Jacen Russell-Rowe

[anthony7]

18 minutes ago, narduch said:

Vanney may possibly be one of the most over-rated coaches ever.

And he was also bad at transitioning youth players into useful professionals. 

I think your mixing up Vanney with Bradley? Please tell me what Bob Bradley accomplished with LAFC? All I see him doing right now is ruining the club I love and making us the laughing stock of the league. Greg Vanney did the best he could with the youth and tried to put them in situations to succeed. Vanney didn't try to screw around with the young guys and experiment with them in different positions, costing us games in the process and damaging the youngsters confidence. Vanney was able to take the players he had at his disposal and get the best out of them. I guarantee you if Vanney was TFC manager now we would be in a playoff spot right now.

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, anthony7 said:

I think your mixing up Vanney with Bradley? Please tell me what Bob Bradley accomplished with LAFC? All I see him doing right now is ruining the club I love and making us the laughing stock of the league. Greg Vanney did the best he could with the youth and tried to put them in situations to succeed. Vanney didn't try to screw around with the young guys and experiment with them in different positions, costing us games in the process and damaging the youngsters confidence. Vanney was able to take the players he had at his disposal and get the best out of them. I guarantee you if Vanney was TFC manager now we would be in a playoff spot right now.

Vanney screwed over the young guys too, just differently.

The jury is still out on Bradley at TFC. Manning is a far bigger issue

[anthony7]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Vanney screwed over the young guys too, just differently.

The jury is still out on Bradley at TFC. Manning is a far bigger issue

Please explain how Vanney screwed over the young guys?

[ddoouugg]

8 minutes ago, anthony7 said:

Please explain how Vanney screwed over the young guys?

Vanney usually brought in a bunch of overpaid chump american journeymen who contributed nothing except taking away time from young canadians

[anthony7]

3 hours ago, ddoouugg said:

Vanney usually brought in a bunch of overpaid chump american journeymen who contributed nothing except taking away time from young canadians

Your completely wrong on this one. The majority of those moves were due to the incompetence of upper management. That Dom Dwyer deal which was laughable only transpired due to Bill Manning & Ali Curtis. Remember, at one point Greg Vanney was screaming for wingers for a long time and finally got Benezet. He played pivotal role in getting us to MLS Cup 2019. Ok, with Patrick Mullins, Hamilton wasn't doing jack shit and we needed to trade him. Unfortunately, we got Mullins. Your not going to win all the trades but I would rather try something new than stick with the same product that's providing no output. In terms of taking time away from Canadians, please tell me which players lost out on time due to Greg Vanney's actions? Vanney eased the youngsters in correctly, and wouldn't put them in situations to make fools of themselves.  Some of these youngsters had their best moments due to the way Vanney eased them in. Remember, Jayden Nelson's debut against NYC or Ralph Priso's excellent performance against Inter Miami all in 2020? If the youngsters were ready to play big minutes they would play them. Now in 2022, we see a lot of these youngsters aren't ready for big roles on this team. You have to remember, Greg Vanney didn't have full control when it came to transfers and other stuff. Guess who does have full control with concerns to transfers & big decisions and has done nothing but fuck up my club? Bob Bradley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited July 4, 2022 by anthony7

[gigi riva]

I am just glad to see Canadian youngsters getting starting time on American MLS teams

[solsous]

9 hours ago, VinceA said:

How was he? Saw he was subbed off in the 46th.

I was wondering the same thing.  I was unable to watch the game, because of dumb MLS restrictions.  If he was subbed for a non-injury issue, that's on Porter.  Like I said last week, Porter and many other coaches like him, are poor in developing young players.

[Sal333]

9 hours ago, VinceA said:

How was he? Saw he was subbed off in the 46th.

He made one exceptional play that @El Hombrealluded to. He took matters into his own hands, muscled an opponent off the ball in his defensive zone and made a gorgeous 50-60 yard pass to an attacking mate. Other than that the rest of the half he either wasn't in a good attacking position or his team mates didn't see him. I like the player very much but I think his glaring weakness is aerial battles. He shies away from them.

[El Hombre]

42 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

He made one exceptional play that @El Hombrealluded to. He took matters into his own hands, muscled an opponent off the ball in his defensive zone and made a gorgeous 50-60 yard pass to an attacking mate. Other than that the rest of the half he either wasn't in a good attacking position or his team mates didn't see him. I like the player very much but I think his glaring weakness is aerial battles. He shies away from them.

I also saw he took a rather tough tumble into the stands a little bit before half.  Not sure if that played into his substitution at all.

[El Hombre]

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Your completely wrong on this one. The majority of those moves were due to the incompetence of upper management. That Dom Dwyer deal which was laughable only transpired due to Bill Manning & Ali Curtis. Remember, at one point Greg Vanney was screaming for wingers for a long time and finally got Benezet. He played pivotal role in getting us to MLS Cup 2019. Ok, with Patrick Mullins, Hamilton wasn't doing jack shit and we needed to trade him. Unfortunately, we got Mullins. Your not going to win all the trades but I would rather try something new than stick with the same product that's providing no output. In terms of taking time away from Canadians, please tell me which players lost out on time due to Greg Vanney's actions? Vanney eased the youngsters in correctly, and wouldn't put them in situations to make fools of themselves.  Some of these youngsters had their best moments due to the way Vanney eased them in. Remember, Jayden Nelson's debut against NYC or Ralph Priso's excellent performance against Inter Miami all in 2020? If the youngsters were ready to play big minutes they would play them. Now in 2022, we see a lot of these youngsters aren't ready for big roles on this team. You have to remember, Greg Vanney didn't have full control when it came to transfers and other stuff. Guess who does have full control with concerns to transfers & big decisions and has done nothing but fuck up my club? Bob Bradley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a couple rebuttals for the numerous errors you've posted recently:

1 - "Hamilton wasn't doing jack shit" - Even though he was traded in early July of 2019, Hamilton ended up being 5th on TFC in scoring.  He also did that while playing 623 minutes.  That works out to a goal every 155 minutes.  That would be second on the team only to Jozy who was scoring every 153 minutes.  If Hamilton was doing jack shit, I shudder to think what you thought the rest of the team was doing.

