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CPL 2022 Season Attendance


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8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Steeper drop from 12,000+ last season than they may have been expecting so I suspect they'll have a close look at whether the pay what you want angle is worth repeating again in future in marketing terms. Doubt it added more than 1000 to the gate so it probably all boils down to how many of them turn into repeat customers.

I don't think you can really compare the two events though. Last year's home opener was 1) the team's first-ever home match, 2) the first big outdoor event at Lansdowne with minimal COVID restrictions in two years, and 3) on a crazy nice day in peak July summer weather. Of course you're going to have a lot more people go to an event like that than they will for a season kick-off of a now-known quantity on a blustery/overcast/slightly rainy day in early April. Besides, a ~5,000 attendance figure is about on par with what the Fury drew consistently, so I think this just speaks to continued interest for footie in Ottawa. 

All in all, I'd call yesterday a good start. 

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3 hours ago, Atlantic said:

There was quite a group sitting on the hill which was disappointing to see.

Are you able to watch for free on that hill? Seems like a massive oversight by the stadium designers, if true.

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21 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

With the added vip seating across from the main grandstand and the supporters section on the end 4K is likely pretty accurate.

 

 

I would say it's 3K. The upper deck, which would make it 4K is never open. 

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6 hours ago, narduch said:

Anyone see the Edmonton number?

Doubt anything in or close to three digits will even get reported now the Fath brothers have left the building and the usual suspects on here would no doubt try to shout down any discussion about what's happening there. Decent amount of chat on twitter from people like Steven Sandor and Jeff Paulus in response to this tweet describing what the issues are but nothing in terms of insight that hasn't been posted multiple times previously:

 

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I'm fairly new to this board and, reading through this thread, it seems like there's some historical controversy that I'd rather ignore.  My thoughts on CPL attendance early in the season are:

1.  I'm disappointed that the CPL website once again doesn't appear to be regularly reporting attendance.  They did in year one for every game but not afterward.  It makes it very difficult to track or discuss this important aspect of the league.

b)  This is the first year since year one where covid should not be a significant factor in attendance.  I'm really curious to see how things go in the stands.

Three:  The league is no longer brand new so this year's numbers should start to show real levels of support for the various teams rather than the novelty factor.

iv)  Having followed soccer in Canada for decades, and having seen some of the early statements put out by the CPL, teams will need to draw an average of something like 5000 to 6000 for long term viability.  People can put positive or negative shadings on any given game's attendance but the cold, hard math says any crowd over 5000 is fine and any crowd under 5000 is a concern.

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22 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I'm fairly new to this board and, reading through this thread, it seems like there's some historical controversy that I'd rather ignore.  My thoughts on CPL attendance early in the season are:

1.  I'm disappointed that the CPL website once again doesn't appear to be regularly reporting attendance.  They did in year one for every game but not afterward.  It makes it very difficult to track or discuss this important aspect of the league.

b)  This is the first year since year one where covid should not be a significant factor in attendance.  I'm really curious to see how things go in the stands.

Three:  The league is no longer brand new so this year's numbers should start to show real levels of support for the various teams rather than the novelty factor.

iv)  Having followed soccer in Canada for decades, and having seen some of the early statements put out by the CPL, teams will need to draw an average of something like 5000 to 6000 for long term viability.  People can put positive or negative shadings on any given game's attendance but the cold, hard math says any crowd over 5000 is fine and any crowd under 5000 is a concern.

I agree, there is a minimum level of support that teams in this league need to survive. People can put on rose coloured glasses all they want, but it won't stop teams like Edmonton from failing. My team Halifax has proven in 2019 and 2021 that it can pull in the crowds necessary to succeed. Likewise for Hamilton. York and Edmonton are disasters. The league should stop looking to establish teams in the immediate Toronto and Montreal area and focus on cities/regions that have their own identities separate from said centres. I would put more emphasis on Quebec City, Saskatoon, London, and Kitchener-Waterloo, then I would on Mississauga and Laval.

