 00”. 

It's a friendly, a warm up for the WC.  How you play is more important than a meaningless victory.

 

It's like poker... would you rather win the hand or play the hand correctly?

[Ottawafan]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Surely you are on a wind-up with this take?  Goals from corners are up in the Premier League, for instance, 13.6% of goals came from corners last season.  The top teams were Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal with 15, 15, and 13.  Those were the easy stats to look up and we could face around 10 Premier League players in our group games. 

But in Europe, off the top of my head, West Ham United (of all teams) got to the Europa League semi-final scoring goals from corners in the knockout rounds and group stage.  Liverpool do not get by Inter Milan or Benifica in the Champions League without goals from corners. 

Maybe it is not what you like but it is certainly part of the modern game and part of the game played by the players we will be facing.

All I want from mu corner kicks is to get the ball over the head of the first defender.  Not too much to ask for.

Give the guys in the middle a chance!

[Rivaldo]

I've never seen this much media coverage of the men's team. There was even a good, thorough segment on CBC's "The World at Six".

https://cbc.mc.tritondigital.com/CBC_W6_P/media/w6/w6-AlPK0Ni5-20220927.mp3

it starts at 16:25.

[The Beaver 2.0]

Has anyone been following the post-match summary from the Uruguayan media? Just curious to know what they might be saying.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Surely you are on a wind-up with this take?  Goals from corners are up in the Premier League, for instance, 13.6% of goals came from corners last season.  The top teams were Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal with 15, 15, and 13.  Those were the easy stats to look up and we could face around 10 Premier League players in our group games. 

But in Europe, off the top of my head, West Ham United (of all teams) got to the Europa League semi-final scoring goals from corners in the knockout rounds and group stage.  Liverpool do not get by Inter Milan or Benifica in the Champions League without goals from corners. 

Maybe it is not what you like but it is certainly part of the modern game and part of the game played by the players we will be facing.

Fact, we did not score a single one in the Octagonal and won the group, with most goals scored. So we did not need corner goals for our greatest accomplishment. 

But indirect free kicks, we were extremely effective on, scoring goals and scoring them in critical moments. 

All these Simon Eaddy ha-ha posts here are childish and only you are getting your back up over it.

[kacbru]

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All these Simon Eaddy ha-ha posts here are childish and only you are getting your back up over it.

Yes, it's childish, but I still enjoy them.  An experiment...

Fart...

Who didn't have a slight giggle inside?

[keysersoze]

I think despite the score there were more positives than negatives about the performance. It was a microcosm of where the team has come over the qualifying run and what weaknesses still exist.

Positives:

I think the team continually looks more comfortable in possession and actually creating chances and meaningful offensive momentum. The ball moves quicker and more precisely than ever before. Sure, there is still some cheap giveaways and heavy touches, but I find it's becoming less common place and they are dealing with pressure/pressing a lot more confidently.

The overall depth of the team especially in attack. I thought Kone was excellent in his first game with the NT, but not so much in the next two. In this game he looked outstanding. Yeah, it wasn't an A+ Uruguay team playing their hearts out, but it was impressive. Having that type of midfield player who can be incisive with all the talent on the wings is so key to the attack. The ultra attacking lineups we can put out are extremely intriguing. Obviously you can't do it game in and game out or for a full 90 minutes, but in the right situations that is one hell of a break glass in case of emergency option.

It definitely wasn't perfect and there were moments when it broke down, but I think the press has continually gotten more effective for Canada. The team has no quit in terms of work rate and it's a huge positive especially against teams who aren't confident in possession or just slow.

Negatives:

While I think the team has gotten much better at creating chances, I think the finish rate simply isn't clinical enough against top competition. In a World Cup situation there will be a lot of games where you only have a handful of legitimate chances for goals and I'm not confident Canada can consistently take advantage of this.

It ties into my previous point and I'm sure it's been discussed to death, but I think both taking and defending set pieces is arguably the teams biggest issue. There simply isn't anyone on the team who is superior in the air. That a play to Vitoria on the far post is the teams best set piece is not exactly comforting.

Overall, I'm really looking forward to this run of matches against consistently quality non Concacaf teams. This really is just the beginning of things to come for Canada so even if it doesn't go great, it's an amazing learning opportunity. 

[Floortom]

 

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

First why go back to that post, not the last one, and still not address the success of corners in Europe last year. 

And are you back to saying Canada should not work on corners?

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Fact, we did not score a single one in the Octagonal and won the group, with most goals scored. So we did not need corner goals for our greatest accomplishment. 

What a strange way to look at football or any endeavour.  You don't need something at the next level (World Cup and beyond) because you didn't at a lower one. That is as strange a take as: don't expect to score from corners in modern football.  

We need to up our game in most every way, if we don't want just qualifying for the World Cup to be "our greatest accomplishment." That includes corners. 

35 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All these Simon Eaddy ha-ha posts here are childish and only you are getting your back up over it.

I could take or leave the spam but what are you saying I am alone in getting my back up over? The Simon Eaddy thing - I have never mentioned it until now to my knowledge.  About us being poor at corners? - it concerns me and a lot of other people. 

You have made a lot of false and silly statements - maybe just walk it back and say what we should do with corners without them.  

[The Ref]

1 hour ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Has anyone been following the post-match summary from the Uruguayan media? Just curious to know what they might be saying.

Here is some reporting for your enjoyment.

https://www.diariolibre.com/deportes/futbol/2022/09/27/uruguay-vence-a-canada-alonso-esperara-por-araujo/2091091

[jordan]

For Trivia. 

Simon Eaddy is the only player to ever win the OFC Champions league and CPSL Title.