2 - "Vanney eased the youngsters in correctly" - This is only true if correctly = last resort.  Vanney is great at running his guys into the ground.  This is not a great when you build a team around ageing stars.  Guys like Priso and Nelson and Shaffleburg only got starts when the old guys couldn't keep up with the schedule.  This was very evident in the 2020 season where there were often 2 games a week.  Toronto faltered significantly in September/October because of Vanney's insistence to ride his old vets.  The kids got playing time then because there was literally no other choice.

Vanney is a decent "win-now" coach.  Especially if you give him a bunch of high-priced talent like TFC did.  However, that is not a recipe for long-term success or even consistent success.  That is why TFC can go from first overall in 2017 to 19th in 2018.  It looks like the LA Galaxy are falling prey to this as well as they started great but seem to be faltering.  I'm not clued in enough to know exactly why though.

One good barometer of a coach like Vanney is to see where his favourites go after the coach departs.  Every coach has their favourites and seeing whether or not they go on to success after he departs can tell you whether or not they really earned their playing time.  So, here's where some of Vanney's players have gone after his departure in 2020:

Zavaleta - One more season with TFC and then moved to LA Galaxy.  60 minutes of playing time so far.
Delgado - One more season with TFC and then moved to LA Galaxy.
Deleon - One more season with TFC and then retired?
Mullins - One more season with TFC and then retired?
Endoh - One more season with TFC and then Australia for 56 minutes and now out of contract.

All of those guys got more time than Priso or Shaffleburg or Nelson in 2020 and based on what they did afterwards, I don't know if that playing time was on merit or because Vanney was comfortable with them.  Same goes for Fraser who had more playing time than only Zavaleta from the list above.

In Vanney's defence, he did give Laryea a shot.

[Kent]

17 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Guess who does have full control with concerns to transfers & big decisions and has done nothing but fuck up my club? Bob Bradley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I get the sense that you didn't watch TFC's 2021 season. You are talking like Bradley was handed a top 5 team.

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

I get the sense that you didn't watch TFC's 2021 season. You are talking like Bradley was handed a top 5 team.

No No...this downfall all started with Bradley senior, dont interupt a guy when he is on an epic rant.  

Kind of funny looking at SKC and Bunbury leaving them after not getting a senior deal.  This stuff happens, most clubs can only find so much PT for teenagers even if they are so inclined.  TFC signed Kerr, lost JRR, you cant force them into a Next-Pro contract and if they think there are better deals out there..cest la vie.  Hopefully this isnt a flash in the pan and Columbus will treat the kid right.  

[anthony7]

14 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Just a couple rebuttals for the numerous errors you've posted recently:

1 - "Hamilton wasn't doing jack shit" - Even though he was traded in early July of 2019, Hamilton ended up being 5th on TFC in scoring.  He also did that while playing 623 minutes.  That works out to a goal every 155 minutes.  That would be second on the team only to Jozy who was scoring every 153 minutes.  If Hamilton was doing jack shit, I shudder to think what you thought the rest of the team was doing.

2 - "Vanney eased the youngsters in correctly" - This is only true if correctly = last resort.  Vanney is great at running his guys into the ground.  This is not a great when you build a team around ageing stars.  Guys like Priso and Nelson and Shaffleburg only got starts when the old guys couldn't keep up with the schedule.  This was very evident in the 2020 season where there were often 2 games a week.  Toronto faltered significantly in September/October because of Vanney's insistence to ride his old vets.  The kids got playing time then because there was literally no other choice.

Vanney is a decent "win-now" coach.  Especially if you give him a bunch of high-priced talent like TFC did.  However, that is not a recipe for long-term success or even consistent success.  That is why TFC can go from first overall in 2017 to 19th in 2018.  It looks like the LA Galaxy are falling prey to this as well as they started great but seem to be faltering.  I'm not clued in enough to know exactly why though.

One good barometer of a coach like Vanney is to see where his favourites go after the coach departs.  Every coach has their favourites and seeing whether or not they go on to success after he departs can tell you whether or not they really earned their playing time.  So, here's where some of Vanney's players have gone after his departure in 2020:

Zavaleta - One more season with TFC and then moved to LA Galaxy.  60 minutes of playing time so far.
Delgado - One more season with TFC and then moved to LA Galaxy.
Deleon - One more season with TFC and then retired?
Mullins - One more season with TFC and then retired?
Endoh - One more season with TFC and then Australia for 56 minutes and now out of contract.

All of those guys got more time than Priso or Shaffleburg or Nelson in 2020 and based on what they did afterwards, I don't know if that playing time was on merit or because Vanney was comfortable with them.  Same goes for Fraser who had more playing time than only Zavaleta from the list above.

In Vanney's defence, he did give Laryea a shot.

Sorry, your completely wrong with everything you just stated.