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4 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I'm fairly new to this board and, reading through this thread, it seems like there's some historical controversy that I'd rather ignore.  My thoughts on CPL attendance early in the season are:

 

Your B point explains the first point, with covid mucking things up what was the point of religiously reporting the numbers?  It wasnt going to mean much. Hopefully that changes.  #3 This summer should be a good indicator, things are getting back to normal, we started the season on time, wont have a compressed season with tons of midweek games.  There has actually been some media promotion about Valor this year.  Hopefully we can all get to some games and enjoy the local team the CPL has given us.  

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2 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I agree, there is a minimum level of support that teams in this league need to survive. People can put on rose coloured glasses all they want, but it won't stop teams like Edmonton from failing. My team Halifax has proven in 2019 and 2021 that it can pull in the crowds necessary to succeed. Likewise for Hamilton. York and Edmonton are disasters. The league should stop looking to establish teams in the immediate Toronto and Montreal area and focus on cities/regions that have their own identities separate from said centres. I would put more emphasis on Quebec City, Saskatoon, London, and Kitchener-Waterloo, then I would on Mississauga and Laval.

I agree that the CPL should avoid the MLS metros.  (What they really should have done is had the three MLS reserve teams join the league.  It would have given them a presence in those markets without the need to compete, three guaranteed-viable teams, and a good relationship up the pyramid for players.  But they didn't like the optics.)

I initially thought that the sweet spot for the CPL would be the largest remaining cities.  Only Ottawa is looking reasonable so far for the next three, however, with Calgary getting a coolish response and Edmonton failing.  Maybe there's still a sense of "we're too big for this league"?

Halifax has really showed the small market potential but Vitoria has missed out on being Halifax west.  Probably because of the difference in stadium, I think.  They are actually doing well for the size of the market but, unfortunately, not well enough for the finances to work.

Hamilton has demonstrated that the CPL can work in a bit of a larger market with an oversized stadium.  Winnipeg is trying, too, but it remains to be seen how successful they will be.  They feel like they are almost there but not quite.

I am coming around to the idea of expansion to the slightly smaller cities like the ones you listed provided (big item) they can go the Halifax route - a cozy, downtown stadium in a city where you are the biggest game in town.  The stadium is a lot more affordable in slightly smaller cities so maybe that's what it takes.  Just not too small because Peterborough (to pick a not completely random city) is not going to average 5000 no matter what.

 

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People forget that for many CPL cities, this is their first foray into professional soccer in decades, and the first attempt at successfully sustaining soccer in their 100+ year history. Soccer is growing in popularity in these cities, but for many, it is still considered a boring sport for pussies. That stigma is going to take decades to go away.

Not every market is going to explode out of the gate like Halifax did. Don't discount organic growth generated by word-of-mouth interest that takes years or decades to happen. Thankfully, the rise of the national team will trickle down to the local CPL clubs and help accelerate the process, but it's still a process.

I would argue that 5 CPL cities (Victoria, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Halifax) are seeing their most successful professional soccer in their cities' history, with a 6th on solid footing compared to the Fury years. Using Calgary as the example I know, no professional club has entered their 4th season, and only one drew better, and those Boomers were gone after 1 year. Calgary had significant buzz building after 2019 that was completely cut off at the knees for 2 years due to the pandemic. It looks like the buzz we had in February 2020 may finally be returning in April 2022....

Would 3500 be considered a failure this year for Cavalry? 4000? 4500? Does Cavalry need to draw an arbitrary number of 5000 per game to be considered successful in the stands? Or can we just allow the club to grow and establish itself in the community, generating more interest each year? 

Are York struggling to have an impact in the stands? Absolutely. Is Edmonton in massive trouble? Yes. Should we over analyze every single crowd for the other 6 clubs? Hell no.