1. Let me elaborate on Jordan Hamilton when I stated, "wasn't doing jack shit". As striker or #9 you get judged on how many goals you score and that's fine. Guess what? As a #9 it isn't always about the goals you score its also about the other attributes of your game. Are you linking up with your teammates, can you hold the ball up, what are you doing off ball, can you drop deep and create space and opportunities for others etc..... I'm sorry, but Hamilton wasn't really doing much of that. Fine, Hamilton would score some goals here and there but it was not prolific enough to warrant keeping him and to look past the other the things that were missing in his game. I also want to say I like Hamilton and was rooting for him and i hope he gets back into MLS somehow because he could be a good depth piece if he adds more to his game.

2. I disagree with you in a sense on this topic of how the youngsters were used. Yes, you are right, players like Bradley played all the time and he rarely took his main pieces off the field. But guess what? When the youngsters came in they had moments off the bench and when they did start games they had use. They were not acting a damn fool and looking completely out of place. Shaffleburg had great moments under Vanney. The game against Atlanta at home in 2019 comes to mind. Priso and Nelson were not ready for prime time minutes but they got professional experience in some games & were eased into the process correctly. They were not thrown into the deep end and now being labelled as the whipping boys of this team.

3. Ok, let's talk about Vanney as a coach. In 2016, Vanney makes excellent vet signings in Will Johnson Drew Moor & Steven Beitashour. They win the Eastern Conference Final and everyone knows they should have won the MLS Cup. Moving on to 2017, Vanney gets this team hungry and motivated & they go on to win the treble, set a points record and be solidified as the best team in MLS history. Fast forward to 2018 & after going all out and winning everything, and setting records, they get to the champions league final which they should have won but unfortunately Delgado fucked up. Marky, I will forever hate you for that. Do you really think I give a damn about what happened in the league in 2018. Vanney helped put Toronto on the map due his unprecedented success in 2017 and awesome run in the champions league. No one gives damn what happened in the league for 2018. You mentioned Vanney's time at LA Galaxy, and I know he'll get it together. This is because like you stated the signs of promise are evident but he just needs to fine tune some things. When it comes to making adjustments and fine tuning things, Greg Vanney does a solid job. Honestly, just give it time. I wish we could have held onto him but that's life and football.

4. Ok, let's address your statement on those players that were taking away minutes from younger guys. All these players you listed had roles to play in team's success during Vanney's tenure. Also those 3 young guys you stated were not ready for prime time.

Zavaleta- Probably the player that I hated the most at TFC but you can't deny a fact that the he played a role in 2016 and even started in 2016 MLS Cup Final that we should have won. He a few decent moments with a lot of his bad ones. I even had a guy at my Men's League in 2016 tell me that he rates him.

Delgado- Again, I can never forgive him for that miss in the champions league final. He really wasn't my favorite player because I believe you could find a player like that in South America who will provide more on the cheap. At the end of the day, you cannot deny his role on the team as a facilitator & his ability to cover ground. There were moments were he would come off for Priso so Bradley and Ralph would play the double pivot and there was some promise. You got people right now crying for Marky to come back into this team. He did have value and Priso & Okello should have been taking notes from the bench so they would a bit more equipped for prime time now. He would be considered an experience MLS vet to watch and learn from.

Deleon- A great role player for the team who had his some moments. Obviously, scored that banger against Atlanta to get us to another final. Again, this guy wasn't robbing ridiculous minutes from those guys you listed. He was role a role player who played his part in a team that should have lifted MLS Cup in 2019. He got a lot hate on his COVID stance but he made the right decision and I fully agree with him.

Mullins- Yes, obviously with Dwyer their 2021 seasons were horrid. But let me tell you something. He still scored in both 2019 & 2020 under Vanney. In addition, he helped us qualify for the 2020 MLS Cup Playoffs & the 2020 Canadian Championship Final. You talked about taking minutes away from the youngsters. Let me tell you something. Jordan Peruzza ain't shit. Period!!! He's a CPL player at best. This is why he's been loaned all over place and really doesn't have a place in this league.

Endoh- A player who I at first thought was knicking a living but proved his worth in this team during his tenure. Also, was really happy for his success as an Asian player trying to make his mark in this league. Played his role in helping us win the Canadian Championship in 2017. Later, gets kicked off the first team and is lights out in USL so he comes back. In 2019, Endoh scores the fastest goal in club history against Atlanta where we win the game 3-2. Had another solid game against a top LAFC. Finally, plays a role in the 2019 MLS Cup playoff run and Vanney has no choice but to start him in the final which we should have won in 2019. I'm sorry but Shaffelburg wasn't doing the stuff that Endoh was doing to warrant taking his spot. Still, Vanney gave Shaffelburg moments in 2019 which was the right way to do it & ease him correctly.

Ok, let me wrap this up. The true TFC fans know that this team should realistically have 3 MLS Cups & a Champions League title. You could even argue the 2020 League Title. Vanney took a bunch of expired players & almost wheeled them to the title in 2020. In my heart, I thought they would do it but that's football. Greg Vanney was a master at taking the players he had at his disposal and getting the best out them. Finally, he managed the youth situation adequately by giving kids moments in games alongside the vets. He did not through them in the deep end like Bob Bradley where they go out and make fools themselves. He was able to manage club success while implementing the youth in the best way he could.

Now, let me put a bow on this to end this coaching debate right now. Raheem Edwards played for both Bob Bradley and Greg Vanney. He played an excellent role in our unprecedented treble success with Greg Vanney in 2017. He looked decent with Bob Bradley in 2021. Edwards had a choice to choose between coming home to Toronto with Bob Bradley or stay in LA and play under Vanney. People were begging for this guy to come back home. Hmm.. I wonder what made his decision so easy? Under Greg Vanney, Raheem Edwards has been lights out. If I'm not mistaken he was league leader in assists this season at one point. Oh, and his play at LA under Vanney was so good that  Mr. John Herdman calls him up after what 5 years. Edwards gets called up during a time where this country is on the rise, there is depth in his position, and gems are popping out of nowhere constantly. Wow, I wonder why?

I rest my case.

Edited July 5, 2022 by anthony7

[Bison44]

Hmmm, Vanney makes the excellent 2016 signings (not the bad ones) but earlier you claimed Vanney didnt control the signing like you claim Bradley does...hmmmmmm, almost stopped reading there.   And people are crying for Delgado to come back......at north of 700K???  Holy crap..100% stopped reading after that.  Great rant though, good stamina.  

[anthony7]

13 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Hmmm, Vanney makes the excellent 2016 signings (not the bad ones) but earlier you claimed Vanney didnt control the signing like you claim Bradley does...hmmmmmm, almost stopped reading there.   And people are crying for Delgado to come back......at north of 700K???  Holy crap..100% stopped reading after that.  Great rant though, good stamina.  

Ok, let me help you. These are signings that came in which both management and Vanney approved off. Obviously, management got to make the final decision. Buddy, people on Twitter are missing this guy. I don't want him but I'm just reflecting what the fans are saying. Also, its ok if you don't want to read all of it because the truth hurts.

Edited July 5, 2022 by anthony7

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, anthony7 said:

Sorry, your completely wrong with everything you just stated.

1. Let me elaborate on Jordan Hamilton when I stated, "wasn't doing jack shit". As striker or #9 you get judged on how many goals you score and that's fine. Guess what? As a #9 it isn't always about the goals you score its also about the other attributes of your game. Are you linking up with your teammates, can you hold the ball up, what are you doing off ball, can you drop deep and create space and opportunities for others etc..... I'm sorry, but Hamilton wasn't really doing much of that. Fine, Hamilton would score some goals here and there but it was not prolific enough to warrant keeping him and to look past the other the things that were missing in his game. I also want to say I like Hamilton and was rooting for him and i hope he gets back into MLS somehow because he could be a good depth piece if he adds more to his game.

2. I disagree with you in a sense on this topic of how the youngster were used. Yes, you are right, players like Bradley played all the time and he rarely took his main pieces off the field. But guess what? When the youngsters came in they had moments off the bench and when they did start games they had use. They were not acting a damn fool and looking completely out of place. Shaffleburg had great moments under Vanney. The game against Atlanta at home in 2019 comes to mind. Priso and Nelson were not ready for prime time minutes but they got professional experience in some games & were eased into the process correctly. They were not thrown into the deep end and now being labelled as the whipping boys of this team.

3. Ok, let's talk about Vanney as a coach. In 2016, Vanney makes excellent vet signings in Will Johnson Drew Moor & Steven Beitashour. They win the Eastern Conference Final and everyone knows they should have won the MLS Cup. Moving on to 2017, Vanney gets this team hungry and motivated & they go on to win the treble, set a points record and be solidified as the best team in MLS history. Fast forward to 2018 & after going all out and winning everything, and setting records, they get to the champions league final which they should have won but unfortunately Delgado fucked up. Marky, I will forever hate you for that. Do you really think I give a damn about what happened in the league in 2018. Vanney helped put Toronto on the map due his unprecedented success in 2017 and awesome run in the champions league. No one gives damn what happened in the league for 2018. You mentioned Vanney's time at LA Galaxy, and I know he'll get together. This is because like you stated the signs of promise are evident but he just needs to fine tune some things. When it comes to making adjustments and fine tuning things, Greg Vanney does a solid job. Honestly, just give it time. I wish we could have held onto him but that's life and football.

4. Ok, let's address your statement on those players that were taking away minutes from younger guys. All these players you listed had roles to play in team's success during Vanney's tenure. Also those 3 young guys you stated were not ready for prime time.

Zaveleta- Probably the player that I hated the most at TFC but you can't deny a fact that the he played a role in 2016 and even started in 2016 MLS Cup Final that we should have won. He a few decent moments with a lot of his bad ones. I even had a guy at my Men's League in 2016 tell me that he rates him.

Delgado- Again, I can never forgive him for that miss in the champions league final. He really wasn't my favorite player because I believe you could find a player like that in South America who will provide more on the cheap. At the end day, you cannot deny his role on the team as a facilitator & his ability to cover ground. There were moments were he would come off for Priso so Bradley and Ralph would play the double pivot and there was some promise. You got people right now crying for Marky to come back into this team. He did have value and Priso & Okello should have been taking notes from the bench so they would a bit more equipped for prime time now. He would be considered an experience MLS vet to watch and learn from.

Deleon- A great role player for the team who had his some moments. Obviously, scored that banger against Atlanta to get us to another final. Again, this guy wasn't robbing ridiculous minutes from those guys you listed. He was role a role player who played his part in a team that should have lifted MLS Cup in 2019. He got a lot hate on his COVID stance but he made the right decision and I fully agree with him.

Mullins- Yes, obviously with Dwyer their 2021 seasons were horrid. Let me tell you something. He still scored in both 2019 & 2020 under Vanney. In addition, he helped us qualify for the 2020 MLS Cup Playoffs & the 2020 Canadian Championship Final. You talked about taking minutes away from the youngsters. Let me tell you something. Jordan Peruzza ain't shit. Period!!! He's a CPL player at best. This is why he's been loaned all over place and really doesn't have a place in this league.