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4 minutes ago, shermanator said:

People forget that for many CPL cities, this is their first foray into professional soccer in decades, and the first attempt at successfully sustaining soccer in their 100+ year history. Soccer is growing in popularity in these cities, but for many, it is still considered a boring sport for pussies. That stigma is going to take decades to go away.

Not every market is going to explode out of the gate like Halifax did. Don't discount organic growth generated by word-of-mouth interest that takes years or decades to happen. Thankfully, the rise of the national team will trickle down to the local CPL clubs and help accelerate the process, but it's still a process.

I would argue that 5 CPL cities (Victoria, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Halifax) are seeing their most successful professional soccer in their cities' history, with a 6th on solid footing compared to the Fury years. Using Calgary as the example I know, no professional club has entered their 4th season, and only one drew better, and those Boomers were gone after 1 year. Calgary had significant buzz building after 2019 that was completely cut off at the knees for 2 years due to the pandemic. It looks like the buzz we had in February 2020 may finally be returning in April 2022....

Would 3500 be considered a failure this year for Cavalry? 4000? 4500? Does Cavalry need to draw an arbitrary number of 5000 per game to be considered successful in the stands? Or can we just allow the club to grow and establish itself in the community, generating more interest each year? 

Are York struggling to have an impact in the stands? Absolutely. Is Edmonton in massive trouble? Yes. Should we over analyze every single crowd for the other 6 clubs? Hell no.

Lack of mainstream exposure also play a huge factor in this. Onesoccer making it to Bell and Rogers cable package like for Telus does would help quite substantially.

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23 hours ago, m-g-williams said:

I don't think you can really compare the two events though. Last year's home opener was 1) the team's first-ever home match, 2) the first big outdoor event at Lansdowne with minimal COVID restrictions in two years, and 3) on a crazy nice day in peak July summer weather. Of course you're going to have a lot more people go to an event like that than they will for a season kick-off of a now-known quantity on a blustery/overcast/slightly rainy day in early April. Besides, a ~5,000 attendance figure is about on par with what the Fury drew consistently, so I think this just speaks to continued interest for footie in Ottawa. 

All in all, I'd call yesterday a good start. 

I was very impressed to see a dozen or so Cavalry supporters with banners and Alberta flag in the far east section of the south stands. Did they really travel 3,000+ km just for the opening match? Chapeau!

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2 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I agree, there is a minimum level of support that teams in this league need to survive. People can put on rose coloured glasses all they want, but it won't stop teams like Edmonton from failing. My team Halifax has proven in 2019 and 2021 that it can pull in the crowds necessary to succeed. Likewise for Hamilton. York and Edmonton are disasters. The league should stop looking to establish teams in the immediate Toronto and Montreal area and focus on cities/regions that have their own identities separate from said centres. I would put more emphasis on Quebec City, Saskatoon, London, and Kitchener-Waterloo, then I would on Mississauga and Laval.

It's not quite that simple. Owners who come forward with the cash have a massive say on "where" they wish to invest. You can't really "make them" lose money somewhere they don't want to go. At the same time, the league seems wise enough to pick it's owners carefully for its most important markets.

Like it or not, the population in the GTA and Montreal Metro does justify looking at putting a club there. Laval "done right" would work, West Island could work among other places - same for GTA. Also, clubs outside those areas are far easier for mainstream media to ignore than in those metros. It's up to those clubs to win to get more attention.

So, you can't just pick one or the other, a mix of both approach is smarter.

As for York, the owner is strong and committed - that's a great start. Outside of soccer, if you really read about what the Woodbine project truly is in its full scope, long term, it's hard not to see York United becoming one of the league most solid club. As I mentioned before, it almost replicating what TFC did - setting shop in its own Liberty Village with future LRT access, GO train station and full range entertainments that will draw tourist while being close to the airport. Long term, York will win.

You need this kind of project for Edmonton with the right owner. Edmonton can easily succeed and the league believe so as well.

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46 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I agree that the CPL should avoid the MLS metros...