Enodh- A player who I at first thought was knicking a living but proved his worth in this team during his tenure. Also, was really happy for his success as an Asian player trying to make his mark in this league. Played his role in helping us win the Canadian Championship in 2017. Later, gets kicked off the first team and is lights out USL so he comes back. In 2019, Endoh scores the fastest goal in club history against Atlanta where we win the game 3-2. Had another solid game against a top LAFC. Finally, plays a role in the 2019 MLS Cup playoff run and Vanney has no choice but to start him in the final which we should have won in 2019. I'm sorry but Shaffelburg wasn't doing the stuff that Endoh was doing to warrant taking his spot. Still, Vanney gave Shaffelburg moments in 2019 which was the right way to do it & ease him correctly.

Ok, let me wrap this up. The true TFC fans know that this team should realistically have 3 MLS Cups & a Champions League title. You could even argue the 2020 League Title. Vanney took a bunch of expired players & almost wheeled them to the title in 2020. In my heart, I thought they would do it but that's football. Greg Vanney was a master at taking the players he had at his disposal and getting the best out them. Finally, he managed the youth situation adequately by giving kids moments in games alongside the vets. He did not through them in the deep end like Bob Bradley where they go out and make fools themselves. He was able to manage club success while implementing the youth in the best way he could.

Now, let me put a bow on this to end this coaching debate right now. Raheem Edwards played for both Bob Bradley and Greg Vanney. He played an excellent role in our unprecedented treble success with Greg Vanney in 2017. He looked decent with Bob Bradley in 2021. Edwards had a choice to choose between coming home to Toronto with Bob Bradley or stay in LA and play under Vanney. People were begging for this guy to come back home. Hmm.. I wonder what made his decision so easy? Under Greg Vanney, Raheem Edwards has been lights out. If I'm not mistaken he was league leader in assists this season at one point. Oh, and his play at LA under Vanney was so good that  Mr. John Herdman calls him up after what 5 years. Edwards gets called up during a time where this country is on the rise, there is depth in his position, and gems are popping out of nowhere constantly. Wow, I wonder why?

I rest my case.

Ah I see.

In rebuttal:

*Moves goalposts 20 kilometers down the road*

I rest my case.

(See, I can do it too).

[FC_Hali]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:24 PM, ag futbol said:

FCD is not the best example. They are persistent bottom dwellers in attendance and have a mostly empty trophy case. It’s nice as a nats fan to stand back and appreciate their youth development but if you were forced to follow that team season to season you’d be annoyed at best.

if you’re going to use an MLS example use RBNY. At least they win things while giving youth an opportunity

 

My point was that Toronto is a talent hotbed and that TFC has yet to materially benefit (in the context of developing national team caliber players or selling players to Europe) despite investing in their academy more than most clubs. 

[El Hombre]

Now that I have a bit more time, I can address this in more detail:

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Sorry, your completely wrong with everything you just stated.

1. Let me elaborate on Jordan Hamilton when I stated, "wasn't doing jack shit". As striker or #9 you get judged on how many goals you score and that's fine. Guess what? As a #9 it isn't always about the goals you score its also about the other attributes of your game. Are you linking up with your teammates, can you hold the ball up, what are you doing off ball, can you drop deep and create space and opportunities for others etc..... I'm sorry, but Hamilton wasn't really doing much of that. Fine, Hamilton would score some goals here and there but it was not prolific enough to warrant keeping him and to look past the other the things that were missing in his game. I also want to say I like Hamilton and was rooting for him and i hope he gets back into MLS somehow because he could be a good depth piece if he adds more to his game.

So, now that the stats clearly don't support your case, you are changing the meaning of what you meant?  Not surprising.  Also, not prolific enough?  He had the second best scoring rate on the team and only played half the season.  I'm not sure if you understand what prolific means.  Either way, you originally said that Hamilton did "jack shit".  The numbers don't support that.  He was having a decent season in 2019.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

2. I disagree with you in a sense on this topic of how the youngsters were used. Yes, you are right, players like Bradley played all the time and he rarely took his main pieces off the field. But guess what? When the youngsters came in they had moments off the bench and when they did start games they had use. They were not acting a damn fool and looking completely out of place. Shaffleburg had great moments under Vanney. The game against Atlanta at home in 2019 comes to mind. Priso and Nelson were not ready for prime time minutes but they got professional experience in some games & were eased into the process correctly. They were not thrown into the deep end and now being labelled as the whipping boys of this team.

Yes, Shaffelburg showed well in 2019.  Why then did he play all of 140 minutes in 2020?  There were times when a clearly struggling Morrow was preferred in an advanced position over Shaffleburg (all while Gallacher was playing LB).  The same happened with Nelson.  I had a long post in his thread about how Vanney's strategy with young players was really not doing them any favours.  There were numerous instances of young players getting some game time and that is then followed by weeks of nothing, and this was regardless of how they played.  If someone comes on and does a job, you bring them on again otherwise you risk destroying their confidence.  If you think they were brought along well, then I'm not sure you have a decent grasp of how to nurture players.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

3. Ok, let's talk about Vanney as a coach. In 2016, Vanney makes excellent vet signings in Will Johnson Drew Moor & Steven Beitashour. They win the Eastern Conference Final and everyone knows they should have won the MLS Cup. Moving on to 2017, Vanney gets this team hungry and motivated & they go on to win the treble, set a points record and be solidified as the best team in MLS history. Fast forward to 2018 & after going all out and winning everything, and setting records, they get to the champions league final which they should have won but unfortunately Delgado fucked up. Marky, I will forever hate you for that. Do you really think I give a damn about what happened in the league in 2018. 

Oh, so league results don't matter?  Cool.  Good to know.  Not sure what you're upset about then.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

You mentioned Vanney's time at LA Galaxy, and I know he'll get it together. This is because like you stated the signs of promise are evident but he just needs to fine tune some things. When it comes to making adjustments and fine tuning things, Greg Vanney does a solid job. Honestly, just give it time. I wish we could have held onto him but that's life and football.

So Vanney gets time but Bob Bradley should be shuttled out the door after 4 months?  Your bias is showing. 

Also, I already told you Vanney is a "win-now" coach.  He does a decent job with what he has but it's very high-risk, high-reward.  It can fail just as easily as it can succeed as has been seen.  Also, his "adjustments" consist of bringing in the players he is comfortable with like Victor Vazquez.  He does not build teams for long-term or consistent success.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

4. Ok, let's address your statement on those players that were taking away minutes from younger guys. All these players you listed had roles to play in team's success during Vanney's tenure. Also those 3 young guys you stated were not ready for prime time.

So earlier you said they looked good but now they're not ready for prime time?  Interesting.  None of the three broke 200 minutes in 2020.  Even during the injuries and stumble to the finish line in the fall of 2020? 

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Zavaleta- Probably the player that I hated the most at TFC but you can't deny a fact that the he played a role in 2016 and even started in 2016 MLS Cup Final that we should have won. He a few decent moments with a lot of his bad ones. I even had a guy at my Men's League in 2016 tell me that he rates him.

One decent year gets you that much rope?  Must be nice.  That is the issue with Vanney in a nutshell.  Players that do a job for him at one point become his regulars even after they are past it.  He's ride-or-die with his horses and that is the problem.  He does not have succession planning so that his teams don't go through those valleys.  A coach with a clue would blood guys from his bench so that they can take over.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Delgado- Again, I can never forgive him for that miss in the champions league final. He really wasn't my favorite player because I believe you could find a player like that in South America who will provide more on the cheap. At the end of the day, you cannot deny his role on the team as a facilitator & his ability to cover ground. There were moments were he would come off for Priso so Bradley and Ralph would play the double pivot and there was some promise. You got people right now crying for Marky to come back into this team. He did have value and Priso & Okello should have been taking notes from the bench so they would a bit more equipped for prime time now. He would be considered an experience MLS vet to watch and learn from.

Which people are crying out for him right now?  I'm concerned with the football acumen of the people you hang out with.  Some rate Zavaleta, others are crying out for Delgado....

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Deleon- A great role player for the team who had his some moments. Obviously, scored that banger against Atlanta to get us to another final. Again, this guy wasn't robbing ridiculous minutes from those guys you listed. He was role a role player who played his part in a team that should have lifted MLS Cup in 2019. He got a lot hate on his COVID stance but he made the right decision and I fully agree with him.

The guy had the 8th most minutes on the team in 2019 and 10th most in 2020.  That's not a role player.  That is a regular.  Why would Vanney give so many minutes to just a "role player"?

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Mullins- Yes, obviously with Dwyer their 2021 seasons were horrid. But let me tell you something. He still scored in both 2019 & 2020 under Vanney. In addition, he helped us qualify for the 2020 MLS Cup Playoffs & the 2020 Canadian Championship Final. You talked about taking minutes away from the youngsters. Let me tell you something. Jordan Peruzza ain't shit. Period!!! He's a CPL player at best. This is why he's been loaned all over place and really doesn't have a place in this league.

So Mullins scored in 2019 and 2020?  That's great.  Good to know.  So, scoring is important now because earlier when we were talking about Hamilton scoring wasn't important?

Also, who's talking about Perruzza?  I thought we were talking about Hamilton.  Again, your bias is showing.  "Don't worry, give Vanney some time" vs "Fuck this 21 year old, he'll never be anything".  Personally, I've been disappointed with Perruzza's performances but I don't think it makes sense to write him off.

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Endoh- A player who I at first thought was knicking a living but proved his worth in this team during his tenure. Also, was really happy for his success as an Asian player trying to make his mark in this league. Played his role in helping us win the Canadian Championship in 2017. Later, gets kicked off the first team and is lights out in USL so he comes back. In 2019, Endoh scores the fastest goal in club history against Atlanta where we win the game 3-2. Had another solid game against a top LAFC. Finally, plays a role in the 2019 MLS Cup playoff run and Vanney has no choice but to start him in the final which we should have won in 2019. I'm sorry but Shaffelburg wasn't doing the stuff that Endoh was doing to warrant taking his spot. Still, Vanney gave Shaffelburg moments in 2019 which was the right way to do it & ease him correctly.

It's funny that you highlight Endoh's goal against Atlanta as a highlight and then go on to talk about how Shaffleburg wasn't shit.  Who set up Endoh's record breaking goal?

The reason why I brought up Endoh is that he was given chance after chance after chance at TFC.  Now that his coach is gone, where is he?  Struggling to make the teamsheet in the Australian A-League.  Pretty sure his team just cut ties with him as well, so if he doesn't catch on anywhere after TFC, was he really that good?  Wasn't that similar to the proof that Hamilton was overrated?  

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Ok, let me wrap this up. The true TFC fans know that this team should realistically have 3 MLS Cups & a Champions League title. You could even argue the 2020 League Title. Vanney took a bunch of expired players & almost wheeled them to the title in 2020. In my heart, I thought they would do it but that's football. Greg Vanney was a master at taking the players he had at his disposal and getting the best out them. Finally, he managed the youth situation adequately by giving kids moments in games alongside the vets. He did not through them in the deep end like Bob Bradley where they go out and make fools themselves. He was able to manage club success while implementing the youth in the best way he could.