Agreed with almost all of that post but think it's important to bear in mind that the Forge's 2019 numbers were almost certainly tickets distributed numbers a lot of the time rather than tickets paid. Think the jury is still out on whether they can consistently hit 5000+ paid there any time soon and on whether a CFL stadium can be made to work for this level of soccer or whether it's a buzz kill as the would be investors in Saskatchewan have suggested.

Have always been of the opinion that the business model CanPL were pushing was overly optimstic on likely levels of fan interest and that they needed to have something geared more towards a break even of 3000 or so focusing on the sorts of smaller markets that also do well on attendance with junior hockey.

Halifax was a pleasant surprise but there need to be several more pleasant surprises.

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17 hours ago, toontownman said:

4936 attendance or 4938? My mind is playing tricks with what the commentator said. Decent turnout on a chilly night at Starlight.

It was freaking miserable all afternoon leading up to the game. To be fair I had hoped for a sellout but with the CWNT game selling out for the next day I think a lot of casuals made their choice.

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1 minute ago, ted said:

It was freaking miserable all afternoon leading up to the game. To be fair I had hoped for a sellout but with the CWNT game selling out for the next day I think a lot of casuals made their choice.

Furthering my point on the importance of mainstream media attention which the CWNT have while Pacific doesn't quite yet

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1 hour ago, shermanator said:

Does Cavalry need to draw an arbitrary number of 5000 per game to be considered successful in the stands? Or can we just allow the club to grow and establish itself in the community, generating more interest each year? 

None of what you wrote about establishing new teams in new cities is wrong.  And we certainly should not waste time analyzing every crowd.

What I've quoted here gets to the heart of the matter, however.  It is not that 5000 is arbitrarily a successful number.  It is that, after watching pro soccer in Canada for decades after the NASL, I've noticed that teams that failed to draw 5000 folded and those that drew at least 5000 at least survived to play another season.  So we lost the whole CSL except the Whitecaps, and we also lost the Aviators, the Storm/Mustangs, the Lynx, and the A-League version of the Toronto Blizzard.  We kept the Whitecaps, the Impact, and the Fury (with a bureaucratic-caused change of ownership, not a franchise failure).

So can we just allow Cavalry to grow and establish itself in the community, as you ask?  If they draw at least 5000, history says yes.  If they don't, history says only as long as their owner is willing to sustain losses.

I don't actually care how big or small the CPL crowds are.  I just want the league to succeed.  History says that happens at 5000, however, so I'd really like to see 5000.

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26 minutes ago, Kingston said:

None of what you wrote about establishing new teams in new cities is wrong.  And we certainly should not waste time analyzing every crowd.

What I've quoted here gets to the heart of the matter, however.  It is not that 5000 is arbitrarily a successful number.  It is that, after watching pro soccer in Canada for decades after the NASL, I've noticed that teams that failed to draw 5000 folded and those that drew at least 5000 at least survived to play another season.  So we lost the whole CSL except the Whitecaps, and we also lost the Aviators, the Storm/Mustangs, the Lynx, and the A-League version of the Toronto Blizzard.  We kept the Whitecaps, the Impact, and the Fury (with a bureaucratic-caused change of ownership, not a franchise failure).

So can we just allow Cavalry to grow and establish itself in the community, as you ask?  If they draw at least 5000, history says yes.  If they don't, history says only as long as their owner is willing to sustain losses.

I don't actually care how big or small the CPL crowds are.  I just want the league to succeed.  History says that happens at 5000, however, so I'd really like to see 5000.

I don't know, I keep seeing the "historical" argument being brought up from the CSL/NASL years. I don't dismiss it but CPL is very much so set up far differently.

Let's just start with the owners, Cavalry owners are very rich and own the grounds...this is a significant advantage. (+ expensive tickets 😉). The league seems to have found way to diversify its revenue streams and working on improving on that front. Add the media deal with MediaPro + CanMNT going to the world cup and you seriously can make the case that the league is going to be fine.

If the league was similar to what was done in the old days, COVID would have killed it.

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