So, true TFC fans know that this team should have had 3 MLS Cups and a Champions League title?  But they only pulled out one MLS cup?  And this means Vanney is a great coach?  I don't follow the logic there.  Seems to me he underachieved. 

12 hours ago, anthony7 said:

Now, let me put a bow on this to end this coaching debate right now. Raheem Edwards played for both Bob Bradley and Greg Vanney. He played an excellent role in our unprecedented treble success with Greg Vanney in 2017. He looked decent with Bob Bradley in 2021. Edwards had a choice to choose between coming home to Toronto with Bob Bradley or stay in LA and play under Vanney. People were begging for this guy to come back home. Hmm.. I wonder what made his decision so easy? Under Greg Vanney, Raheem Edwards has been lights out. If I'm not mistaken he was league leader in assists this season at one point. Oh, and his play at LA under Vanney was so good that  Mr. John Herdman calls him up after what 5 years. Edwards gets called up during a time where this country is on the rise, there is depth in his position, and gems are popping out of nowhere constantly. Wow, I wonder why?

I rest my case.

Once again, very interesting that you are using Raheem Edwards to prove your point.  A couple things for consideration:

1 - When Edwards signed with LAFC, (January 7th, 2022), Richie Laryea and Auro were still on the books for TFC.  If he was looking for playing time, competing with those two might've been tough.  He was also given a three year contract by LAFC which I'm sure factored into things.

2 - Y'know who else played under both?  Mark-Anthony Kaye.  Bradley invested in youth and now we have a stalwart in midfield whereas Vanney was happy to let him walk out the door for nothing as a 21 year old.

It's quite clear you rate Vanney.  That's great.  He's a decent coach if you go out and mortgage your future on three big DPs.  If they stay healthy, you'll get good results but god forbid something happens because he has no Plan B.  Like I said, high risk, high reward and definitely not one for building a team for long term success.

That was fun.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

Now that I have a bit more time, I can address this in more detail:

So, now that the stats clearly don't support your case, you are changing the meaning of what you meant?  Not surprising.  Also, not prolific enough?  He had the second best scoring rate on the team and only played half the season.  I'm not sure if you understand what prolific means.  Either way, you originally said that Hamilton did "jack shit".  The numbers don't support that.  He was having a decent season in 2019.

Yes, Shaffelburg showed well in 2019.  Why then did he play all of 140 minutes in 2020?  There were times when a clearly struggling Morrow was preferred in an advanced position over Shaffleburg (all while Gallacher was playing LB).  The same happened with Nelson.  I had a long post in his thread about how Vanney's strategy with young players was really not doing them any favours.  There were numerous instances of young players getting some game time and that is then followed by weeks of nothing, and this was regardless of how they played.  If someone comes on and does a job, you bring them on again otherwise you risk destroying their confidence.  If you think they were brought along well, then I'm not sure you have a decent grasp of how to nurture players.

Oh, so league results don't matter?  Cool.  Good to know.  Not sure what you're upset about then.

So Vanney gets time but Bob Bradley should be shuttled out the door after 4 months?  Your bias is showing. 

Also, I already told you Vanney is a "win-now" coach.  He does a decent job with what he has but it's very high-risk, high-reward.  It can fail just as easily as it can succeed as has been seen.  Also, his "adjustments" consist of bringing in the players he is comfortable with like Victor Vazquez.  He does not build teams for long-term or consistent success.

So earlier you said they looked good but now they're not ready for prime time?  Interesting.  None of the three broke 200 minutes in 2020.  Even during the injuries and stumble to the finish line in the fall of 2020? 

One decent year gets you that much rope?  Must be nice.  That is the issue with Vanney in a nutshell.  Players that do a job for him at one point become his regulars even after they are past it.  He's ride-or-die with his horses and that is the problem.  He does not have succession planning so that his teams don't go through those valleys.  A coach with a clue would blood guys from his bench so that they can take over.

Which people are crying out for him right now?  I'm concerned with the football acumen of the people you hang out with.  Some rate Zavaleta, others are crying out for Delgado....

The guy had the 8th most minutes on the team in 2019 and 10th most in 2020.  That's not a role player.  That is a regular.  Why would Vanney give so many minutes to just a "role player"?

So Mullins scored in 2019 and 2020?  That's great.  Good to know.  So, scoring is important now because earlier when we were talking about Hamilton scoring wasn't important?

Also, who's talking about Perruzza?  I thought we were talking about Hamilton.  Again, your bias is showing.  "Don't worry, give Vanney some time" vs "Fuck this 21 year old, he'll never be anything".  Personally, I've been disappointed with Perruzza's performances but I don't think it makes sense to write him off.

It's funny that you highlight Endoh's goal against Atlanta as a highlight and then go on to talk about how Shaffleburg wasn't shit.  Who set up Endoh's record breaking goal?

The reason why I brought up Endoh is that he was given chance after chance after chance at TFC.  Now that his coach is gone, where is he?  Struggling to make the teamsheet in the Australian A-League.  Pretty sure his team just cut ties with him as well, so if he doesn't catch on anywhere after TFC, was he really that good?  Wasn't that similar to the proof that Hamilton was overrated?  

So, true TFC fans know that this team should have had 3 MLS Cups and a Champions League title?  But they only pulled out one MLS cup?  And this means Vanney is a great coach?  I don't follow the logic there.  Seems to me he underachieved. 

Once again, very interesting that you are using Raheem Edwards to prove your point.  A couple things for consideration:

1 - When Edwards signed with LAFC, (January 7th, 2022), Richie Laryea and Auro were still on the books for TFC.  If he was looking for playing time, competing with those two might've been tough.  He was also given a three year contract by LAFC which I'm sure factored into things.

2 - Y'know who else played under both?  Mark-Anthony Kaye.  Bradley invested in youth and now we have a stalwart in midfield whereas Vanney was happy to let him walk out the door for nothing as a 21 year old.

It's quite clear you rate Vanney.  That's great.  He's a decent coach if you go out and mortgage your future on three big DPs.  If they stay healthy, you'll get good results but god forbid something happens because he has no Plan B.  Like I said, high risk, high reward and definitely not one for building a team for long term success.

That was fun.

Much respect for taking the time and effort to shut down each and every bogus point that was made in defence of Vanney.

[El Hombre]

37 minutes ago, costarg said:

Much respect for taking the time and effort to shut down each and every bogus point that was made in defence of Vanney.

You didn't read the whole thing did you?  I pity the fool that has to slog through that. 

 

[dyslexic nam]

[canuckgbp]

37 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

You didn't read the whole thing did you?  I pity the fool that has to slog through that. 

 

Need something to read while on the throne 

[El Hombre]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Let me summarize for you: I'm right.

In fact, that should be the default.

[Free kick]

The best way to help and support these kids and by extension Canadian soccer is not to throw these kids out there amongst seasoned pros and showering them with false praise all the while blaming the seasoned players or foreigners for the loses. Seasoned players, who have proven themselves with trophies and other awards and acclaim or in some case international experience (ie>: WC finals experience) are being singled out when we lose but with some ppl, these kids can do no wrong and have to protected from criticism and any kind of fair assessment of their abilities and potential.

I would never have bought season seats on the morning of the first ever sale for TFC Season seats way back in 2006 or 2007 if i didn't think that there wouldn't be benefits to our international fortunes in having a team in MLS. But this experiment of trotting out a bunch of unproven Canadian teenagers (or near teenagers) ALL AT ONCE has been a failure and waste of time. Its even been a failure for the players your trying to develop.  Some of these guys may never be pros. One, JMR, might be a a true stud. One or two others might eventually become a decent MLS player, and rest probably wont make it and that's the law averages.   There is also that "We should just have more camps" crowd which is the same as the "We should just have more friendlies" crowd or the "just play the kids" crowds.  Its the false notion seemingly that everybody has what it takes to be the next Messi, its just a matter of playing/practicing more.  WELL some of them dont have it, in fact a lot of them dont have it.   Thats professional sports.  As time passes,  and losses mount, its becoming evident that some of these kids dont have it.  

Collectively, Right now, except for Akinola (and JMR for different reasons) I don't see how any of them are helping, in fact, they are hindering the team and the success of the sport locally.  Just go look at the standings and look at how the attendance has dropped from approx 28-30K back in 2016-19 to 25K nowadays, 21K last Saturday.  I dont pay season seats and want to haul my ass down there to watch an experiment either. Or to watch in action an academy for the national team.  How many ppl who actually crap on what Vanney has achieved ( and defend this latest stupid approach), actually live in the GTA or are actually SSH's. This experiment is the main reason we are losing, not because of the veterans.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Free kick

[costarg]

36 minutes ago, Free kick said:

The best way to help and support these kids and by extension Canadian soccer is not to throw these kids out there amongst seasoned pros and showering them with false praise all the while blaming the seasoned players or foreigners for the loses. Seasoned players, who have proven themselves with trophies and other awards and acclaim or in some case international experience (ie>: WC finals experience) are being singled out when we lose but with some ppl, these kids can do no wrong and have to protected from criticism and any kind of fair assessment of their abilities and potential.

I would never have bought season seats on the morning of the first ever sale for TFC Season seats way back in 2006 or 2007 if i didn't think that there wouldn't be benefits to our international fortunes in having a team in MLS. But this experiment of trotting out a bunch of unproven Canadian teenagers (or near teenagers) ALL AT ONCE has been a failure and waste of time. Its even been a failure for the players your trying to develop.  Some of these guys may never be pros. One, JMR, might be a a true stud. One or two others might eventually become a decent MLS player, and rest probably wont make it and that's the law averages.   There is also that "We should just have more camps" crowd which is the same as the "We should just have more friendlies" crowd or the "just play the kids" crowds.  Its the false notion seemingly that everybody has what it takes to be the next Messi, its just a matter of playing/practicing more.  WELL some of them dont have it, in fact a lot of them dont have it.   Thats professional sports.  As time passes,  and losses mount, its becoming evident that some of these kids dont have it.  

Collectively, Right now, except for Akinola (and JMR for different reasons) I don't see how any of them are helping, in fact, they are hindering the team and the success of the sport locally.  Just go look at the standings and look at how the attendance has dropped from approx 28-30K back in 2016-19 to 25K nowadays, 21K last Saturday.  I dont pay season seats and want to haul my ass down there to watch an experiment either. Or to watch in action an academy for the national team.  How many ppl who actually crap on what Vanney has achieved ( and defend this latest stupid approach), actually live in the GTA or are actually SSH's. This experiment is the main reason we are losing, not because of the veterans.

So much of this is wrong dude, just look at TFC's neighbors CFM for the perfect example and comparison.  The stands are filling up specifically due to the young local boys and the winning.

Are you saying Sir Alex and Man U also got it wrong when they were playing their young golden generation?  Vanney hurt these kids futures, CANMNT, as well as TFC's future just to help himself in the moment.  He literally gave up years of success to have that one excellent season.  With that roster and payroll anything less than a dynasty is a failure.

Players don't recover from not playing those crucual 18-21 years.  If you won't play them, let them go.